i_am_the_swammi Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I'd like to understand why a lot of people are liking the Giants in this game. Keep it competitive, possibly cover, maybe. Win? They will need to play the game of their lives and hope GB slips up here and there. The Giants are playing better, yes, but they have not been tested these past few weeks by a truly elite opponent, and looked pretty flat to start yesterday's contest. Do that at Lambeau and they'll be down 21 before your second beer. Their defense (specifically, the DL) is playing better than at any time this season, putting pressure on opposing QBs at an alarming rate. Knowing that GB relies on precision passing and timing routes, and that they are injured along the OL and have zero running game to threaten defenses.....the Giants Dl could have a field day disrupting the Packers....if there is a defense the Packers have already faced that is as similar to what the Giants are able to do with their DL/LBs, its the Chiefs. They blitzed and put pressure on the Packers like they hadn't seen all season, and it worked....I expect the Giants to do the same. On offense, two Pro Bowl QBs going head to head, and while Rodgers gets the nod here, I think I'd take the Giants 3 WRs of Nicks/Cruz/Manningham over the Packers threesome of Jennings/Nelson/Jones. Running game? Advantage Giants. The Giants should be able to score some points here, and to a degree, control time of possession. The factor going against the Giants? Cold weather/wind (which always seems to affect Manning), home field, turnovers. That should be enough to tip the scales to the Packers, who i think do win going away in the 4th quarter....but to say you don't get why people are starting to back the Giants? I could certainly see a scenario or two that, based on the above, the Giants could pull this out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt770 Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Dude, I agree. But whatever the reason a lot of people like the Giants to keep it close and have a shot. I have seen it all over. I think people are up on the Giants right now (2007 plays into that I think), and people are a little down on GB with the L at KC, a poor D, and the Giants playing them toe to toe in week 13. I do think it is too much Giant love though. We shall see. I'll say this, 2007/2008 makes me believe they at least have a chance. After they were so inconsistent that year, I did not think for a second they would win at Dallas, at GB and then vs. the undefeated Pats. I was floored when they did it, still am. It taught me a team can get hot at the right time and shock the world. This GB team I think is probably better than all three of those opponents that year, so it's going to be extremely difficult to win even if the Giants play a really good game. But I'll be tuned in and more hopeful than I ever would have been in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Just jumping in to relay a bit of info I heard on the radio yesterday. I don't bet on games, so I really don't pay that much attention to it, but I heard that Las Vegas really lost their ass on the Saints this weekend and for the year. They said that the Saints beat the over & the spread for every home game they had this year and that folks were lining up in droves & laying big money on the Saints to do it again this past weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt770 Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Just jumping in to relay a bit of info I heard on the radio yesterday. I don't bet on games, so I really don't pay that much attention to it, but I heard that Las Vegas really lost their ass on the Saints this weekend and for the year. They said that the Saints beat the over & the spread for every home game they had this year and that folks were lining up in droves & laying big money on the Saints to do it again this past weekend. Crap, I need to get out there before they tear it all down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giantsfan Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I'll say this, 2007/2008 makes me believe they at least have a chance. After they were so inconsistent that year, I did not think for a second they would win at Dallas, at GB and then vs. the undefeated Pats. I was floored when they did it, still am. It taught me a team can get hot at the right time and shock the world. This GB team I think is probably better than all three of those opponents that year, so it's going to be extremely difficult to win even if the Giants play a really good game. But I'll be tuned in and more hopeful than I ever would have been in the past. Well said...agree for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Dude, I agree. But whatever the reason a lot of people like the Giants to keep it close and have a shot. I have seen it all over. I think people are up on the Giants right now (2007 plays into that I think), and people are a little down on GB with the L at KC, a poor D, and the Giants playing them toe to toe in week 13. I do think it is too much Giant love though. We shall see. What people think, or believe based on betting, talking heads, etc. really doesn't matter. If the line came out Packers -3 would that mean even more people believe the Giants will win. Like Matt770 & detlef I don't buy players getting motivated based on what the masses think will happen. Bulletin board material from the other team (if JPP is saying the Giants will win) maybe. But the lines, the betting action, and some believe that your average NFL fan thinks GB can be beat, sorry that isn't affecting how GB plays or what happens in the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cunning Runt Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Of the spreads shown, I like NO to cover 3.5pts and beating the 49ers by double digits. And I like the Texans. I think that one will be low-scoring and close throughout. I don't see the Ravens winning by 8. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delusions of grandeur Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Their defense (specifically, the DL) is playing better than at any time this season, putting pressure on opposing QBs at an alarming rate. I think the fact that they can generate pressure without necesarily having to blitz is going to be plus for the Giants, but although you can rattle guys like Eli, Ryan or even Brees with big pressure, Rodgers is just too good at getting the ball out quickly or scrambling. I noticed the opposite with Ryan yesterday, that while he's scrambling just to throw the ball away, guys like Rodgers or Ben (when healthy) scramble to find and hit an open guy (or in Rodgers case can simply take off running too)... I still expect the game to come down to whether the Giants can keep matching GB in points, because you're not just going to shut them out all day at Lambeau, and if Rodgers can keep escaping the pressure, he can easily exploit the weaker back end of that defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giantsfan Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 What people think, or believe based on betting, talking heads, etc. really doesn't matter. If the line came out Packers -3 would that mean even more people believe the Giants will win. Like Matt770 & detlef I don't buy players getting motivated based on what the masses think will happen. Bulletin board material from the other team (if JPP is saying the Giants will win) maybe. But the lines, the betting action, and some believe that your average NFL fan thinks GB can be beat, sorry that isn't affecting how GB plays or what happens in the game. We will agree to disagree. Like I said, do I think GB wins because of people picking the Giants to win, or talking about 2007, or saying the Giants will keep it close and have a great chance...NO. But do I believe hearing that all week will keep GB focused a little more and lowers the chance of them coming out flat...I do. Maybe I am just using myself as an example too much...who knows...but if I were a GB player, at 15-1, defending champs, rested, home, and hearing a lot of Giant love it would certainly have my attention and have me extra focused and ready to come out fired up at the start. But again that is me. I don't think the Packers win because of that at all. Just gives a little extra focus IMO. Nothing crazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Atlanta ONLY scoring 2pts Maybe if they trade up in the draft for an explosive WR they can put up some points in a playoff game next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delusions of grandeur Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Maybe if they trade up in the draft for an explosive WR they can put up some points in a playoff game next year. As you saw yesterday, it's not gonna matter with that O-line and Mularkey calling plays. They killed every bit of momentum the Falcons had in that game. When Ryan was running out of the no-huddle, he was 9 for 11, and it's clear that the calls on 4th and 1 were what really changed momentum in the Giants favor. Disappointing that Ryan and the targets couldn't put the team on their back anyway, but you'd be foolish to think that a couple draft picks would have made any more of a difference yesterday... They need to fire Mularkey, and find O-linemen that can do a better job of offsetting the loss of Dahl, who really took the heart out of the line when he left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 (edited) As you saw yesterday, it's not gonna matter with that O-line and Mularkey calling plays. They killed every bit of momentum the Falcons had in that game. When Ryan was running out of the no-huddle, he was 9 for 11, and it's clear that the calls on 4th and 1 were what really changed momentum in the Giants favor. Disappointing that Ryan and the targets couldn't put the team on their back anyway, but you'd be foolish to think that a couple draft picks would have made any more of a difference yesterday... They need to fire Mularkey, and find O-linemen that can do a better job of offsetting the loss of Dahl, who really took the heart out of the line when he left. Good luck with that given they traded away every draft pick they had that could possibly net them that player. That was the discussion I was having with a Falcon fan here in the office this morning. You've completely sold yourself out thinking that Julio was going to get you over the hump when that isn't even what you're best at. You needed to shore up your offensive line & draft for defense (specifically DL & DB) to slow down the defenses like NO & GB... not trade everything for one player so that you might be able to keep up. You already had a great running game & great play-action. Ryan isn't the type of guy who is going to consistently air it out every game. I agree, they do need to fire Mularkey. but I also think that the Falcons need to take a serious look at Dimitroff and decide if he is really taking your team in the right direction because with a single draft pick he has put Atlanta in a very deep hole. FWIW, I'm trying to say this as an unbiased fan. I had to tell the guy in the office the same thing, that i wasn't just trying to rub it in. Believe me, I'm thankful for it, but Saints fan aside, I honestly think the Falcons made a grave error in trading up for Jones. Edited January 9, 2012 by rajncajn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giantsfan Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 They also need a coach who kicks a FG instead of continually going for it on 4th and short. The first 4th down was a bad call to go for it. The 2nd one was an AWFUL call to go for it IMO. Add those to the NO game 4th down, and Smith has some work to do with regards to when to kick a FG/punt. And maybe try a different play than a QB sneak. Ryan looked lost on those plays yesterday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delusions of grandeur Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Believe me, I'm thankful for it, but Saints fan aside, I honestly think the Falcons made a grave error in trading up for Jones. And what elite linemen are they going to get in the late first and late second? I don't think they would have been able to keep all the O-linemen (well, maybe they could have if they didn't pick up Edwards worthless ass). I will agree they made a mistake of putting their faith in several guys, including Dunta Robinson, who hopefully should open up some cap room when they cut his overpaid worthless butt... I'm not trying to get back into debating the Julio move with you, because only time will tell how worth it he was; But no, I just don't see how you could point to a bunch of questionable rookie picks (even with complete hindsight), and say yeah, they clearly would have done much better in the playoffs if they had these guys.... It's easy to say now that it didn't work out for this playoff run, but I have an incredibly hard time saying that the Falcons would be so much better off using the picks on guys with far more question marks to even help at all... At least you can argue that the Falcons still made the playoffs in a year where they clearly had a lot of baggage and were two-faced. Without Julio they might not have even made it, the way the line and playcalling left Ryan a sitting duck back there. Something beyond Ryan and the recievers is wrong when they outgain the Saints in yards and get blown out like they did in the Superdome, but I don't think they're in as big of trouble if they get a better OC and the O-line gets experience (and hopefully someone in FA). They did actually improve this year, but just not enough yet to stop lines like the Giants from having their way all day... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delusions of grandeur Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 They also need a coach who kicks a FG instead of continually going for it on 4th and short. The first 4th down was a bad call to go for it. The 2nd one was an AWFUL call to go for it IMO. Add those to the NO game 4th down, and Smith has some work to do with regards to when to kick a FG/punt. And maybe try a different play than a QB sneak. Ryan looked lost on those plays yesterday. I agree, they were big time momentum changers that the Giants were able to build on. It really lit a spark under both the NYG defense and offense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Disappointing that Ryan and the targets couldn't put the team on their back anyway, but you'd be foolish to think that a couple draft picks would have made any more of a difference yesterday... They need to fire Mularkey, and find O-linemen that can do a better job of offsetting the loss of Dahl, who really took the heart out of the line when he left. Huh, the Hawks O-line improved dramatically this season, in large part to James Carpenter who was picked at 1.25 and John Moffit picked at 3.11 in the 2011 draft. Odd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 And what elite linemen are they going to get in the late first and late second? I don't think they would have been able to keep all the O-linemen (well, maybe they could have if they didn't pick up Edwards worthless ass). I will agree they made a mistake of putting their faith in several guys, including Dunta Robinson, who hopefully should open up some cap room when they cut his overpaid worthless butt... I'm not trying to get back into debating the Julio move with you, because only time will tell how worth it he was; But no, I just don't see how you could point to a bunch of questionable rookie picks (even with complete hindsight), and say yeah, they clearly would have done much better in the playoffs if they had these guys.... It's easy to say now that it didn't work out for this playoff run, but I have an incredibly hard time saying that the Falcons would be so much better off using the picks on guys with far more question marks to even help at all... At least you can argue that the Falcons still made the playoffs in a year where they clearly had a lot of baggage and were two-faced. Without Julio they might not have even made it, the way the line and playcalling left Ryan a sitting duck back there. Something beyond Ryan and the recievers is wrong when they outgain the Saints in yards and get blown out like they did in the Superdome, but I don't think they're in as big of trouble if they get a better OC and the O-line gets experience (and hopefully someone in FA). They did actually improve this year, but just not enough yet to stop lines like the Giants from having their way all day... The thing is, I think they would have made the playoffs even without Julio. They may not have gone any further, but that's not the point. In the other thread that we discussed this I listed several immediate-impact players that the Falcons would have been better off with & still gotten a very good complimentary WR to go with White. Who knows if they would have gotten any of those players had they not traded up, but that's still not the point either. What they've robbed themselves of is 1st, 2nd, 3rd & 4th round talent. Players that, even if they don't make that immediate impact you're referring to, they still have the talent to be developed in a year or two and be starters and possibly give Atlanta that push they need after this season or even are ready to contribute late in the season. How often do you see FAs really have that big of an impact and not break the bank at the same time? For that matter, how often do you see teams let their premier offensive linemen walk and when they do it's even less often that they pan out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delusions of grandeur Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 (edited) Huh, the Hawks O-line improved dramatically this season, in large part to James Carpenter who was picked at 1.25 and John Moffit picked at 3.11 in the 2011 draft. Odd. So what you're saying is that the Seahawks took a solid O-lineman before the Falcons picked in the first. So not only did they not know if he'd be available by their pick, he wasn't... Then you're saying that the Falcons should have reached on a guy in the 2nd that the Seahawks, who were targetting the guy weren't even willing to do (they opted to trade out of the pick to take him in the 3rd), then that makes perfect sense . Instead of taking Julio, the Falcons should have taken an O-lineman that wasn't avialable at their first pick, and/or one that would have been a hugh reach with their second pick. Gotcha! Edited January 9, 2012 by delusions of granduer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 So what you're saying is that the Seahawks took a solid O-lineman before the Falcons picked in the first. So not only did they not know if he'd be available by their pick, he wasn't... Then you're saying that the Falcons should have reached on a guy in the 2nd that the Seahawks, who were targetting the guy weren't even willing to do (they opted to trade out of the pick to take him in the 3rd), then that makes perfect sense . Instead of taking Julio, the Falcons should have taken an O-lineman that wasn't avialable at their first pick, and/or one that would have been a hugh reach with their second pick. Gotcha! I'm thinking moving up two spots might have cost them a little less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delusions of grandeur Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 The thing is, I think they would have made the playoffs even without Julio. They may not have gone any further, but that's not the point. In the other thread that we discussed this I listed several immediate-impact players that the Falcons would have been better off with & still gotten a very good complimentary WR to go with White. Who knows if they would have gotten any of those players had they not traded up, but that's still not the point either. What they've robbed themselves of is 1st, 2nd, 3rd & 4th round talent. Players that, even if they don't make that immediate impact you're referring to, they still have the talent to be developed in a year or two and be starters and possibly give Atlanta that push they need after this season or even are ready to contribute late in the season. How often do you see FAs really have that big of an impact and not break the bank at the same time? For that matter, how often do you see teams let their premier offensive linemen walk and when they do it's even less often that they pan out. I get it dude, and the loss yesterday does make for some doubts about how owrth it he was... I'm jsut not going to be convinced by some hypotheticals that it would have made any marked difference in the Falcons issues... But as it stands, they got an every-few-years WR that they might never again be in a position to obtain, rather than a bunch of lottery tickets. There was no keeping Dahl, and the defense played well in the NYG game, considering they got no help from the offense and Grimes was out... You get rid of Mularkey and give those O-lineman some experience (and don't forget the Falcons do still have a 2nd rounder this year), and the team could be way more ready to compete for a Lombardi.... I don't think you could say the same by taking a Jimmy Smith and Greg Little... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I get it dude, and the loss yesterday does make for some doubts about how owrth it he was... I'm jsut not going to be convinced by some hypotheticals that it would have made any marked difference in the Falcons issues... But as it stands, they got an every-few-years WR that they might never again be in a position to obtain, rather than a bunch of lottery tickets. There was no keeping Dahl, and the defense played well in the NYG game, considering they got no help from the offense and Grimes was out... You get rid of Mularkey and give those O-lineman some experience (and don't forget the Falcons do still have a 2nd rounder this year), and the team could be way more ready to compete for a Lombardi.... I don't think you could say the same by taking a Jimmy Smith and Greg Little... I've gotta say, I disagree, but I certainly have to hand it to you for your optimism. I hope you're wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 So what you're saying is that the Seahawks took a solid O-lineman before the Falcons picked in the first. So not only did they not know if he'd be available by their pick, he wasn't... Then you're saying that the Falcons should have reached on a guy in the 2nd that the Seahawks, who were targetting the guy weren't even willing to do (they opted to trade out of the pick to take him in the 3rd), then that makes perfect sense . Instead of taking Julio, the Falcons should have taken an O-lineman that wasn't avialable at their first pick, and/or one that would have been a hugh reach with their second pick. Gotcha! No, what I'm saying is that your homerism is obviously influencing your desperate rationalization for last years draft day trade. Your claim of immediate impact players not being available late in the first round or later is patently false. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delusions of grandeur Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I've gotta say, I disagree, but I certainly have to hand it to you for your optimism. I hope you're wrong. Not really optimism as much as recognizing that you weren't going to shore up the other weaknesses enough to make the Falcons a contender. You fix the secondary, and Brees and Rodgers still have a field day, especially with Grimes out. You could argue that the pass rush could have used help, but they didn't lose that Giants game, as Abe had a big impact, and Spoon and Lofton made plays... The biggest mistake there was trusting Edwards to not be worthless... And say you really did shore up these areas, the Falcons would still be mediocre in explosive plays with a Little, Moore or Torry Smith. The Falcons didn't just need a deep guy, that's not Ryan's strength, and Little is still WAY too raw to be a difference maker yet. They needed an immediate impact YAC guy to go along with White as a possession WR, and they got one who's 6'4 with a 40 inch vertical. There's little doubt that they made a mistake in thinking they could do it Peyton Manning style and win by surrounding Ryan with more weapons, but I still just don't think those other guys would have made the Falcons any better than middle of the pack, and this is looking at it in hindsight.... At the time, there was far more risk that you could strike out on those picks, than there was that Julio wasn't a "can't miss" WR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I'm thinking moving up two spots might have cost them a little less. Funny you mention that, Seattle unsuccessfully tried to trade down because Carpenter was projected as a 2nd rounder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delusions of grandeur Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 (edited) No, what I'm saying is that your homerism is obviously influencing your desperate rationalization for last years draft day trade. Your claim of immediate impact players not being available late in the first round or later is patently false. No the part you bolded was that "it wouldn't have made a difference yesterday", and I believe that, even though there's no way to prove it. IMO, they'd improve the O-line but still struggle to put up points with less weapons against a great pass rush.. I didn't say there were no immediate impact players, but there were no clear ones like Julio. It's easy to say with hindsight that this 4th rounder was really worth more, but there's no way of knowing that the Falcons would have fared any better with those picks. And again, the O-lineman you mentioned wasn't available, and the other one your own team felt was a reach in the second. Why would the Seahawks risk waiting until the 3rd for Moffit, if they felt he was such a can't miss pick in the second? I could probably argue how every time struck out on a pick by drafting one guy over another, but that's far easier to say with hindsight than at the time (and even with hindsight, you have no way of knowing that they would have made the difference). Edited January 9, 2012 by delusions of granduer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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