How would the NFL handle this tie breaker

[MrTed46]

This is for the last 2 spots in the Wild Card.

 

Team 1 and Team 2 same division

Team 3 different division.

 

Team 1, 2, 3 same conference

 

Team 1 split with Team 2 but Team 1 has more division wins

Team 2 beat Team 3

Team 3 beat Team 1

 

According to this:

http://www.nfl.com/standings/tiebreakingprocedures

 

TO BREAK A TIE FOR THE WILD-CARD TEAM

If it is necessary to break ties to determine the two Wild-Card clubs from each conference, the following steps will be taken.

 

If the tied clubs are from the same division, apply division tie breaker.

 

TO BREAK A TIE WITHIN A DIVISION

If, at the end of the regular season, two or more clubs in the same division finish with identical won-lost-tied percentages, the following steps will be taken until a champion is determined.

 

Two Clubs

Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games between the clubs).

Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the division.

 

Team 1 beat out Team 2 no? But then Team 2 beat Team 3 and Team 3 beat Team 2.

 

Does anyone know?

Edited December 6, 2011 by MrTed46

[Big Country]

If following NFL rules, I believe that you first break the divisional tie between 1 and 2. As the split head to hea, you go to division record. Your post seems to indicate that Team 1 has the better division record.

 

Now you compare Team 1 vs. Team 3 for the wild card spot. As team 3 beat team 1 in head to head, Team 3 gets the wild card spot.

 

 

This kind of illustrates why, at least in my opinion, for fantasy football purposes head to head record and even division record are poor options for determining a tiebreaker. As the teams are not actually on thefield facing each other, a single week really is not a good indicator of what team was better overall, it just shows who had a higher score in a given week. I prefer using points scored as the first tiebreaker as, other than winning your games, points scored really is the primary goal and a much better indicator of what team was better over the course of a season.

Edited December 6, 2011 by Big Country

[MrTed46]

Sorry I meant 2 wild cards spots

[delusions of grandeur]

Sorry I meant 2 wild cards spots

It's the same deal, you just seed them 1 at the time. The Falcons are actually in this situation, should they end up tied with both the Bears and Detroit (which is awesome, because they'd make the playoffs no matter what if there are 2 spots up for grabs, holding the tie-breaker over Detroit.)

 

First you apply the division tie-breaker, where team 1 has the better division record than team 2. That eliminates team 2 from consideration for the first seed in question, and it goes down to the 2 team tie-breaker rules between teams 1 and 3. Team 3 would get the first of the two seed by beating them H2H.

 

Now, we're down to 2 division teams for the other spot (team 1 and team 3), so you have to again start with the division tie-breaker. Team 1 would get the nod with the better division record.... Note: this is only becuase the teams are in division. If the 2 teams weren't, then it would come down to H2H for the second spot.

 

So it's team 3 (#5) and Team 1 (#6)

 

 

(Edit: got 1 and 2 mixed up; fixed now)

Edited December 6, 2011 by delusions of granduer

[Big Country]

Here are the full rules for wild card seeding.

 

TO BREAK A TIE FOR THE WILD-CARD TEAM

If it is necessary to break ties to determine the two Wild-Card clubs from each conference, the following steps will be taken.

 

1.If the tied clubs are from the same division, apply division tie breaker.

2.If the tied clubs are from different divisions, apply the following steps.

 

(BC's Note: I believe line item 1 only applies if ALL teams are from the same division. I come to this conclusion based on some of the steps below)

 

Two Clubs1.Head-to-head, if applicable.

2.Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference.

3.Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games, minimum of four.

4.Strength of victory.

5.Strength of schedule.

6.Best combined ranking among conference teams in points scored and points allowed.

7.Best combined ranking among all teams in points scored and points allowed.

8.Best net points in conference games.

9.Best net points in all games.

10.Best net touchdowns in all games.

11.Coin toss.

 

 

Three or More Clubs

(Note: If two clubs remain tied after third or other clubs are eliminated, tie breaker reverts to step 1 of applicable two-club format.)

 

1.Apply division tie breaker to eliminate all but the highest ranked club in each division prior to proceeding to step 2. The original seeding within a division upon application of the division tie breaker remains the same for all subsequent applications of the procedure that are necessary to identify the two Wild-Card participants.

2.Head-to-head sweep. (Applicable only if one club has defeated each of the others or if one club has lost to each of the others.)

3.Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference.

4.Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games, minimum of four.

5.Strength of victory.

6.Strength of schedule.

7.Best combined ranking among conference teams in points scored and points allowed.

8.Best combined ranking among all teams in points scored and points allowed.

9.Best net points in conference games.

10.Best net points in all games.

11.Best net touchdowns in all games.

12.Coin toss

When the first Wild-Card team has been identified, the procedure is repeated to name the second Wild-Card, i.e., eliminate all but the highest-ranked club in each division prior to proceeding to step 2. In situations where three or more teams from the same division are involved in the procedure, the original seeding of the teams remains the same for subsequent applications of the tie breaker if the top-ranked team in that division qualifies for a Wild-Card berth.

 

 

As we have 3 teams, we go to step 1 of the Three or more teams rules. In it, it says to rank any teams within a division, so that only one team per division is being compared. In this case (division tiebreak rules pasted below), Team 1 beats Team 2, thus we compare Team 1 to Team 3 in the 2 Teams tied rules. First tiebreak is head to head, which Team 3 won, thus Team 3 gets the first wild card spot.

 

TO BREAK A TIE WITHIN A DIVISION

If, at the end of the regular season, two or more clubs in the same division finish with identical won-lost-tied percentages, the following steps will be taken until a champion is determined.

 

Two Clubs

1.Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games between the clubs).

2.Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the division.

3.Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games.

4.Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference.

5.Strength of victory.

6.Strength of schedule.

7.Best combined ranking among conference teams in points scored and points allowed.

8.Best combined ranking among all teams in points scored and points allowed.

9.Best net points in common games.

10.Best net points in all games.

11.Best net touchdowns in all games.

12.Coin toss

 

 

We now have 2 teams left to compare. As they are from the same division, we go to division tiebreak rules (above). Team 1 still beats Team 2 for division purposes, thus Team 1 gets the 2nd wild card spot.

[Big Country]

It's the same deal, you just seed them 1 at the time. The Falcons are actually in this situation, should they end up tied with both the Bears and Detroit (which is awesome, because they'd make the playoffs no matter what if there are 2 spots up for grabs, holding the tie-breaker over Detroit.)

 

First you apply the division tie-breaker, where team 2 has the better division record than team 1. That eliminates team 1 from consideration for the first seed in question, and it goes down to the 2 team tie-breaker rules between teams 2 and 3. Team 2 would get the first of the two seed by beating them H2H.

 

Now, we're down to 2 non-division teams for the other spot (team 1 and team 3), so now we go straight to the H2H tie-breaker. Team 3 beat Team 1, so Team 3 would get the second spot.

 

 

This, except DoG has the divisional records reversed.. Team 1 has the better division record, not Team 2. Result is that Team 3 gets wild card spot 1 and then Team 1 gets wild card spot 2.

[delusions of grandeur]

This, except DoG has the divisional records reversed.. Team 1 has the better division record, not Team 2. Result is that Team 3 gets wild card spot 1 and then Team 1 gets wild card spot 2.

I realized that, and edited it to reflect the correct answer, I think.

[Pope Flick]

Here are the full rules for wild card seeding.

 

TO BREAK A TIE FOR THE WILD-CARD TEAM

If it is necessary to break ties to determine the two Wild-Card clubs from each conference, the following steps will be taken.

 

1.If the tied clubs are from the same division, apply division tie breaker.

2.If the tied clubs are from different divisions, apply the following steps.

 

(BC's Note: I believe line item 1 only applies if ALL teams are from the same division. I come to this conclusion based on some of the steps below)

 

Two Clubs1.Head-to-head, if applicable.

2.Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference.

3.Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games, minimum of four.

4.Strength of victory.

5.Strength of schedule.

6.Best combined ranking among conference teams in points scored and points allowed.

7.Best combined ranking among all teams in points scored and points allowed.

8.Best net points in conference games.

9.Best net points in all games.

10.Best net touchdowns in all games.

11.Coin toss.

 

 

Three or More Clubs

(Note: If two clubs remain tied after third or other clubs are eliminated, tie breaker reverts to step 1 of applicable two-club format.)

 

1.Apply division tie breaker to eliminate all but the highest ranked club in each division prior to proceeding to step 2. The original seeding within a division upon application of the division tie breaker remains the same for all subsequent applications of the procedure that are necessary to identify the two Wild-Card participants.

2.Head-to-head sweep. (Applicable only if one club has defeated each of the others or if one club has lost to each of the others.)

3.Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference.

4.Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games, minimum of four.

5.Strength of victory.

6.Strength of schedule.

7.Best combined ranking among conference teams in points scored and points allowed.

8.Best combined ranking among all teams in points scored and points allowed.

9.Best net points in conference games.

10.Best net points in all games.

11.Best net touchdowns in all games.

12.Coin toss

When the first Wild-Card team has been identified, the procedure is repeated to name the second Wild-Card, i.e., eliminate all but the highest-ranked club in each division prior to proceeding to step 2. In situations where three or more teams from the same division are involved in the procedure, the original seeding of the teams remains the same for subsequent applications of the tie breaker if the top-ranked team in that division qualifies for a Wild-Card berth.

 

 

As we have 3 teams, we go to step 1 of the Three or more teams rules. In it, it says to rank any teams within a division, so that only one team per division is being compared. In this case (division tiebreak rules pasted below), Team 1 beats Team 2, thus we compare Team 1 to Team 3 in the 2 Teams tied rules. First tiebreak is head to head, which Team 3 won, thus Team 3 gets the first wild card spot.

 

TO BREAK A TIE WITHIN A DIVISION

If, at the end of the regular season, two or more clubs in the same division finish with identical won-lost-tied percentages, the following steps will be taken until a champion is determined.

 

Two Clubs

1.Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games between the clubs).

2.Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the division.

3.Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games.

4.Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference.

5.Strength of victory.

6.Strength of schedule.

7.Best combined ranking among conference teams in points scored and points allowed.

8.Best combined ranking among all teams in points scored and points allowed.

9.Best net points in common games.

10.Best net points in all games.

11.Best net touchdowns in all games.

12.Coin toss

 

 

We now have 2 teams left to compare. As they are from the same division, we go to division tiebreak rules (above). Team 1 still beats Team 2 for division purposes, thus Team 1 gets the 2nd wild card spot.

 

 

I posted something similar in a different thread, but that version of the rules I posted were from the old 3 division per conference setup, which might be a bit more relevant here, if this is the most recent version.

 

The interesting thing about the ones I posted is that essentially the NFL decides on a clear 'second place' team from each division that moves forward to the next tie breaker step. That's where it gets a bit icky for FF purposes.

[stevegrab]

I posted something similar in a different thread, but that version of the rules I posted were from the old 3 division per conference setup, which might be a bit more relevant here, if this is the most recent version.

 

The interesting thing about the ones I posted is that essentially the NFL decides on a clear 'second place' team from each division that moves forward to the next tie breaker step. That's where it gets a bit icky for FF purposes.

 

 

Correct, that is how it is supposed to work in NFL. I think MrTed may have missed the piece a ways down in the rules that starts with

TO BREAK A TIE FOR THE WILD-CARD TEAM

 

 

We've had the debate in other threads, and I understand how some feel (BC specifially) that doing the NFL way is wrong. But if you're going to award a division winner based on one set of rules (if tied overall use division record), why not use that as a means for selecting the next best team in each division to select between multiple teams in deciding the wild card. That is how we do it, but turns out it didn't matter as the only teams tied by overall record were all in different divisions, so it came down to total points. (Funny thing was, one team was 5-6-2 and others were 6-7 and our rules DO specifically state that a tie is 1/2 loss and 1/2 win, so 2 ties equals one win and one loss).

[Pope Flick]

Correct, that is how it is supposed to work in NFL. I think MrTed may have missed the piece a ways down in the rules that starts with

TO BREAK A TIE FOR THE WILD-CARD TEAM

 

 

We've had the debate in other threads, and I understand how some feel (BC specifially) that doing the NFL way is wrong. But if you're going to award a division winner based on one set of rules (if tied overall use division record), why not use that as a means for selecting the next best team in each division to select between multiple teams in deciding the wild card. That is how we do it, but turns out it didn't matter as the only teams tied by overall record were all in different divisions, so it came down to total points. (Funny thing was, one team was 5-6-2 and others were 6-7 and our rules DO specifically state that a tie is 1/2 loss and 1/2 win, so 2 ties equals one win and one loss).

 

 

My local is thinking about dropping the "find the second place team in each division before going to the next step" portion and lumping all identical record teams together, look at H2H then go to points for next year. Once youcompromise head to head too early, then you really f up the system and should go either all play/all record of total points league.

[stevegrab]

My local is thinking about dropping the "find the second place team in each division before going to the next step" portion and lumping all identical record teams together, look at H2H then go to points for next year. Once youcompromise head to head too early, then you really f up the system and should go either all play/all record of total points league.

 

We just went to 3 divisions of 4 teams (from 2x6) this year and didn't really think about some of these issues before the vote. So my co-commish and I sat down and reviewed NFL rules (we've always went with a "when in doubt we'll do it the NFL way). However we eliminated H2H long ago for numerous a few reasons and I generally have trouble accepting H2H when comparing more than two teams.

 

I understand the desire to use total points or some more equitable criteria after overall record, but then why not do that for division winner instead of using division record (which I think is what BC was advocating in another thread). This just makes it simpler, our division standings have a built in ranking (overall record, divison record, total points) so it is easy to look at the standings and see who is first, second etc in each division.

 

Still a good discussion which is making me consider other view points.