Ryan Mallett? Really?

[giantsfan]

So it is unfair to say he deserves a share of the blame for the loss for making some bad plays?

 

Yes, I expect more from him on both of those plays. The argument exists within the thread. I expect more from other players on the team during other plays.

 

He is not solely to blame, but he bears a good chunk for those two plays.

 

FYI, I am a big Pats fan, season ticket holder, etc., but I do try and look at the performance of the team without any kind of filter. Two very bad plays by him.

 

 

 

 

Of course he takes some blame. He is the QB and the face of the team, but to rip hi or act like he was terrible is way over the top (not saying you did that, but the article places pretty much all blame on Brady).

 

To be honest, I don't blame him one drop on the int though. He escaped a sure sack, and threw up a jump ball to his stud 6'7 TE downfield who was 1 on 1 with a LB who wasn't even playing football 2 months ago. I won't knock him one drop for that. He was giving his play maker a chance to make a play. He should get ripped for that? Just disagree.

 

Overall, sure he takes blame. A bunch of guys on that team do. But he was not bad yesterday or the main reason NE lost.

 

Again, it was a close game that could have gone either way. NE came up short. What can you do.

[detlef]

So, this is what anyone who was apparently paying attention learned yesterday:

 

Tom Brady, despite not having a decent rushing game for lord knows how long, a D that keeps getting worse each year, and a WR group that with virtually any other QB would be exposed as being as mediocre as they are, yet leading his team to #1 seeds the past two years, earning the NFL MVP last year and making it back to the SB this year while throwing nearly 40 TDs and more yards than all but one QB has ever thrown, has apparently lost it.

 

The Giants, having put together 2 amazing play-off runs in the last 5 seasons that culminated in titles but having gotten bounced in the first round of the play-offs one of those years and failing to even make it in the other two, have apparently cracked the code of how to dominate the NFL. A formula that is bound to be copied by anyone else who wants to win in the modern game.

 

Impressive.

Edited February 6, 2012 by detlef

[CaptainHook]

We have also learned that detlef needs to check his reading comprehension skills.

 

All I said was the Giants had a pretty good formula for a team that doesn't have an ELITE quarterback. A formula that other teams that don't have a Brady, Peyton Manning, Brees, Rogers, or Roethlisberger might imitate.

Edited February 6, 2012 by CaptainHook

[Caveman_Nick]

Overall, sure he takes blame. A bunch of guys on that team do. But he was not bad yesterday or the main reason NE lost.

 

Again, it was a close game that could have gone either way. NE came up short. What can you do.

 

Somehow we are saying the same thing except it seems you are disagreeable with the way I am saying it

 

Brady carries blame. Not all of it, but a fair amount.

 

On the INT...

 

We'll probably have to agree to disagree. Maybe it's because I have seen him throw that ball a few times recently and he is generally throwing it short, giving the defender the advantage. The defender had position because the throw was about 4 yards short of where it needed to be. Not much Gronk could do except mug the LB. Yes, it was an amazing catch, but that just points back to what I was saying about the Giants making their own luck.

 

@BB: I am not saying TB sucks or any such thing. I am just saying that he made some bad plays yesterday.

[detlef]

We have also learned that detlef needs to check his reading comprehension skills.

 

All I said was the Giants had a pretty good formula for a team that doesn't have an ELITE quarterback. A formula that other teams that don't have a Brady, Peyton Manning, Brees, Rogers, or Roethlisberger might imitate.

Are you saying Eli is not at the same level as Big Ben?

[Ursa Majoris]

@BB: I am not saying TB sucks or any such thing. I am just saying that he made some bad plays yesterday.

On the safety, you don't see that called very much. It was a good call for sure but like I said, it was unusual. On the INT, I tend to agree it wasn't a great decision though Gronk has made those repeatedly. On the four-in-a-row incompletions, one of which was the Welker throw, I don't blame Brady for any of them. They were drops. Sure, the ball could have been a foot better but all of them should have been made. Welker's reaction afterwards pretty much confirms this.

 

Another way of looking at Brady yesterday would be to say that without him, the Patriots would have been utterly buried by the Giants.

[CaptainHook]

Are you saying Eli is not at the same level as Big Ben?

I think they are right there together. Behind Brady, Rogers, Peyton Manning (if healthy), and Drew Brees. Eli Manning and Roethlisberger have both benefited from the fact that their organizations pride themselves on putting together a solid defense every year. Much easier to succeed that way. But Eli has blown me away with his clutch drives not only in the regular season (where his big brother excelled) but also in the playoffs. That being said, it surely doesn't hurt that in the Giants SB runs (8 games), the defense has never allowed more than 20 points.

Edited February 6, 2012 by CaptainHook

[detlef]

I think they are right there together. Behind Brady, Rogers, Peyton Manning (if healthy), and Drew Brees. Eli Manning and Roethlisberger have both benefited from the fact that their organizations pride themselves on putting together a solid defense every year. Much easier to succeed that way. But Eli has blown me away with his clutch drives not only in the regular season (where his big brother excelled) but also in the playoffs. That being said, it surely doesn't hurt that in the Giants SB runs (8 games), the defense has never allowed more than 20 points.

Before you blast my reading skills, you might want to do a better job of making a point. You just said that the Giants just showed the blueprint that could be used by teams without QBs as good as a number of players and included Big Ben on that list. Now, apparently, Big Ben is in the same boat as Eli? Which is it?

[CaptainHook]

Before you blast my reading skills, you might want to do a better job of making a point. You just said that the Giants just showed the blueprint that could be used by teams without QBs as good as a number of players and included Big Ben on that list. Now, apparently, Big Ben is in the same boat as Eli? Which is it?

Before this season, many doubted if Eli belonged in the "elite" group of QB's. Even after the regular season, most would still have ranked Rogers, P. Manning, Brady, Brees, Roethlisberger, and maybe even Rivers over him. Eli has had some ups and downs, but he's been pretty clutch in fourth quarters and playoff games. Now, after another playoff run, he's vaulting past a few guys that have put up better pure numbers than him and that also have SB rings. My point in the other thread was this: You don't have to have an upper echelon QB. Just a productive and clutch one. The Giants have built their team around their defensive line, as evidenced by their draft strategy. It's not a bad model to follow if you don't have one of the top tier QB's in the league (but you'd certainly need a top 10-12). And even the teams that do have Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Peyton Manning, or Aaron Rogers would benefit in today's NFL by taking a page from the Giants and invest heavily in the defensive line.

 

Look at teams like San Francisco, Baltimore, Houston, and Pittsburgh. Their QB's are not in the top tier. But their defenses are. All of them made the Divisional round of the playoffs. I just don't like the strategy of Indy, New Orleans, GB, and NE to over-invest on the offense.

Edited February 6, 2012 by CaptainHook

[giantsfan]

Somehow we are saying the same thing except it seems you are disagreeable with the way I am saying it

 

Brady carries blame. Not all of it, but a fair amount.

 

On the INT...

 

We'll probably have to agree to disagree. Maybe it's because I have seen him throw that ball a few times recently and he is generally throwing it short, giving the defender the advantage. The defender had position because the throw was about 4 yards short of where it needed to be. Not much Gronk could do except mug the LB. Yes, it was an amazing catch, but that just points back to what I was saying about the Giants making their own luck.

 

@BB: I am not saying TB sucks or any such thing. I am just saying that he made some bad plays yesterday.

On the int we will agree to disagree. I am not going to rip someone for giving his 6'7 all pro TE a chance to make a play against an average LB who wasn't in the NFL 2 months ago.

 

Aside from that, we agree. Yes he takes some blame, but he is not the reason you lost IMO. He takes blame just like some others take blame. He could have done more, but he did not have a bad game. Just had a decent game instead of a great game.

[HowboutthemCowboys]

So, this is what anyone who was apparently paying attention learned yesterday:

 

Tom Brady, despite not having a decent rushing game for lord knows how long, a D that keeps getting worse each year, and a WR group that with virtually any other QB would be exposed as being as mediocre as they are, yet leading his team to #1 seeds the past two years, earning the NFL MVP last year and making it back to the SB this year while throwing nearly 40 TDs and more yards than all but one QB has ever thrown, has apparently lost it.

 

The Giants, having put together 2 amazing play-off runs in the last 5 seasons that culminated in titles but having gotten bounced in the first round of the play-offs one of those years and failing to even make it in the other two, have apparently cracked the code of how to dominate the NFL. A formula that is bound to be copied by anyone else who wants to win in the modern game.

 

Impressive.

[Balzac]

 

Unfortunately for Brady, he touches the ball more often than anyone else on the team. Therefore, more often than not in close games like this, people are going to look at him as the guy who the most errors. Is it fair? No - it's a simple question of volume and ratios. But it comes with the territory of being a QB. Fact is that he made a couple of really knuckle-headed, non-Bradyesque throws last night that, if they weren't thrown, would've changed the outcome of the game. Sure - he also made some great throws that got them where they needed to be, but that's expected of him. Tom Brady has not been prone to making "stupid" throws throughout his career. He's made an inordinate number over the last couple weeks (the third one I refer to is the one into double coverage in the EZ against BALT) and that is why people are questioning him.

 

On the subject of drops last night, I put the Welker drop 50/50 on Welker and Brady. Given how open Welker was, it was an awful throw. Really bad. That said, anytime a WR gets two hands squarely on the ball, they should come down with it.

 

Hernandez's drop was inexcusable, but that was no surprise - his hands are far from his greatest asset.

 

The Branch drop at the end - unless I'm remembering the wrong play, it was tipped right before it got to him, so he had zero time to adjust to the ball's new trajectory. Those kind of balls are almost impossible to catch unless the ball inadvertently hits you in the middle of the chest.

 

The single worst play of the game was the 12 man on the field. I'm still having a hard time grasping the fact that that actually happened. Unbelievable.

[giantsfan]

Interesting question...where does Eli rank with Rodgers/Brees/Brady/Peyton?

 

Personally, with 2 SB wins each I think he is now ahead of Big Ben.

 

The rest, I would still have him behind Rodgers/Brady/Brees. The interesting one is Peyton.

 

Even all things being equal health wise, it is close. Better pure passer and regular season hands down Peyton.

 

Overall factoring in clutch play and such, it is real close. Peyton is 9-10 in the playoffs I think (or 10-9). Eli is way better and has won a ton of games on the road/away from home in the playoffs, the most ever.

 

You can argue that Eli is better than Peyton if they both retired today. Not pure numbers/stats wise, but overall QB winning/numbers/all things factored in wise...it can be discussed IMO.

 

For all his regular season greatness, Peyton has never been the same in the playoffs outside of a few games. And the year they won the SB he was not great in the playoffs.

 

Interesting discussion.

[Balzac]

Interesting question...where does Eli rank with Rodgers/Brees/Brady/Peyton?

 

Personally, with 2 SB wins each I think he is now ahead of Big Ben.

 

The rest, I would still have him behind Rodgers/Brady/Brees. The interesting one is Peyton.

 

Even all things being equal health wise, it is close. Better pure passer and regular season hands down Peyton.

 

Overall factoring in clutch play and such, it is real close. Peyton is 9-10 in the playoffs I think (or 10-9). Eli is way better and has won a ton of games on the road/away from home in the playoffs, the most ever.

 

You can argue that Eli is better than Peyton if they both retired today. Not pure numbers/stats wise, but overall QB winning/numbers/all things factored in wise...it can be discussed IMO.

 

For all his regular season greatness, Peyton has never been the same in the playoffs outside of a few games. And the year they won the SB he was not great in the playoffs.

 

Interesting discussion.

 

I've never thought Big Ben was in the same class as those other guys. SB titles or not.

 

If Eli and Peyton retired today, I would assume that the overwhelming majority of people would declare, hands down, that Peyton was a far superior quarterback. Look at it like this - how many "great" seasons has Eli had? Simple answer - 1. How many has Peyton had? >1, by a lot. I give Eli props for having two rings but, in my mind, he didn't make "the leap" as a QB until this season - he's been nothing special until then.

[Bronco Billy]

Interesting question...where does Eli rank with Rodgers/Brees/Brady/Peyton?

 

Personally, with 2 SB wins each I think he is now ahead of Big Ben.

 

The rest, I would still have him behind Rodgers/Brady/Brees. The interesting one is Peyton.

 

Even all things being equal health wise, it is close. Better pure passer and regular season hands down Peyton.

 

Overall factoring in clutch play and such, it is real close. Peyton is 9-10 in the playoffs I think (or 10-9). Eli is way better and has won a ton of games on the road/away from home in the playoffs, the most ever.

 

You can argue that Eli is better than Peyton if they both retired today. Not pure numbers/stats wise, but overall QB winning/numbers/all things factored in wise...it can be discussed IMO.

 

For all his regular season greatness, Peyton has never been the same in the playoffs outside of a few games. And the year they won the SB he was not great in the playoffs.

 

Interesting discussion.

 

Not even close in my mind, and that's no disrespect to Eli. Peyton did an amazing job turning chicken#### into chicken salad with the way he was capable of throwing the ball using a complete arsenal of making every throw with appropriate strength/finesse, and was literally an OC on the field. Honesty I think Peyton is quite possibly the best player ever at his position in NFL history.

[giantsfan]

Not even close in my mind, and that's no disrespect to Eli. Peyton did an amazing job turning chicken#### into chicken salad with the way he was capable of throwing the ball using a complete arsenal of making every throw with appropriate strength/finesse, and was literally an OC on the field. Honesty I think Peyton is quite possibly the best player ever at his position in NFL history.

Very fair, and I think most would agree. My only comment on Peyton, and it is unfair if this isn't in the equation, is the guy has had big game/playoff issues.

 

Best player ever at his position under .500 in playoffs? Only won 1 SB and played okay, but threw a huge int in the 2nd in a game he was favored to win. Even in college he never beat Florida, and the year after he left Tee Martin took Tenn to a title.

 

So I would tend to agree, Peyton over Eli, but Peyton's struggles in big spots have to be a hit on his legacy. How can they not be?

[giantsfan]

Can we maybe say that 4th Q, big spot, game on the line in the playoffs, need an 80 yard drive to win, maybe we take Eli over Peyton in that spot?

 

Fair question considering.

[Bronco Billy]

Can we maybe say that 4th Q, big spot, game on the line in the playoffs, need an 80 yard drive to win, maybe we take Eli over Peyton in that spot?

 

Fair question considering.

 

If both guys have the same teams surrounding them? Again, in my mind, it's not even close in Peyton's favor.

[giantsfan]

If both guys have the same teams surrounding them? Again, in my mind, it's not even close in Peyton's favor.

Overall I think Peyton is better, I would agree. In the situation I called out above, I think it is real close. There have been way too many struggles by Peyton in big spots to not say maybe he isn't the best clutch QB.

 

Again, interesting thought IMO. But I agree, from a pure talent/numbers POV Peyton is better.

[Infinity]

First off. I'll go on saying this, you can see the receiver Brady was trying to target on the throw. The officials must not have seen him coming across the field, Tuck hits him and because of that he overthrows it. I don't think it's intentional grounding or a safety. But nothing that can be done about it.

 

Brady played average. It's as if the Giants caught Brady and Rodgers on one of their few average games of the year and made them pay. It's not Brady's fault, they're a perennial winning team who has better players and better coaches then the Giants, but this time they didn't come to play. They let the Giants win this game and i can't even put all the blame on their defense.

[giantsfan]

First off. I'll go on saying this, you can see the receiver Brady was trying to target on the throw. The officials must not have seen him coming across the field, Tuck hits him and because of that he overthrows it. I don't think it's intentional grounding or a safety. But nothing that can be done about it.

 

Brady played average. It's as if the Giants caught Brady and Rodgers on one of their few average games of the year and made them pay. It's not Brady's fault, they're a perennial winning team who has better players and better coaches then the Giants, but this time they didn't come to play. They let the Giants win this game and i can't even put all the blame on their defense.

That was 100% intentional grounding. The rule is not the receiver ran the wrong route then you can throw it anywhere. The rule is was there a receiver anywhere in the close proximity of the throw. In that case the answer is a HUGE no.

 

Also, MAYBE the Giants D gets some credit for Brady and Rodgers having average games...or do we just say no crdit to the Giants D, those guys just had average days...just saying.

 

And they let the Giants win this game...just stop. There is no doubt the Giants were better than the Pats man for man this season IMO. If that wasn't the case then why did 75% of the experts pick the Giants to win. The Pats beat ONE yes ONE winning team all season, the Ravens in the AFC title game. And they needed a missed 32 yard FG AND a dropped TD pass to get that win AT HOME.

 

Come on dude, be fair a little. Maybe you dislike the Giants (not sure), but at least be fair. Either that or I guess the Giants went through 4 playoff games, 3 away from home, and lucked their way through game after game. Funny stuff.

Edited February 6, 2012 by giantsfan

[HowboutthemCowboys]

That was 100% intentional grounding. The rule is not the receiver ran the wrong route then you can throw it anywhere. The rule is was there a receiver anywhere in the close proximity of the throw. In that case the answer is a HUGE no.

 

Also, MAYBE the Giants D gets some credit for Brady and Rodgers having average games...or do we just say no crdit to the Giants D, those guys just had average days...just saying.

 

And they let the Giants win this game...just stop. There is no doubt the Giants were better than the Pats man for man this season IMO. If that wasn't the case then why did 75% of the experts pick the Giants to win. The Pats beat ONE yes ONE winning team all season, the Ravens in the AFC title game. And they needed a missed 32 yard FG AND a dropped TD pass to get that win AT HOME.

 

Come on dude, be fair a little. Maybe you dislike the Giants (not sure), but at least be fair. Either that or I guess the Giants went through 4 playoff games, 3 away from home, and lucked their way through game after game. Funny stuff.

Just enjoy your damn win already. You never know when you're gonna get another...

 

Look, they had a below average season and got hot at the right time and went on a run. Good for them. Does'nt mean they're better than the Pats or anyone else in the league. But they were yesterday, that's all that matters.

 

It also does'nt make Eli Manning the second coming nor make him a HOF'er. As a matter of fact, I think you could make an argument that he pretty much won the MVP because there really was'nt anyone else to give it to. Let's not pretend he loaded the NYG on his back and carried them to victory

[giantsfan]

Just enjoy your damn win already. You never know when you're gonna get another...

 

Look, they had a below average season and got hot at the right time and went on a run. Good for them. Does'nt mean they're better than the Pats or anyone else in the league. But they were yesterday, that's all that matters.

 

It also does'nt make Eli Manning the second coming nor make him a HOF'er. As a matter of fact, I think you could make an argument that he pretty much won the MVP because there really was'nt anyone else to give it to. Let's not pretend he loaded the NYG on his back and carried them to victory

All about getting hot at the right time...agreed. Ask GB from last season.

 

We are better than the Pats. The Pats were nothing special this season. That was Brady and Belichick doing an awesome job. But I agree, who cares. We won, and that's all that matters now.

 

As for Eli, he will be a HOF'er. I was never a huge Eli guy, but now the facts are the facts. 2 time SB champ and 2 time SB MVP. Won the most away from home games EVER in the history of the NFL for a QB. Has beaten good QB after good QB away from home, including all time great Brady in the SB twice. He will be a HOF'er and is elite. I have him as the 4th best QB in the league after Rodgers/Brady/Brees/Peyton (assuming he is healthy next season).

 

Is what it is dude.

[HowboutthemCowboys]

The Pats were nothing special this season.

 

 

Neither were the Giants

[HowboutthemCowboys]

including all time great Brady in the SB twice. Is what it is dude.

Give Eli Branch, a 5 ft 6 Welker and 2 tight ends instead of Manningham, Nicks and Cruz and tell me he's a HOFer. To me thats the difference between Tom Brady and Eli Manning