LaCanfora reports Vilma suspended for season

[delusions of grandeur]

If you're just talking about player suspensions then how can you justify punishing the players for something the coach told them to do but they did not carry out? If I told you to take this gun and go kill somebody, you take the gun but don't do the deed, do you deserve to go to prison for murder?

 

No, it's equivalent to someone giving you a gun, you shooting it but missing, and then getting charged with attempted murder. Just because no one got hurt or flagged, does not mean there wasn't a bounty program. Intent still matters in the eyes of the law, not just the effect of you actions. The latter only compunds the former, it is not necessary that anyone is injured for there to be penalties for bounties.

 

A player admitted, and directly contradicted Vilma's claim's, that there was a bounty program that they took part in, so I have no clue how you can claim that the coach asked them to do something and they didn't do it. A player admitted as much that they did it, so jsut because not all of the evidence has come out does not make the claims at all baseless.

 

Didn't we all know all along that Vilma and mroe were going to be implicated and suspended? So I'm not sure how this is coming as a shock to you that they were in fact implicated and suspended.

[flemingd]

No, it's equivalent to someone giving you a gun, you shooting it but missing, and then getting charged with attempted murder.

 

Actually it's closer to someone giving you the gun, you buy custom scopes and black talons, and are charged with conspiracy. The fact you didn't act on what you were told isn't part of the punishment, it's the fact you were going along with the idea.

[rajncajn]

They aren't being punished for on field actions. Jesus Christ how dense are you?

Hey, I can't help it if you can't follow a simple pattern of a conversation. Keg posed the GW tape as evidence of the bounty system. I contended that, although I did not approve of the way GW used the injuries as a way to motivate the players, nothing in the tape actually made me think that a bounty was being placed on anyone. Again, the only thing that would lead you to believe there might have been was the text that was edited in. And as a supporting argument I pointed towards the play on the field.

 

All I am doing is trying to point out that the tape isn't really evidence of anything unless you can see the entire thing, not just a short, edited audio clip with Paphilon's narration. And that you can't fairly justify punishing the players based just on what Williams said in that audio clip.

[flemingd]

And that you can't fairly justify punishing the players based just on what Williams said in that audio clip.

I guess it's a good thing they aren't then.

[rajncajn]

I guess it's a good thing they aren't then.

And I wasn't saying they were, I would hope that the NFL has more evidence than that to go by, but again, the fact of the matter is that nobody knows the answer to that but them.

Edited May 5, 2012 by rajncajn

[Ditkaless Wonders]

If you're just talking about player suspensions then how can you justify punishing the players for something the coach told them to do but they did not carry out? If I told you to take this gun and go kill somebody, you take the gun but don't do the deed, do you deserve to go to prison for murder?

 

 

Actually if you join a conspiracy and take overt acts, such as taking posession of a weapon in furtherance thereof, and you do not take acts or steps thereafter that clearly renounce your participation in that conspirac,y you may well be prosecuted for your participation whether the conspiracy achieves its goal or not. You may want to look for another analogy.

[overworkedirish]

Has it occurred to those arguing for "show me the evidence" that perhaps the NFL is withholding evidence because it is protecting players who came forward with statements / texts / emails? If the suspended players were shown this evidence, they'd know exactly who ratted on them, and it would be a media sh*tstorm if that got out. And at that point, what's the motivation of the suspended players to NOT slip some reporter names of whistle-blowers? They're already suspended.

 

 

 

Ok, I give up, another endless back and forth that will accomplish nothing. Some (mostly Saints fans) will believe that the NFL is on a witch hunt, the suspensions are unfair, Goodell is acting on personal dislike for Payton & Saints, the media is out to get them, etc. While most of the rest of the NFL fans believe that the Saints did have a bounty system that was against the rules. That most likely included payoffs for injuries not just big plays like interceptions. Several people in the Saints organization (GM, coaches, players) knew about this system, participated in it, or ignored it. They lied to the NFL or just shrugged it off figuring no way they get caught.

 

I agree with one basic view of Rajn and the others, the people being punished deserve to see the evidence that exists. However the rest of the NFL, fans, media, etc have no such right.

 

I really wish we could just move on instead of beating this topic to death, with no end result. I guess I'll take the first step myself, and either avoid reading these threads or at least stop posting in them.

 

 

Stevegrab makes a good point here. The fact that fans expect to see the evidence themselves is outrageous.

[flemingd]

And I wasn't saying they were

 

 

Sure you have, you've said it three times in this thread alone:

 

If you're just talking about player suspensions then how can you justify punishing the players for something the coach told them to do but they did not carry out?

Regardless, we are discussing player suspensions here & absolutely nothing that was said in that audio regarding injuring other players translated onto the field. In FACT, the Saints were not fined for any hits in that game, nor were they even flagged a SINGLE TIME... For anything.

I do however think that although it is not mentioned, the penalty on Hargrove is mostly based on the Minnesota game and the hit on Warner. Given the league already penalized him for the hit on Favre & the hit on Warner was completely legal, I'm not so sure the NFL did the smart thing by going that route if in fact that is why his was longer

 

Let alone all the other threads I'm not going to bother digging through.

[overworkedirish]

Sure you have, you've said it three times in this thread alone:

 

 

 

 

 

Let alone all the other threads I'm not going to bother digging through.

 

 

To be fair to rajn, I think his implication was the audio in conjunction with other evidence. I don't agree that the audio is not damning, though.

Edited May 6, 2012 by overworkedirish

[rajncajn]

Has it occurred to those arguing for "show me the evidence" that perhaps the NFL is withholding evidence because it is protecting players who came forward with statements / texts / emails? If the suspended players were shown this evidence, they'd know exactly who ratted on them, and it would be a media sh*tstorm if that got out. And at that point, what's the motivation of the suspended players to NOT slip some reporter names of whistle-blowers? They're already suspended.

 

Stevegrab makes a good point here. The fact that fans expect to see the evidence themselves is outrageous.

 

Absolutely, and that was why I said that at least the NFLPA should be able to see the evidence & then be able to make their own determination. I think the majority of the fans, me included, would be fine with that. That’s much better than the NFL just saying “trust me.”

To be fair to rajn, I think his implication was the audio in conjunction with other evidence. I don't agree that the audio is not damning, though.

 

Well, yeah. I’ve already told him that I was responding to Keg posing the tape as evidence and my argument for why the tape, at least what we’ve seen/heard of it, should not be construed as evidence of a bounty system. I never said that it was used for that, I only said that it shouldn’t be & that I’d hoped that the NFL had a lot more to base their suspensions on than just that and/or hearsay. Judging by what we’ve seen so far, I have to question whether they do or not. I’m basing my opinion on what I’ve seen so far, both on the field and the physical evidence that’s been put forth. If in 3 years the Saints have not put forth any evidence on the field that they were doing anything to try to knock out, cart off, or otherwise injure an opposing player. Then I think that they deserve to have the opportunity, via the NFLPA, to review & rebut whatever evidence the NFL has against them. I don’t think that’s too much to ask. And as Steve said before, if the NFLPA agrees with the NFL’s findings, then by all means, throw the book at them.

 

The NFL said they had 50,000 pages of documents to go along with testimony. They publicly painted this grand & horrible picture of how the Saints had this whole system of injuring opposing players & paying out cash for said injuries. The NFL said they did this for 3 years beginning in 09 and continued it even after the NFL told them to stop. Yet all we’ve actually heard them say they have as specific evidence is a couple of emails from Orenstein last year to Payton pledging money in a “PS” on Rodgers & Newton. The rest, as far as everyone outside of the NFL knows, is hearsay. There is no evidence of such a scheme on the field. The Saints in those 3 years weren’t even close to being the most penalized for unsportmanlike and/or personal fouls. NO opposing players were carted off or knocked out during that 3 year span other than Reggie Bush when he broke his leg. All the players have admitted to having a pay-for-performance system, but denied having a system to injure opposing players, possibly sans Hargrove (but nobody has seen that evidence either). If that’s all the evidence they have that the Saints had or continued a bounty program & lied to the NFL about it then I think the NFL deserves every bit of the ire the Saints fans are feeling towards them. I have very little doubt that something went on, something that should certainly not go unpunished. I just have an extremely difficult time buying the NFL’s version of it, at least not until someone a bit more unbiased and/or someone with the coaches/players interest in mind has a chance to make their own determination.

 

In regards to the evidence in the audio, I agree, it is damning, but not in regards to a bounty system IMHO. I posted in another thread, I think regarding the Giants admitting that they targeted Williams for his concussion issues. I have a real problem with that practice & that’s where I draw the line in the Greg Williams audio. If the league wants to clean up its act in regards to player safety, then that’s where they need to work on it, in changing the mentality of players & coaches. I think that Greg Williams does deserve punishment for instructing his players to target injuries. But that issue is something separate from the bounty system and as was the case with the Giants players, if that rhetoric is not translated onto the field in way of illegal play, then it shouldn’t be held against the players.

[keggerz]

Absolutely, and that was why I said that at least the NFLPA should be able to see the evidence & then be able to make their own determination. I think the majority of the fans, me included, would be fine with that. That’s much better than the NFL just saying “trust me.”

 

Well, yeah. I’ve already told him that I was responding to Keg posing the tape as evidence and my argument for why the tape, at least what we’ve seen/heard of it, should not be construed as evidence of a bounty system. I never said that it was used for that, I only said that it shouldn’t be & that I’d hoped that the NFL had a lot more to base their suspensions on than just that and/or hearsay. Judging by what we’ve seen so far, I have to question whether they do or not. I’m basing my opinion on what I’ve seen so far, both on the field and the physical evidence that’s been put forth. If in 3 years the Saints have not put forth any evidence on the field that they were doing anything to try to knock out, cart off, or otherwise injure an opposing player. Then I think that they deserve to have the opportunity, via the NFLPA, to review & rebut whatever evidence the NFL has against them. I don’t think that’s too much to ask. And as Steve said before, if the NFLPA agrees with the NFL’s findings, then by all means, throw the book at them.

 

The NFL said they had 50,000 pages of documents to go along with testimony. They publicly painted this grand & horrible picture of how the Saints had this whole system of injuring opposing players & paying out cash for said injuries. The NFL said they did this for 3 years beginning in 09 and continued it even after the NFL told them to stop. Yet all we’ve actually heard them say they have as specific evidence is a couple of emails from Orenstein last year to Payton pledging money in a “PS” on Rodgers & Newton. The rest, as far as everyone outside of the NFL knows, is hearsay. There is no evidence of such a scheme on the field. The Saints in those 3 years weren’t even close to being the most penalized for unsportmanlike and/or personal fouls. NO opposing players were carted off or knocked out during that 3 year span other than Reggie Bush when he broke his leg. All the players have admitted to having a pay-for-performance system, but denied having a system to injure opposing players, possibly sans Hargrove (but nobody has seen that evidence either). If that’s all the evidence they have that the Saints had or continued a bounty program & lied to the NFL about it then I think the NFL deserves every bit of the ire the Saints fans are feeling towards them. I have very little doubt that something went on, something that should certainly not go unpunished. I just have an extremely difficult time buying the NFL’s version of it, at least not until someone a bit more unbiased and/or someone with the coaches/players interest in mind has a chance to make their own determination.

 

In regards to the evidence in the audio, I agree, it is damning, but not in regards to a bounty system IMHO. I posted in another thread, I think regarding the Giants admitting that they targeted Williams for his concussion issues. I have a real problem with that practice & that’s where I draw the line in the Greg Williams audio. If the league wants to clean up its act in regards to player safety, then that’s where they need to work on it, in changing the mentality of players & coaches. I think that Greg Williams does deserve punishment for instructing his players to target injuries. But that issue is something separate from the bounty system and as was the case with the Giants players, if that rhetoric is not translated onto the field in way of illegal play, then it shouldn’t be held against the players.

 

 

the above is more than 5 lines so I didn't read it...just curious but what did the Saints as an organization do to dispute the claims that there was a bounty program in place.

[rajncajn]

 

 

the above is more than 5 lines so I didn't read it...just curious but what did the Saints as an organization do to dispute the claims that there was a bounty program in place.

 

Don't know. Are you arguing that should be reviews as well? Not sure I get your point. The coaches and administration have no CBA. Their only arbitrator is Goodell himself. He is is judge, jury and executioner in both court and appeals, so what difference does it make what they did to dispute? I know they did and some of their arguments were reported on, but I'm not going to dig for specifics for you because it's irrelevant in this discussion.

[rajncajn]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/05/06/rex-ryan-wrote-last-year-about-dotting-opposing-players/

 

“This is something that is being handled by the NFL office,” Ryan said. “I’ve never condoned it and I’ve never coached it.”

 

But while Ryan may not have condoned or coached the habit of offering money to players for knocking opposing players out of games (whether they leave on their own power or via a stretcher or a golf cart), Ryan has condoned — and coached — the habit of knocking opposing players out of games. We know this because Ryan said so in his 2011 book, Play Like You Mean It.

 

From pages 16-17 of the chapter called Blunt-Force Trauma: “Each game we might also designate an opposing player with a dot. Players don’t want to be dotted by the New York Jets, because that means we want that dude knocked out of the game. Of course, it has to be legal and by the book. We don’t play dirty, and no way will we intentionally hurt a player with an illegal, cheap shot. We dot players fair and square. There are players out there who think they are badasses, and you just might see two of our players knock the hell out of him. Pow! Pow! That’s our mentality. Everything we do is aggressive and, hey, we may make a mistake, but we will go one hundred miles per hour and we will knock the hell out of you. Big hits create turnovers. You haven’t been Punked — you’ve been Dotted!”

[stevegrab]

Its funny, the NFLPA has taken some action (didn't see it mentioned here), but they do not dispute that players did what they were accused of, nor do they claim the penalty is too harsh.

 

No, what they claim is that basically the NFL and the commissioner have no right to levy punishment for activities that occured before the new CBA was filed. Seriously?

 

http://www.ohio.com/blogs/cleveland-browns/cleveland-browns-1.270107/nflpa-reportedly-challenges-commissioner-roger-goodell-s-authority-in-saints-bounty-suspensions-1.304872

 

So will the NFLPA be responsible for this, and generally cleaning up the game? And does that make the NFLPA the ones really responsible for all the injuries to the players, and therefore the group who should be sued by former players with injury issues?

[bpwallace49]

Thanks for the updates. Keep em coming

 

This is a story that really needs more info and posts

[FWmaker]

If you're just talking about player suspensions then how can you justify punishing the players for something the coach told them to do but they did not carry out? If I told you to take this gun and go kill somebody, you take the gun but don't do the deed, do you deserve to go to prison for murder?

 

 

Just like "A Few Good Men." Dawson and Downey were found "guilty" of Conduct Unbecoming a U.S. Marine Officer. As you might remember, however, they were found "not guilty" of the charges Murder and Conspiracy to Commit Murder.

[Papajohn]

Anthony Hargrove acts on personal feelings and throws coaches under the bus in an attempt to save his own ass in the bounty program that did not take place!

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1175109-anthony-hargrove-says-he-was-told-to-lie-during-saints-bounty-investigation

[rajncajn]

Its funny, the NFLPA has taken some action (didn't see it mentioned here), but they do not dispute that players did what they were accused of, nor do they claim the penalty is too harsh.

 

No, what they claim is that basically the NFL and the commissioner have no right to levy punishment for activities that occured before the new CBA was filed. Seriously?

 

http://www.ohio.com/...nsions-1.304872

 

So will the NFLPA be responsible for this, and generally cleaning up the game? And does that make the NFLPA the ones really responsible for all the injuries to the players, and therefore the group who should be sued by former players with injury issues?

 

I didn't read the particular article you linked, but I've read a couple others & I think your misinterpreting. I beleive the idea is to say that Goodell should not be the authority on the matter and it should be referred to the arbitrators. As the case stands now the appeals go straight back to Goodell.

 

Thanks for the updates. Keep em coming

 

This is a story that really needs more info and posts

 

Nobody is forcing you to read it. Unless you've got some constructive input then why don't you go find somewhere else to troll?

 

Just like "A Few Good Men." Dawson and Downey were found "guilty" of Conduct Unbecoming a U.S. Marine Officer. As you might remember, however, they were found "not guilty" of the charges Murder and Conspiracy to Commit Murder.

 

That's the point that I was trying to make. Vilma is being charged with "murder," but is he guilty of that crime or does he fall in line with Will Smith as being a captain? Is there evidence of the $10,000? Was it his money? Was it paid out? Who was it that accused him of it & did they have a reason to lie about it?

[rajncajn]

Anthony Hargrove acts on personal feelings and throws coaches under the bus in an attempt to save his own ass in the bounty program that did not take place!

 

http://bleacherrepor...y-investigation

 

OK, I'm just going to let y'all read this without too much of my own comment. Florio seems to be reaching a bit here, which really surprises me coming from him, but that may just be me and he does say that he read the actual declaration.

 

Hargrove says Williams, Vitt told him to “just play dumb”

Edited May 7, 2012 by rajncajn

[FWmaker]

I didn't read the particular article you linked, but I've read a couple others & I think your misinterpreting. I beleive the idea is to say that Goodell should not be the authority on the matter and it should be referred to the arbitrators. As the case stands now the appeals go straight back to Goodell.

 

 

 

Nobody is forcing you to read it. Unless you've got some constructive input then why don't you go find somewhere else to troll?

 

 

 

That's the point that I was trying to make. Vilma is being charged with "murder," but is he guilty of that crime or does he fall in line with Will Smith as being a captain? Is there evidence of the $10,000? Was it his money? Was it paid out? Who was it that accused him of it & did they have a reason to lie about it?

You want the truth??? You can't handle the truth!!

Rajin, Son, we live in a world that has playoffs, and those playoff positions have to be won by men with bawlls. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Matt Leinert? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Warner and Favre, and you curse the Saints. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Warner and Favre's potential injuries, while potentially tragic, probably saved playoff contention. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves post season play. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at office coolers, you want me in that playoff, you need me in that playoff. We use words and phrases like hold outs, job security, contract extensions. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent earning endorsements. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the entertainment of the very sport that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you drop all Saint players, and stand naked in the bayou. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!

[stevegrab]

Take that with a couple bags of Mike Florio Salt (the guy who reports every rumor hoping one is true, who obviously has some personal issues with the NFL's handling of this case).

 

Even if these guys were told to lie, told to participate, they are still guilty. All this is doing is diflecting the attention in a million different directions.

[Cunning Runt]

Goodell seems to be becoming more and more of a megalomaniac. It's as if he thinks the worst crime you can commit is to lie to him.

 

 

Funny 'cause I tell my kids that when they do something wrong, lying about it afterward is in fact worse. I try to teach them to man up and accept responsibility for their actions.

 

Is this true always? Certainly not. There are definitely things that are worse than lying about it afterward. But I think that a person accepting responsibility for their actions is huge in deciding punishment.

 

Look at Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds. They didn't go to trial for taking steroids. They got in trouble for lying about it wheras guys like A-Rod, Pettit, Canseco didn't get in trouble because they admitted that they did it.

[Cunning Runt]

 

I was thinking of the same analogy. Goodell is acting like a father and treating the players like they are children. But I've never thought thought someone admitting something after they get caught is really taking responsibility. They maybe have just learned that it is within their best interests to come clean. If they hadn't been caught they would have admitted to nothing. But if your child comes to you without having been already caught, then I would agree with you.

 

 

I hear you, but admitting something after they got caught is certainly better than lying about it. I mean...they WERE caught but still tried to lie about it. Maybe "taking responsibility" is the wrong phrase for that situation. Maybe "manning up" and accepting the consequences is better once you're already caught. But definitely the lies factored into the punishment. People do things they shouldn't do. God knows my kids do. It's what they do once it becomes known that I have an issue with.

[keggerz]

We had a Park Supervisor that put diesel in a brand new Gator that took straight gas...no one fessed up, but someone on staff knew he did it....when he was asked about it by the Director he straight up lied....he lost his job....I know for a fact had he fessed up from the get go that wouldn't have happened.

[matt770]

Footage of the Saints bounty program in action!