Ice1 Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Wow. I don't think I buy this statement. Don't have to buy the statement but system and opportunity matter a lot at the position. Bush has played on a worse team that happened to have another back even better from a talent perspective. Both of these backs have 4.2 YPC Bush has a 9.7 catch average Forte has a 9.4 Forte has 28 TD's Bush has 21TD's Forte has 1237 total touches (60 games) Bush has 723 total touches. (61 Games) Bush is a RBBC back Forte is about to be one in my opinion given how close these players are in talent. Both backs are very talented IMO but Forte had nothing close to McFadden on the depth chart. Not saying Bush is better but he is a major upgrade and could get as much 40% of the touches this season keeping both backs fresh. I am sure Forte is not happy at all as his leverage just dropped like a rock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Square Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 except that CHI offered Forte a lot of money (30+mil) and he turned it down. Didn't we go through this before? The real money in that contract was nowhere near 30 million. It was a lowball offer and the GM's mishandling of the situation is one of the reasons for his current unemployment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Don't have to buy the statement but system and opportunity matter a lot at the position. Bush has played on a worse team that happened to have another back even better from a talent perspective. Both backs are very talented IMO but Forte had nothing close to McFadden on the depth chart. Not saying Bush is better but he is a major upgrade and could get as much 40% of the touches this season keeping both backs fresh. I am sure Forte is not happy at all as his leverage just dropped like a rock. Bush has done nothing but be a RBBC back. Forte has been a bell cow his whole career. Bush's production gets noticably worse as his carries increase, while Forte has gotten progressively better in his career with a greater work load. Forte average more than 0.6 ypc aginst the NFC North than Bush has. You watch the guys, and Forte gets better as the game goes on and he gets more touches. Bush wears down as his work load increases. I don't think there's a snowball's chance in hell that Bush comes close to getting 40% of the work barring a Forte injury. If you have a weapon like Forte, you get the ball in his hands, Bush is a complement, not competion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godtomsatan Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 As a Bears fan I'm pleased, as a fantasy fan I will not be drafting either of these guys in my first 4 rounds. Really? This could be a very productive tandem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackass Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 There are very few teams that don't have a RBBC approach these days so I think it would take someone special to leave a RBBC and get handed the reigns fulltime somewhere else. I don't think Bush is that "someone special". There's a big difference b/t being on RBBC with a top 5 ish rb and being in a RBBC with Bernard Scott - which is what would've happened if he had gone to cincy, for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brentastic Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Bush has done nothing but be a RBBC back. Forte has been a bell cow his whole career. Bush's production gets noticably worse as his carries increase, while Forte has gotten progressively better in his career with a greater work load. Forte average more than 0.6 ypc aginst the NFC North than Bush has. You watch the guys, and Forte gets better as the game goes on and he gets more touches. Bush wears down as his work load increases. I don't think there's a snowball's chance in hell that Bush comes close to getting 40% of the work barring a Forte injury. If you have a weapon like Forte, you get the ball in his hands, Bush is a complement, not competion. ^^^This Forte is going to be the man for the Bears, just like he has the last 3 seasons. The Bush signing is only to replace Barber and have a decent backup to Forte. Forte is a STUD, top 5 RB in the NFL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brentastic Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 This preety much solidifies forte holding out Nah, I don't think so. He'll play and play well and then finally get paid next season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddahj Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 I've waited years for Bush to get out of the Oakland RBBC, and he lands right smack dab in the middle of another one! + Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clubfoothead Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 This preety much solidifies forte holding out We will certainly find out how well he managed the money he has been paid so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) This preety much solidifies forte holding out I agree with this - I mean, except for the spelling. By all accounts, he's pissed. Franchise player Matt Forte expressed frustration with the Bears' Thursday signing of Michael Bush. "There's only so many times a man that has done everything he's been asked to do can be disrespected!" Forte wrote on his Twitter account. "Guess the good guys do finish last." Added Forte's agent, "To sign yet another running back, prior to completing a contract with Matt suggests disregard for Matt and his contribution to the Bears." Forte may end up skipping offseason workouts and holding out of training camp in protest. Source: Matt Forte on Twitter Mar 22 - 2:50 PM Edited March 22, 2012 by Bronco Billy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope Flick Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 I like Forte, but he passed on a 5 years contract in excess of 33 million last year. This is his own fault, especially if he cannot see that this is more to replace dumbass Barber than anything, along with providing insurance in lieu of his holding out - which is the real reason he's pissed. He's lost his leverage and might not see an offer as good as the one he passed on again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flemingd Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Nah, I don't think so. He'll play and play well and then finally get paid next season. He's got no mechanism to get paid next year though and no reason to trust the Bears. If they aren't paying him now why would they next year? They can just franchise him again. And again. And again. Yes, each time he gets paid, and each time he gets a minimum 20% raise, but clearly he's not happy with 1 year, he wants long-term security. The only leverage he has in this case is holdout, and he just lost a ton of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice1 Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) Bush has done nothing but be a RBBC back. Forte has been a bell cow his whole career. Bush's production gets noticably worse as his carries increase, while Forte has gotten progressively better in his career with a greater work load. Forte average more than 0.6 ypc aginst the NFC North than Bush has. You watch the guys, and Forte gets better as the game goes on and he gets more touches. Bush wears down as his work load increases. I don't think there's a snowball's chance in hell that Bush comes close to getting 40% of the work barring a Forte injury. If you have a weapon like Forte, you get the ball in his hands, Bush is a complement, not competion. You are making my case as to why these backs have a very good chance at serious RBBC. BTW, Forte has had fewer carries every year since joining the league. Last year he finally broke with an MCL injury. Forte had 5 games last year with 20 or more carries before going down and only 4 games the year before. Fantasy players view Forte as a stud but when you look at his numbers actually riunning the ball and then have an opportunity to get a big back that also has power, and reception ability that you can interghange to keep both fresh it makes sense, This is the way the NFL is going these days. Again it is not that he is better but he is a very solid running back and as a Forte owner be preparred to see yet another team/player moving closer to RBBC. Forte is probably still top 8 from a fantasy perspective but I sure wouldn't draft him in the first round given this news. Edited March 22, 2012 by Ice1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delusions of grandeur Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) I like Forte, but he passed on a 5 years contract in excess of 33 million last year. This is his own fault, especially if he cannot see that this is more to replace dumbass Barber than anything, along with providing insurance in lieu of his holding out - which is the real reason he's pissed. He's lost his leverage and might not see an offer as good as the one he passed on again. And how much of that was guaranteed? Because we all know that a "contract" in the NFL does not mean he'll be retained/paid for that full 5 years, or even 2... So say he suffers a career-ending injury this year, how much does he have to show for it (is what I'd want to know before saying he should take it, when he's played 4 years, risking his pay day as a top 5 feature back worked like one, being paid about the same amount as the guys riding the pine). If there is anyone in the NFL who deserve to get "overpaid", it's Rice, Forte (and Foster who did), who've been ~top 5 at the NFL's riskiest position and centerpieces for their offense, while getting paid less than some bench-warmers. Edited March 22, 2012 by delusions of granduer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackass Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 i don't see this ending well. Forte lost a lot of leverage. he wants more than the Bears are willing to pay. Between Bush and Bell who was already an above average backup, Bears have a decent running game already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 You are making my case as to why these backs have a very good chance at serious RBBC. Wait, this is a trick, right? Kind of like winters getting colder is proof of global warming? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brentastic Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 He's got no mechanism to get paid next year though and no reason to trust the Bears. If they aren't paying him now why would they next year? They can just franchise him again. And again. And again. Yes, each time he gets paid, and each time he gets a minimum 20% raise, but clearly he's not happy with 1 year, he wants long-term security. The only leverage he has in this case is holdout, and he just lost a ton of that. I can definitely see what you're saying but a year can make a big difference in the perceptions and emotions of individuals. If Forte tears it up in 2012 I think the Bears will be forced to pay him and presumably, would gladly do so. I'm only making an educated, albeit optimistic, guess. The Bears aren't the best organization out there but they are smarter than given credit for, imo. I personally believe Forte is the real deal - a top 5 in talent who is now hitting his prime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brentastic Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Why should he play in 2012? What does he need to prove that he hasn't already proved? Oh dude, don't think for a minute that he won't play. Do you really believe that? I believe the new collective bargaining agreement takes leverage away from the players. Regardless of that, how many players have actually sat an entire season in recent memory aside from Vjax? Sitting out the season will only hurt his chances of a long-term deal. Forte has no leverage and unfortunately is going to have to suck this one up and prove his worth.... again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice1 Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) Why should he play in 2012? Well, I can think of Millions of reasons to play. Edited March 23, 2012 by Ice1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice1 Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Wait, this is a trick, right? Kind of like winters getting colder is proof of global warming? That is funny! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpwallace49 Posted March 23, 2012 Author Share Posted March 23, 2012 The Bears aren't the best organization out there but they are smarter than given credit for, No. No they are not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gilthorp Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Barber looked pretty good at times last year when he wasn't being a dumbass in the Denver game. Lovie gives full series off to his feature, sometimes more than once. Having a fresh Mike Bush in the 4th quarter can be powerful. The Forte situation is getting out of control. They might as well deal him at this point. If he's insulted, and is going to pout, send him to Cleveland - see how he likes it there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brentastic Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 No. No they are not. Whatever, Chicago Packer fan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope Flick Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 And how much of that was guaranteed? Because we all know that a "contract" in the NFL does not mean he'll be retained/paid for that full 5 years, or even 2... So say he suffers a career-ending injury this year, how much does he have to show for it (is what I'd want to know before saying he should take it, when he's played 4 years, risking his pay day as a top 5 feature back worked like one, being paid about the same amount as the guys riding the pine). If there is anyone in the NFL who deserve to get "overpaid", it's Rice, Forte (and Foster who did), who've been ~top 5 at the NFL's riskiest position and centerpieces for their offense, while getting paid less than some bench-warmers. Here's context: Phil Emery has some experience in working with talented running backs - Jamaal Charles in Kansas City got a five-year, $32.5 million contract (with $13 million guaranteed) in 2010 and Michael Turner signed a six-year, $34.5 million contract with $15 million guaranteed in 2008. Then there's Adrian Peterson's contract that he signed just before the 2011 season started - seven years, $100 million ($36 million guaranteed) and the Panthers' DeAngelo Williams - five years, $43 million ($21 million guaranteed). And of course, Frank Gore's four year, $25.9 million contract ($13.5 million guaranteed) that he signed back in 2009. Prior to the start of this season, Forte's camp turned down the Bears' offer of $13 million guaranteed and were seeking close to $20 million guaranteed, and the market's gone up a bit since the Gore, Williams and Turner contracts were signed. Now check out the stats from here for 2007-2011. Forte's 13 mil guaranteed offer was pretty well in the ballpark. He doesn't produce like AP, everyone and their mother knows DWill was the beneficiary of a Jedi Mind Trick, and the # closest to Forte's offer was Turner who was coming off a 1700/17 season the likes of which Forte hasn't really pushed. So, you know what? He got a fair offer if you looks at this stuff and he took a pass because he was asking for AP money while guessing he'd get better than Turner, but he has scored 21 TDs in 4 years. Turner almost clipped that in a single season. That offer was fine, and the stats pretty well back that up. http://www.fftoday.com/stats/playerstats.php?Season=2010&GameWeek=&PosID=20&LeagueID=1&order_by=RuYd&sort_order=DESC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackass Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 That is funny! Why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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