bushwacked Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Exactly. You're talking about production as if he's a seasoned vet, not a developmental prospect in the middle of his second year. You really seem to be trying to argue for argument sake. Baldwin is a rookie. Deon Bulter was drafted a year before Tate and has sat out the last full calender year with injuries. Between Butler, Baldwin, and Tate; Tate has produced less than all three of them. Everyone is aware of Tate's talent and that he now has an opportunity by default. That still doesn't change the fact Tate has been the worst WR on the team during his career despite having less than stellar competition for playing time. Everyone on the active depth chart at WR had done more than Tate over nearly the last two seasons. There is reason for that. One would think the next Steve Smith would be able to do more at this point in his career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delusions of grandeur Posted December 8, 2011 Author Share Posted December 8, 2011 (edited) You really seem to be trying to argue for argument sake. Baldwin is a rookie. Deon Bulter was drafted a year before Tate and has sat out the last full calender year with injuries. Between Butler, Baldwin, and Tate; Tate has produced less than all three of them. Everyone is aware of Tate's talent and that he now has an opportunity by default. That still doesn't change the fact Tate has been the worst WR on the team during his career despite having less than stellar competition for playing time. Everyone on the active depth chart at WR had done more than Tate over nearly the last two seasons. There is reason for that. One would think the next Steve Smith would be able to do more at this point in his career. No, I'm really not... I just think you're jumping the gun in comparing what Tate has done so far in his short career to what he might be capable of... Miles Austin is the first WR that comes to mind of a guy who did absolutely nothing early in his career, until in his 4th year, an injury to Roy Williams earned him the start, and he set the world on fire. I'm trying to think back on who was starting at Dallas besides RW prior to that, but I don't remember it being such stiff competition that he couldn't have leaped the depth chart if he had shown he was ready to break out. Jordy Nelson had done very little prior to this year. Wes Welker didn't do much before he got to NE. Roddy White never got it together until his third year. Laurent Robinson has been a total bust until this year, despite having an incredibly easy path to be the #2 in both ATL and STL. I don't mean these to be direct comparisons, but I can assure you that all of those players would have earned targets if their coaches felt they were ready to be big producers for them... And I believe none of them were a converted RB who came in as raw as Tate was known to be, or were facing such stiff competition that they couldn't earn significant targets if they were ready.... (ETA: all that said, it's a wait and see if he can continue to produce, but the point is that it's far too early to say that Baldwin in particular is a better prospect than Tate.... That's like saying that Michael Jenkins was a better WR prospect than Roddy when he was the #1) Edited December 8, 2011 by delusions of granduer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balzac Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 there's a pretty long list of WRs who didn't break out until their 3rd year - that used to be a "thing" in FF circles (i.e., sites would hype WRs in the draft when they were coming into their 3rd year) until a couple years ago, if memory serves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawks21 Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 (edited) The easy comparison would be Steve Smith. He did nothing for quite a while as well, but wasn't taken as highly as Tate. The one thing that has yet to be taken into account is the doghouse factor. I personally believe that Tate is the player Carroll has used to make an example out of, to show the rest of the locker room that he isn't soft. He even went as far as to bench Tate or poor play IN THE PRESEASON. For Carroll not to get walked all over by his players since he is such a friendly player's coach, he needs to show them that there are consequences for not falling in line. Tate has been the sacrificial lamb. Tate has been so far in the doghouse for his time in Seattle that it is almost a minor miracle to see him crawling out. He is growing up though. He quit smoking reefer a few months ago and started hanging out with teammates and team employees, rather the posse he was hanging out with early his rookie year. He even sounds like a professional when interviewed now. He's taken his lumps and is trying to turn the corner. I think this injury or Rice is really going to give him a shot, but even then, I just don't know that there is enough in Seattle's passing game to make him a startable fantasy player for the rest of this year or next. Edited December 10, 2011 by Seahawks21 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balzac Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 I need a measely 3.7 points from the fool tonight, so hopefully he sees another 50 snaps. I also have Baldwin, who has been more consistent, but that abysmal snap count from him last week is making me think Tate is the way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 (edited) Targets seemed about even tonight between Baldwin and Tate, but it seemed obvious Tavaris and Tate are not in sync, with Baldwin obviously having a much better game FF wise and on the field. If Tate gets significant targets next year, it will likely be due to injuries or Mike Williams being cut. Not sure what WR got the most snaps, but I'll let Taz fill everyone in on that. Edited December 13, 2011 by bushwacked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 I truthfully thought Tate would have a significant game today. I can't really be mad he had two redzone targets (from what I saw) and I deep boom that almost connected. Plus he play a decent amount of snaps. Opportunities where there to be had but as bushwacked mentioned they just weren't in sync. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 (edited) I truthfully thought Tate would have a significant game today. I can't really be mad he had two redzone targets (from what I saw) and I deep boom that almost connected. Plus he play a decent amount of snaps. Opportunities where there to be had but as bushwacked mentioned they just weren't in sync. It seems to me there was a lot of undue optimism after Tate made one highlight reel catch in the back of the endzone on a pass protection scramble play and a lack of understanding that he may have been reduced to fighting someone who recently came off the PUP for being nothing more than a special teams player, if not for the injuries to Williams and Rice (granted a lot of ifs and conjecture in that one sentence). I could be wrong, but it seems they aren't very many modern day 5' 10" WRs that consistently produce in the NFL unless they master the slot position? It's obvious that Baldwin has lapped Tate several times over in that position with lesser opportunities. Tate lost his position on the depth chart to Baldwin early on in the season. Despite the "snap counts" it's fairly obvious to this homer the next three games may represent the best chance for Tate to prove he belongs in the NFL. I've yet to see anything besides athletic potential with questionable mental fortitude. And Carroll has given up on a lot of guys with potential early on in Seattle (granted they were Ruskell guys). Edited December 13, 2011 by bushwacked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balzac Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Anyone got those snap counts from last night? Looked to me like Tate was on the field a lot more, but SEA makes a point of going to Baldwin when he's in there. I'm thinking last week's game, with the low snap count and targets, was the anomaly . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpwallace49 Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 It doesn't matter how many snaps Tate plays if he can't get open. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delusions of grandeur Posted December 13, 2011 Author Share Posted December 13, 2011 It seems to me there was a lot of undue optimism after Tate made one highlight reel catch in the back of the endzone on a pass protection scramble play and a lack of understanding that he may have been reduced to fighting someone who recently came off the PUP for being nothing more than a special teams player, if not for the injuries to Williams and Rice (granted a lot of ifs and conjecture in that one sentence). I could be wrong, but it seems they aren't very many modern day 5' 10" WRs that consistently produce in the NFL unless they master the slot position? It's obvious that Baldwin has lapped Tate several times over in that position with lesser opportunities. Tate lost his position on the depth chart to Baldwin early on in the season. Despite the "snap counts" it's fairly obvious to this homer the next three games may represent the best chance for Tate to prove he belongs in the NFL. I've yet to see anything besides athletic potential with questionable mental fortitude. And Carroll has given up on a lot of guys with potential early on in Seattle (granted they were Ruskell guys). I thought your first post was much more fair, and will eat crow and admit that I underestimated Baldwin... He still might not have as much potential upside as Rice or Tate, but is clearly a very good player... I didn't see all of Tate's targets last night, but I agree with your initial assessment that it appeared to be more a matter of him and Jackson not being on the same page on the ones they didn't connect on (not sure who was to blame on those throws, but they certainly weren't in a place to be catchable). I also agree that Tate still needs to show that he belongs in the NFL in these next 3 games, but I'm not sure that last night told any more of the story about him than his career has so far... The guy's apparently been working really hard to get himself on the field, so we'll see if he can start to take real advantage of these opportunities with increased targets... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delusions of grandeur Posted December 13, 2011 Author Share Posted December 13, 2011 It doesn't matter how many snaps Tate plays if he can't get open. What plays did he not get open on? The shot to him near the endzone was overthorwn, and while I missed a couple of his targets, I don't think being open was the issue, like it was him and Jackson not being on the same page yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazinib1 Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Not sure what WR got the most snaps, but I'll let Taz fill everyone in on that. Tate by a wide margin. 56 snaps Next closest was Mike Williams with 32. Baldwin garnered 30 snaps. Even on passing downs, Tate got 10 more snaps than any WR. 22 snaps on running plays as well. He's becoming quite the down field blocker. I like the way they are building confidence in the kid. We'll see how he progresses next year in offensive production in terms of targets/catches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpwallace49 Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Tate by a wide margin. 56 snaps Next closest was Mike Williams with 32. Baldwin garnered 30 snaps. Even on passing downs, Tate got 10 more snaps than any WR. 22 snaps on running plays as well. He's becoming quite the down field blocker. I like the way they are building confidence in the kid. We'll see how he progresses next year in offensive production in terms of targets/catches. Now how does that compare with targets? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balzac Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Now how does that compare with targets? 8-7, baldwin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 So, just to revisit this thread for those Tate owners; from weeks 12 through 17, targets, TDs, receptions, and receiving yards were pretty much even between Tate and Baldwin. Mike Williams didn't play the last 2 games, giving anyone/someone a chance to step up. If anyone did show high play potential in that time it was speedster Ricardo Locette. So, I don't know what to think moving forward. I think it's very possible Williams gets cut opening up the door further for Tate. I also think the opposite is possible. Free agency and drafting is also a component. We shall see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 and to complicate matters... sidney rice has his salary fully guaranteed next year, despite being a physical mess. I was trying to make that an obvious point for why Tate even got playing time in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazinib1 Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 I was trying to make that an obvious point for why Tate even got playing time in the first place. It was fun watching him progress and interesting seeing his snap counts increase every week. I'll be watching this one with more interest than others since I spent so much time researching his ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday Couch Potatoe Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 It was fun watching him progress and interesting seeing his snap counts increase every week. I'll be watching this one with more interest than others since I spent so much time researching his ass. It's like your GOLDEN ticket..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazinib1 Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 It's like your GOLDEN ticket..... My GOLDEN ticket will always be Stew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday Couch Potatoe Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 My GOLDEN ticket will always be Stew Of course it is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 It was fun watching him progress and interesting seeing his snap counts increase every week. Yup, watching him catch 1 pass for every 25 snaps counts was an absolute gas. We up here in Seattle haven't stopped talking about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpwallace49 Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Yup, watching him catch 1 pass for every 25 snaps counts was an absolute gas. We up here in Seattle haven't stopped talking about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazinib1 Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Yup, watching him catch 1 pass for every 25 snaps counts was an absolute gas. We up here in Seattle haven't stopped talking about it. More than watching T.Jackson trying to throw it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 My GOLDEN ticket shower will always be Stew Fixed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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