49 replies to this topic

[bushwacked]

not sure why it matters if environmental impacts come from the fracking itself or activities directly related to it...but:

Quote

The report concluded that hydraulic fracturing fluids or gel used by the Kaiser Exploration and Mining Company contaminated a well roughly 600 feet away on the property of James Parsons in Jackson County, W.Va., referring to it as “Mr. Parson’s water well.”
“When fracturing the Kaiser gas well on Mr. James Parson’s property, fractures were created allowing migration of fracture fluid from the gas well to Mr. Parson’s water well,” according to the agency’ssummary of the case. “This fracture fluid, along with natural gas was present in Mr. Parson’s water, rendering it unusable.”

http://www.nytimes.c...atgas.html?_r=1

Edited by bushwacked, 19 April 2012 - 03:09 PM.

[SEC=UGA]

bushwacked, on 18 April 2012 - 11:06 PM, said:

This Canadian knows what he speaks of.  And to the SECs comment, I don't think a lot of exploratory firms are fracking to get minerals a mile deep into the earth.

They aren't.  I just wanted to point out that at some point EVERYTHING that we currently use as a means of energy or to power our autos has an extremely harmful impact on the environment.  Fracking may contaminate groundwater, so may the production and disposal of hybrid car batteries...  Which has the greatest impact, I'm not certain.  Though, I did see an episode on 60 minutes where they went to a part of china where all of the batteries, computer monitors, etc are disposed of...  The whole freaking place was smoldering.

While you guys are arguing over fracking, I'm going to go back to my mud hut, light a few cow patties on fire, urinate in the corner and make love to my hairy, unbathed wife.  After that, I'm gonna scavenge for some food-stuffs.  Hopefully one of the speeders on my road manged to corral an opossum last night.

[Scooby's Hubby]

bpwallace49, on 19 April 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

Full disclosure . . . . arent you financially involved in fracking?

just fracked a well last week.  we do it all the time

[Clubfoothead]

Scooby, on 19 April 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

You won't find one issue of this in Texas where there have been hundreds of thousands of wells fractured.

That's untrue and you know it.

[Tford]

bushwacked, on 19 April 2012 - 03:08 PM, said:

not sure why it matters if environmental impacts come from the fracking itself or activities directly related to it...but:



http://www.nytimes.c...atgas.html?_r=1

Unfortunate. The producer had no idea of fracture geometry. Looks like just pounding gas/water/sand in the ground and hope for some extra gas. Then they get surprised when the fracture extends into nearby abandoned wellbores (that very conveniently have poor cement or no casing).

All the more reason to need a regulatory body to force producers to prove the engineering behind their completion techniques. Too much at risk not to.

[Scooby's Hubby]

Clubfoothead, on 19 April 2012 - 03:47 PM, said:

That's untrue and you know it.

I have not heard of any water contaminated from fracturing.  Now, poor cement jobs on old wells and when they pull casing, yes.  Not saying that water has not been contaminated, I am saying that fracturing has not been the cause, to my knowledge.

Edited by Scooby's Hubby, 19 April 2012 - 04:32 PM.

[stevegrab]

Fracking is becoming big business in parts of rural northeast Ohio, and Chesapeak (one of the big players) is running all sorts of commercials to convince people it is safe. I'm sure the majority try to do the right thing, and do it safely. But the big rush to get things done, to get the land rights from people scares me.

Will have to read more of this thread later.

Don't forget, big businesses have been telling us things were safe for years, until there's another major catastrophe like the spill in the Gulf.

[HowboutthemCowboys]

Scooby, on 19 April 2012 - 04:21 PM, said:

I have not heard of any water contaminated from fracturing.  

happens in Pa.  It's not rare either

[Scooby's Hubby]

HowboutthemCowboys, on 19 April 2012 - 08:23 PM, said:

happens in Pa.  It's not rare either

I thought that was from methane coalbeds? and all those old wells drilled before 1930?  Also, what about their disposal methods when they dispose of the used water back into old formations?  Water is disposed of back into older wells, frac water included.  The formations fracced are to be under impermeable rock, but they have to dispose of the water that is pumped out of the fracced well.  If they dispose of that water unsafely, then you get contamination, likely the culprit in PA since they have little regulation of disposal wells, not to mention  all the other industries that dispose of waste water laden with chemicals into those old shallow formations.

After a frac job, the water used in the frac is recovered (flowed or swabbed) through the well bore to the surface, put in tanks and then disposed of down another wellbore used for water disposal.  Please do not get me wrong here, I am not for contaminating people's water.  But you all need to understand what really happens with disposal and the frac process before you consider yourselves educated on the topic.  It is easy to blame the fracturing because it is new and misunderstood, but oil has been prduced in PA since 1900, when there was no regulation and those old wellbores are pitiful.  Those old well bores are used for disposal and they probably should not be.  Get some regulation and disposal and fracturing wells can be safe.  There is alot going on here, and it is not just fracturing wells.

Edited by Scooby's Hubby, 20 April 2012 - 06:46 AM.

[detlef]

Scooby, on 20 April 2012 - 06:32 AM, said:

I thought that was from methane coalbeds? and all those old wells drilled before 1930?  Also, what about their disposal methods when they dispose of the used water back into old formations?  Water is disposed of back into older wells, frac water included.  The formations fracced are to be under impermeable rock, but they have to dispose of the water that is pumped out of the fracced well.  If they dispose of that water unsafely, then you get contamination, likely the culprit in PA since they have little regulation of disposal wells, not to mention  all the other industries that dispose of waste water laden with chemicals into those old shallow formations.

After a frac job, the water used in the frac is recovered (flowed or swabbed) through the well bore to the surface, put in tanks and then disposed of down another wellbore used for water disposal.  Please do not get me wrong here, I am not for contaminating people's water.  But you all need to understand what really happens with disposal and the frac process before you consider yourselves educated on the topic.  It is easy to blame the fracturing because it is new and misunderstood, but oil has been prduced in PA since 1900, when there was no regulation and those old wellbores are pitiful.  Those old well bores are used for disposal and they probably should not be.  Get some regulation and disposal and fracturing wells can be safe.  There is alot going on here, and it is not just fracturing wells.

If the contamination does not come from the fracking itself, but from the disposal of the fluids used in fracking, that still sort of means that fracking caused the contamination.  No fracking, no fracking fluids to dispose of.

I'm not saying that I know enough to say it can't be done safely.  Like I said earlier, I'm prepared to listen, but I do like Ursa and Irish Doggy's point.  Sure, go ahead, and if you mess up, it's your ass in a big fracking way.  That'll put how much faith you have in the safety to the test.

[Scooby's Hubby]

detlef, on 20 April 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

If the contamination does not come from the fracking itself, but from the disposal of the fluids used in fracking, that still sort of means that fracking caused the contamination.  No fracking, no fracking fluids to dispose of.

I'm not saying that I know enough to say it can't be done safely.  Like I said earlier, I'm prepared to listen, but I do like Ursa and Irish Doggy's point.  Sure, go ahead, and if you mess up, it's your ass in a big fracking way.  That'll put how much faith you have in the safety to the test.

all salt water from production is disposed of, not just frac water.  Any and all oil&gas wells have disposal.  It is injected into old wells, usually.

Edited by Scooby's Hubby, 20 April 2012 - 09:33 AM.

[Yukon Cornelius]

money money money....moneeey

[matt770]

There has been an underground coal mine fire burning in Centralia, PA since 1962.  The town is now a mini-Chernobyl, pretty interesting read.  It started when they burned the city dump and the fire wasn't extinguished properly.

[detlef]

Scooby, on 20 April 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

all salt water from production is disposed of, not just frac water.  Any and all oil&gas wells have disposal.  It is injected into old wells, usually.

I was simply saying that it sounded like you were making a distinction between fracking and contamination caused by the disposal of materials used during fracking.  My point is that I don't really care what part of the whole fracking process results in messing up the drinking water.  Many of the pollution issues we have are from the careless disposal of waste generated from doing things and we rightly don't make a point of separating the acts.

If what you do results in poisons that need to be disposed of and you fail to dispose of them safely, either because you don't try hard enough or because there's simply no truly safe way to do so, then you need to stop doing whatever it is you were doing.  Either that or ship your waste to China.

[Ursa Majoris]

detlef, on 20 April 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

I'm not saying that I know enough to say it can't be done safely.  Like I said earlier, I'm prepared to listen, but I do like Ursa and Irish Doggy's point.  Sure, go ahead, and if you mess up, it's your ass in a big fracking way.  That'll put how much faith you have in the safety to the test.

It has always struck me as odd that we don't use the risk vs reward thing more broadly.  Reward always seems to go up while risk (in terms of putting one's own neck on the block) is less and less.  At the same time, the risk to the greater good rises while the reward for the wider populace gets less.

[cliaz]

matt770, on 20 April 2012 - 09:43 AM, said:

There has been an underground coal mine fire burning in Centralia, PA since 1962.  The town is now a mini-Chernobyl, pretty interesting read.  It started when they burned the city dump and the fire wasn't extinguished properly.

I have been facinated with Centralia for decades.  Have you seen the pictures from there?  It is very creepy.  Just imagine walking down the street or even in your back yard and then all of a sudden the ground gives away and you fall down into a 3000 degree coal fire.  They say it may burn for 200+ years with all the coal down there.

http://en.wikipedia....a,_Pennsylvania

[HowboutthemCowboys]

Scooby, on 20 April 2012 - 06:32 AM, said:

I thought that was from methane coalbeds? and all those old wells drilled before 1930?  Also, what about their disposal methods when they dispose of the used water back into old formations?  Water is disposed of back into older wells, frac water included.  The formations fracced are to be under impermeable rock, but they have to dispose of the water that is pumped out of the fracced well.  If they dispose of that water unsafely, then you get contamination, likely the culprit in PA since they have little regulation of disposal wells, not to mention  all the other industries that dispose of waste water laden with chemicals into those old shallow formations.

After a frac job, the water used in the frac is recovered (flowed or swabbed) through the well bore to the surface, put in tanks and then disposed of down another wellbore used for water disposal.  Please do not get me wrong here, I am not for contaminating people's water.  But you all need to understand what really happens with disposal and the frac process before you consider yourselves educated on the topic.  It is easy to blame the fracturing because it is new and misunderstood, but oil has been prduced in PA since 1900, when there was no regulation and those old wellbores are pitiful.  Those old well bores are used for disposal and they probably should not be.  Get some regulation and disposal and fracturing wells can be safe.  There is alot going on here, and it is not just fracturing wells.

http://www.google.co...&rlz=1I7GGLS_en

[matt770]

cliaz, on 20 April 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

I have been facinated with Centralia for decades.  Have you seen the pictures from there?  It is very creepy.  Just imagine walking down the street or even in your back yard and then all of a sudden the ground gives away and you fall down into a 3000 degree coal fire.  They say it may burn for 200+ years with all the coal down there.

http://en.wikipedia....a,_Pennsylvania

How about the people who refuse to move?!  And they still have their municipal building intact, with the fire department that serves what, 10 people?

Found some other cool stuff:
Life After People from the History Channel - footage from the 70's and now
Google street view
I really want to visit that area sometime.  My wife would probably think I'm nuts.

[stevegrab]

detlef, on 20 April 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

If the contamination does not come from the fracking itself, but from the disposal of the fluids used in fracking, that still sort of means that fracking caused the contamination.  No fracking, no fracking fluids to dispose of.

I'm not saying that I know enough to say it can't be done safely.  Like I said earlier, I'm prepared to listen, but I do like Ursa and Irish Doggy's point.  Sure, go ahead, and if you mess up, it's your ass in a big fracking way.  That'll put how much faith you have in the safety to the test.

Exactly, it CAN be done safely. The contaminated liquid is supposed to pumped out and dumped safely. I know somebody who spotted a truck in rural NE Ohio (while hunting) that was dumping the water illegal. They took information, including water samples and provided them to the local authorities(ODNR- Ohio Dept. of Natural Resources). This was months ago, they continue to follow up but haven't heard of anything being done. When there is action, some small fine that is less than 1% of their MONTHLY revenue will barely affect them enough to matter.

Sure there are some companies that are reputable and do the right thing. But with lots of money to be made, poor regulation and virtually non existent enforcement of the laws/rules, there are going to be shady operators. This is already the case in Eastern OH and parts of PA (the Marcellus Shale exploration)

[Scooby's Hubby]

HowboutthemCowboys, on 20 April 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

http://www.google.co...&rlz=1I7GGLS_en

So you agree with me ... here is what you googled ...  It is like you just google to find your results but do not read what you google.  Scientifically, fracturing occurs under impermeable rock, impermeable.  Meaning gas or fluid cannot pass through it.  Therefore, how could it contaminate what is above the impermeable rock?  It cannot.   You need to focus your efforts on the disposal side of things.  And not just disposal of frac water, but the disposal of all fluids (what we in the oil business call BS&W, short for bull$hit and water).  All byproducts of production are disposed of , usually in old wells that use old washed out formations.  Those formations are probably too close to fresh water and/or are disposed of in poor holes with poor cement or holes with casing leaks.  That is how fresh water gets contaminated, not br fracturing under impermeable rock.


The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency is providing further evidence that hydraulic fracturing did not contaminate groundwater in a small Pennsylvania town where some residents believe natural gas drilling fouled their domestic wells.

• [img]http://img.ibtimes.com/www/data/images/middle/2012/01/06/213462-dimock-pa-water.jpg[/img]

Twenty more homes in Dimock were tested by EPA investigators, and the results upheld findings released earlier in March according to which the water posed no immediate health risk.

Edited by Scooby's Hubby, 21 April 2012 - 07:50 AM.

[Scooby's Hubby]

matt770, on 20 April 2012 - 09:43 AM, said:

There has been an underground coal mine fire burning in Centralia, PA since 1962.  The town is now a mini-Chernobyl, pretty interesting read.  It started when they burned the city dump and the fire wasn't extinguished properly.

And I would imagine that methane gas is contaminating their water.  Coincidentally, there are new wells being drilled by rich corps so those with contaminated water go after the money instead of the truth.  The movie Gasland was fraudulent and it proved that water that was being lit on fire was a result of methane gas contamination from old coal beds, not fracturing of gas wells.  The guy who did Gasland pulled a fast one so he could get his name and movie promoted to sell to HBO.

[bushwacked]

bushwacked, on 19 April 2012 - 03:08 PM, said:

not sure why it matters if environmental impacts come from the fracking itself or activities directly related to it...but:

detlef, on 20 April 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

If the contamination does not come from the fracking itself, but from the disposal of the fluids used in fracking, that still sort of means that fracking caused the contamination.  No fracking, no fracking fluids to dispose of.

Apparently, Scooby's Hubby doesn't agree.  

You see,the specific action of mining minerals isn't as  hazardous to the environment as are the tailings that result from the mining process.  Therefore mining and fracking have never once impacted the environment in a negative fashion.

Edited by bushwacked, 21 April 2012 - 12:35 PM.

[bushwacked]

SEC=UGA, on 19 April 2012 - 03:09 PM, said:

They aren't.  I just wanted to point out that at some point EVERYTHING that we currently use as a means of energy or to power our autos has an extremely harmful impact on the environment.  Fracking may contaminate groundwater, so may the production and disposal of hybrid car batteries...  

Well, then I commend your keen insight and uncanny sense of timing for taking this opportune moment to remind everyone that ore isn't mined by rainbows and unicorns.

[Jackass]

There will be blood.

[LordOpie]

I want to know what the world powers are going to do about that fracking Oprahishima Nuclear DISASTER waiting to happen?!

One nice size earth quake -- in a region that gets plenty of them -- could frack Oprahishima and pollute the Pacific ocean and make the US coastline into a disaster zone.