Chavez Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 The exact question was "If the Giants win, is Eli a lock for the HOF?".... As you've highlighted here, I don't think you can jsut toss the rest of his career to the side and base it on 2 superbowls, the most recent of which he only even had a chance to play in because his defense got healthy.... When the defense was banged up, the Giants almost missed the playoffs... But yes, the fact that it's even a question of whether he's a "lock" does indeed show that people put far too much stock in rings being an individual accomplishment... I'll take career stats first, and then playoff and superbowl wins second when deciding who I think is HOF-worthy... The former means Eli needs a few more statistically dominant seasons to be a HOFer in my book. Oh, I agree - but the thing here is we're going by OUR standards, not the voters. And history suggests that Manning with two rings has a better-than-most chance of going to the HoF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonsoxandy Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Two things: (1) The chances that the Giants actually beat the Patriots are incredibly small. Belichick's record when going against a team that beat him the last time they faced off is 24-6 or 80% win percentage. What makes this match-up against the Giants even better is that the Pats have lost to the Giants consecutively in SBXLII, again in the pre-season in '08 (FWIW), beat them in pre-season '09, lost to them in '10 pre-season, lost to them in '11 pre-season, and lost to them in '11 regular season. That's 1-5 against the Giants including SBXLII. I know I'm counting meaningless pre-season games but I would be SHOCKED if they don't beat them. I mean as I said above, Belichick beats Team XYZ 4 out of 5 times if in their last game w/ Team XYZ they lost (not counting pre-season), (2) If the Giants do defy the odds again and win it all Eli has to be a HOF'er, barring any crazy unforeseen twist. Even if he just rides out the rest of his career by playing uninspired Eli-esque football he is HOF bound. Beating the NFL's version of the Yankees TWICE in the SB? And one of those times when the Pats were 18-0? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt770 Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Simms was a significant part of that Giants SB team - 11-3 as a starter. Morrall was a mistake on my part - I thought he had more to do with the Colts SB V season than he actually did. Besides, the question was "SB rings" not "victories as SB starter"; LOTS of QBs have 2 SB rings - Jim McMahon, Joe Gilliam, Mike Kruczek, Charlie Batch, etc - so if I really wanted to be pedantic I could've given a totally ridiculous list. I think for the sake of this discussion, "ring" assumes he played in the SB itself. Simms helped get them there for sure, but playing in the actual game and winning it is considered a milestone achievement. The highlights played over and over, the perfect spirals sailing in the air in slow motion with that dramatic music in the background...that stuff tends to immortalize players and put them into the HoF discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt770 Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Two things: (1) The chances that the Giants actually beat the Patriots are incredibly small. Belichick's record when going against a team that beat him the last time they faced off is 24-6 or 80% win percentage. What makes this match-up against the Giants even better is that the Pats have lost to the Giants consecutively in SBXLII, again in the pre-season in '08 (FWIW), beat them in pre-season '09, lost to them in '10 pre-season, lost to them in '11 pre-season, and lost to them in '11 regular season. That's 1-5 against the Giants including SBXLII. I know I'm counting meaningless pre-season games but I would be SHOCKED if they don't beat them. I mean as I said above, Belichick beats Team XYZ 4 out of 5 times if in their last game w/ Team XYZ they lost (not counting pre-season), I disagree that any of this amounts to a hill of beans. It's fascinating to find patterns, but really all that matters is the two teams that take the field, and their level of talent, motivation, preparation, and sprinkle in some luck. Everyone likes to elevate Belichick to this mythical figure which is understandable -- he's amazing...but what if he just doesn't have the players? There is only so much you can get out of your guys, I don't care how good you are. Also by citing all the recent wins by the Giants over the Pats, you're really just giving evidence to negate your theory. Maybe the Giants are just a better team, and maybe Coughlin has Belichick figured out (Have to agree here!!!1!!!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonsoxandy Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I disagree that any of this amounts to a hill of beans. It's fascinating to find patterns, but really all that matters is the two teams that take the field, and their level of talent, motivation, preparation, and sprinkle in some luck. Everyone likes to elevate Belichick to this mythical figure which is understandable -- he's amazing...but what if he just doesn't have the players? There is only so much you can get out of your guys, I don't care how good you are. Also by citing all the recent wins by the Giants over the Pats, you're really just giving evidence to negate your theory. Maybe the Giants are just a better team, and maybe Coughlin has Belichick figured out (Have to agree here!!!1!!!) To your idea that this Patriots team just doesn't have the players, I have to strongly disagree. This team features Gronkowski and Hernandez with star roles as well as Welker who had his best season ever which was also one of his quieter due to Gronk's breaking out party (122/1569/9), and you still have Tom Brady throwing the ball. From a pure statistical standpoint, Belichick has 2 unstoppable forces catching the ball with statlines of 90/1327/17 (gronk) and a 122/1569/9 (welker) and he has a QB who threw for a career-high 5235 yds along w/ 39 TD's which is 2nd-best in his career. Add in a dependable RB w/ 11 TD's and 0 fumbles in his career and I think he has as talented a group offensively as he ever has had. Defensively, they aren't very good but they are your classic bend don't break defense. As long as the offense gets going they will be fine. I guess you can see that the recent W/L between the Giants/Pats and interpret that as the Coughlin having Belichick figured out, but in reality I listed 3 pre-season defeats, the Super Bowl game, and an incredibly close game this season. I don't buy for one second that Coughlin has figured out Belichick, the man is impossible to figure out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt770 Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 To your idea that this Patriots team just doesn't have the players, I have to strongly disagree. This team features Gronkowski and Hernandez with star roles as well as Welker who had his best season ever which was also one of his quieter due to Gronk's breaking out party (122/1569/9), and you still have Tom Brady throwing the ball. From a pure statistical standpoint, Belichick has 2 unstoppable forces catching the ball with statlines of 90/1327/17 (gronk) and a 122/1569/9 (welker) and he has a QB who threw for a career-high 5235 yds along w/ 39 TD's which is 2nd-best in his career. Add in a dependable RB w/ 11 TD's and 0 fumbles in his career and I think he has as talented a group offensively as he ever has had. Defensively, they aren't very good but they are your classic bend don't break defense. As long as the offense gets going they will be fine. I guess you can see that the recent W/L between the Giants/Pats and interpret that as the Coughlin having Belichick figured out, but in reality I listed 3 pre-season defeats, the Super Bowl game, and an incredibly close game this season. I don't buy for one second that Coughlin has figured out Belichick, the man is impossible to figure out. Giants have a pretty great offense these days too, and a clear edge on defense. Brady and co. were held to 23 points by the Ravens and were lucky the game didn't go into overtime. The Giants held them to 20 points in their building, second fewest points the Pats scored in a game all year. Is Belichick holding back against teams he thinks he might face in the postseason to give them a false sense of security? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditkaless Wonders Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 I just hope his bust can accurately capture that silly, whiny, disappointed, confused, about to cry pout he sports so often during games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delusions of grandeur Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 I just hope his bust can accurately capture that silly, whiny, disappointed, confused, about to cry pout he sports so often during games. Na, that's just how cajuns look... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditkaless Wonders Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Na, that's just how cajuns look... I watch those gator hunting shows on the History channel and I have never noticed that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowboutthemCowboys Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 The Giants held them to 20 points in their building, second fewest points the Pats scored in a game all year. The stinkin "defense" Dallas rolled out this year held the Pats to 20 in their building as well. Means nothing. Only 2 teams gave up more passing yds than the Giants this year in the regular season Yep, credit where it's due they've played a few nice games in a row. If the Pats figure out a way to get Brady some time ( and Gronk is healthy) he will light them up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadDawg Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Soooooo .... let me get this straight ..... the discussion is about if Manning, and the rest of the G Men, pull off this win in the Super Bowl ... Manning gets his 2nd "ring" and he is now a likely first round selection to the HOF (for some of you believers). But .... if he tanks in this game and thus no "ring" .... he now will have to work his way back to a post season winning position to re-qualify himself as HOF material ...................................... Is that it in a nutshell for some of you ?? .... If it's that heavy on the fact that he needs this 2nd "ring" to be in contention then is it also true that with only 1 "ring" he'll leave a lot of question marks ?? . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isleseeya Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Soooooo .... let me get this straight ..... the discussion is about if Manning, and the rest of the G Men, pull off this win in the Super Bowl ... Manning gets his 2nd "ring" and he is now a likely first round selection to the HOF (for some of you believers). But .... if he tanks in this game and thus no "ring" .... he now will have to work his way back to a post season winning position to re-qualify himself as HOF material ...................................... Is that it in a nutshell for some of you ?? .... If it's that heavy on the fact that he needs this 2nd "ring" to be in contention then is it also true that with only 1 "ring" he'll leave a lot of question marks ?? . correct Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadDawg Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 (edited) OK .......... a players opportunity for the ultimate award of distinction is decided on the win or loss of one game .... Hmmmmm ... interesting? . Edited January 26, 2012 by BadDawg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isleseeya Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 OK .......... a players opportunity for the ultimit award of distinction is decided on the win or loss of one game .... Hmmmmm? . In all seriousness , its not based on one game ... but winning a SB does not happen because of just one game ...its a journey and that journey is led by qb as much as any other position ...Eli has a chance for HOF ...it will help if he gets his 2nd ring in less than 2 weeks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaterMan Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Usually HOF locks on offense will require the whole defense to play that one person. I don't think Eli draws that attention at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menudo Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 (edited) I disagree that any of this amounts to a hill of beans. But, this is our "HILL" and our "BEANS" Based on the discussions in this thread, I have to assume that Roethlisberger is already a lock for the Hall Of Fame ??? Maybe they can put his plaque in the bathroom ??? Edited January 26, 2012 by Menudo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whomper Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 I disagree that any of this amounts to a hill of beans. But this is our hill. and these are our beans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whomper Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 But this is our hill. and these are our beans Edit to add: Nice work Menudo. Beat me to it :tipscap: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Football is the ultimate team sport, so I don't think that the team winning a SB should give any player a lock for HOF status. That should be based on their stats over their career, how they compared to their peers (where they elite, in the top 2-3 all the time). But sadly many fans and the media who pick probably give too much credit to the QB for a win, and therefore expect that a very good QB with multiple SB wins is automatically a player worthy of the HOF. While another QB with better career stats who was more elite over his time is passed up because he never won a SB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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