rajncajn Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 This is an issue of employer/employee discipline, and it's none of the public's business. When they fired the CEO of HP we all knew the general reasons behind it due to the media coverage of the controversy (just like this), but we were not privy, nor should we expect to be, about the details behind it. They announced the decision, they hired a new CEO, and that was it. That's how this should be handled. I do agree the player needs to see the evidence, and of course they can do whatever they feel is necessary based on that. But to demand that we, the public see it is ludicrous. Does the nature of the business make a difference in your mind? The fact that we, the fans, are the one's footing the bill for the NFL? I'm not saying that it should, but I don't think it's going overboard to feel, as someone who is being asked by the NFL to invest my time & money in their product, that I deserve to see why my product is being punished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 When a criminal trial takes place and a murderer is tried and convicted, does the public have access to all the evidence so we can be sure that the courts did the right thing? mostly, yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flemingd Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 Does the nature of the business make a difference in your mind? The fact that we, the fans, are the one's footing the bill for the NFL? I thought long and hard about this, because it's a big issue. We're not buying computers from some faceless middle manager that's in hot water for diddling his secretary, we're buying the ability to watch these guys play, and in some cases this particular QB or RB or whatever. But at the end of the day I think it comes down to the same issue: The NFL puts out a product, we choose to pay for it until it's not worth it, and then we stop. If the old CEO of HP was so valuable that the product suffers, we'll stop buying their laptops. If Vilma is so compelling that the game isn't the same without him on the field, maybe we don't get the Sunday Ticket this year. My thought though is that the game is so much bigger than that, the stories so much more compelling than one guy's issues, that it's not worth infringing on the guy's personal business over. I don't think it's going overboard to feel, as someone who is being asked by the NFL to invest my time & money in their product, that I deserve to see why my product is being punished. I hear ya, and again the NFL is a unique beast. It's easy not to buy a laptop because your cousin was laid off by that evil greedy corporation but it's a whole lot harder to walk away from a franchise you have invested in both financially and emotionally for years and years. Still though, the rights these guys have to not have their business splashed all over the place HAS to supercede our need to comprehend, cope with, and heal from the damage. Because you know what? The next great guy your team signs, seeing what happened to Vilma, might just decide to retire early, or not appeal the suspension, knowing that the alternative is to see his dirty laundry all over ESPN. And he might not get a fair shake as a result. And that's nearly criminal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditkaless Wonders Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 I wonder about when this whole matter went from speculation and inuendo in Goodell's mind to more probale than not, and on into certitude. It seems that at least the initial indications may have been known during the CBA negotiations. If so I wonder about the consequences had he let some of this out then. Would he have not been believed, or have been percieved as trying to manipulate the negotiations. Would he have been crucified for that perception? And now, can DeMaurice Smith find a way to claim Goodell negotiated then in bad faith by not disclosing information and intentions Goodell had? In a day and age were a lawyer will try to leverage every piece of information, in a day and age were no issue is settled and no battle over will the players union yet look to this trouble as an opportunity for a new battle front? I hate lawyers, discipline, and twisted legal minds like mine SNICKERSing up the game I love. I guess it is our nature to destroy what we create. I hope the NFL will not be an example of that theorum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted May 5, 2012 Share Posted May 5, 2012 (edited) I've been told thatNFLPA has received no specific evidence. They were given a summary review, and shown a PowerPoint presentiation — SC_DougFarrar (@SC_DougFarrar) May 4, 2012 Asked for specific evidence: Denied. Asked for the names of the players: Denied. Asked for a copy of the PowerPoint: Nope. — SC_DougFarrar (@SC_DougFarrar) May 4, 2012 One of the top NFL investigators in Saints bounty case was once scolded by a federal judge for his behavior re: Saints DE Will Smith. — James Varney (@jvarneyTP) May 4, 2012 In the so-called 'StarCaps' case that led to Smith's 4-game suspension in 2011, judge said NFL played, "a game of gotcha" with Smith. — James Varney (@jvarneyTP) May 4, 2012 NFL official in ? was Adolpho Birch. His involvement, league sources say, was key reason NFLPA advised players not to meet with NFL in NYC. — James Varney (@jvarneyTP) 23+00:00">May 4, 2012 NFL’s “independent” counsel really isn’t Posted by Mike Florio on May 4, 2012, 10:49 PM EDT Edited May 5, 2012 by rajncajn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cunning Runt Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 I think the NFL is intentionally and probably rightly keeping this close to the vest. I think if things got out, there might be a whole bunch of other teams with players that come out and say "we did such and such on our team". I think the NFL wants one blatant example in order to send the message throughout the league. I think putting everyyhing out there would open Pandora's Box and the NFL would be forced to act on it all and I'm sure they'd prefer to keep this under wraps. They have their example. Move on. And for what it's worth, that's enough for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditkaless Wonders Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 The players union may want the information, but they will not let the fans see it. Imagine. If any of this is remotely true we are talking about a conspiracy to commit assault with serious bodily injury. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 A much more realistic picture of what actually went on with the Saints. New Orleans Saints linebacker Scott Shanle explains rewards for 'cart-offs,' says NFL has blown things out of proportion 06/05/12 2:33PM Mike Triplett, The Times-Picayune New Orleans Saints linebacker Scott Shanle offered the most thorough explanation yet Tuesday about the Saints' pay-for-performance program, which the NFL has labeled a "bounty program." Although Shanle admitted some wrongdoing on the Saints' part, he stressed that the league blew things way out of proportion to make an example of the Saints and discourage similar practices around the league. What Shanle described fits with the narrative we've pieced together through various sources, both on and off the record. The Saints did have a pay-for-performance program, which included payouts in the range of $500 and $1,000 for a variety of big plays, including big hits. And those hits were sometimes referred to as "cart-offs" or "knockouts" when players were injured. But Shanle said that didn't mean the intent or purpose of the pay-for-performance system was to target players for injuries. Shanle said those terms were used "in Gregg's language," referring to the fiery defensive coordinator, whose over-the-top motivational tactics have been well-documented. But Shanle insisted that players didn't take Williams literally, and he believes Williams was the best motivator he's had in 10 years in the NFL. "Gregg said crazy stuff," Shanle said. "If you take him literally, you're gonna be locked up. But he was the best motivator I've ever been around." Shanle said the practice of side bets between players is common throughout the NFL, although the program the Saints had in place under Williams may have been more organized than most. Shanle said Williams introduced it as a "fun part of our defense." But that doesn't mean it was a bonanza. He said players would lose money just as easily as gaining money, thanks to fines for penalties and mental errors. So penalties or illegal hits were actually discouraged. "There's been this picture painted that (Jonathan) Vilma was standing in front of the defense before every game picking out players to go after and offering money," Shanle said. "It was blown up to be something more than it is." That makes a whole lot more sense to me than how the league has portrayed it and makes much more sense to the Saints coaches saying that they were punished for their words & not their actions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
electricrelish Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 (edited) Arbitrator sides with NFL Arbitrator Shyam Das has ruled in the NFL's favor and dismissed the NFL Players Association's grievance in the bounty case against four New Orleans Saints players, league spokesman Greg Aiello tweeted Friday. The union had filed a grievance with Das, contending the new collective bargaining agreement prohibits commissioner Roger Goodell from punishing players for any conduct before it was signed last August. The league's investigation showed the bounty program ran from 2009-11. Goodell suspended Saints linebacker Jonathan Vilma for the entire 2012 season and teammateWill Smith for four games. Former Saints defensive end Anthony Hargrove, now with Green Bay, was suspended for eight games, while linebacker Scott Fujita, now with Cleveland, was docked three games. It was the second victory for the NFL in grievances this week. On Monday, Stephen Burbank, a University of Pennsylvania law professor, ruled that Goodell has the authority to discipline the players. The NFLPA later said it would appeal Burbank's decision because it believes salary-cap violations are involved in the payment. Information from The Associated Press was used in this report. http://espn.go.com/n...s-saints-was-ok Edited June 8, 2012 by electricrelish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 http://mobile.nola.com/advnola/pm_29228/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=GxoNqjkb This is a Saints reporter, so he's probably just as biased as I am. Any of you non-homers care to comment so I can have a clear picture of how much of this I should take with a grain of salt? Or do I have a valid reason to be a little pissed off? I honestly don't know anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delusions of grandeur Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 (edited) http://mobile.nola.c...ntguid=GxoNqjkb This is a Saints reporter, so he's probably just as biased as I am. Any of you non-homers care to comment so I can have a clear picture of how much of this I should take with a grain of salt? Or do I have a valid reason to be a little pissed off? I honestly don't know anymore. Yes, I think you should stay plenty pissed off. It will make the transition easier when you beocme an afterthought in the NFC South... Na seriously, in hte upcoming appeals the NFL will have to be transparent with whatever evidence they have, and so I think time will tell how good of a case they have, and how much you might be able to claim a witch-hunt. My first inclination is to believe that the NFL had no interest in publicizing and punishing something that would be better swept under the rug if true, and have no incentive to make public if untrue, however... Edited June 16, 2012 by delusions of grandeur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 How pissed off are the players being punished? Or the NFLPA? Or other players in the NFL who may fear being unjustly punished by the NFL? I'd wait to see how those folks react before getting too pissed off, because really they have a lot more to lose than you do. They're the ones who have a right to demand to see some evidence to justify the punishment. I kind of thought this issue was just going away, but apparently it is going to get dragged on for a few more months possibly right into the NFL regular season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowboutthemCowboys Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 According to Shefter some evidence has come to light..a slide from a Saints computer of Dog the bounty hunter with a caption something like.."time to go hunting for bounties, no apologies. Also details of who had exactly how much stake in the $35000 on Favres head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 League officials displayed a computer slide obtained from the Saints, dating from before a January 2011 playoff game against the Seahawks and showing three photos of Seattle players with "Now it's time to do our job. Collect bounty $$$!. No apologies. Let's go hunting" printed on it. The photos are of ex-Seahawks quarterback Matt Hasselbeck and Seahawks receiver Mike Williams and running back Marshawn Lynch. The host Seahawks won the game 41-36. Worse bounty hunters evah! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flemingd Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) [/font][/color][/left] Worse bounty hunters evah! warning: NSFW or kids! Edited June 19, 2012 by flemingd 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverback Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 warning: NSFW or kids! That some funny shat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Beatings Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 warning: NSFW or kids! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Official Statement from Saints Assistant Head Coach Joe Vitt:Information released by the NFL to the NFLPA yesterday resulted in the media inaccurately reporting that I was accused of pledging money to an incentive or a so called "bounty" program. The NFL never accused me of such conduct because I did not pledge any money for any incentive, pay for performance, bounty or any other alleged program in connection with any game, including the 2010 NFC Championship.The Commissioner confirmed that there is no such allegation or suspicion in a conversation that we had today and the NFL has publicly sought to clarify that the document that has been mischaracterized was not intended to implicate me -- formally or informally. I reaffirmed my pledge to the Commissioner to be an agent for change in helping to find new ways and practices to make our game safer for all players. I look forward to continued conversations with the league on this matter.Finally, it cannot be emphasized enough, none of our players, particularly those who are facing suspensions, ever crossed the white line with the intent to injure an opponent. I am proud of our players and stand behind them 100% and will do whatever I can to help restore their good names. Keep in mind, this is referring to the same hand-written notes that the NFL is using as their "smoking gun" evidence against the players. The NFL still will not allow the NFLPA the view the actual notes, only a typed copy and will not divulge who provided the notes, who wrote them or where they came from. I really can't understand why, if this is enough evidence to convict the players, then why isn't it good enough for Vitt too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajh2 Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Posted By Hall of Fame: Posted Today, 11:19 PM Quote Official Statement from Saints Assistant Head Coach Joe Vitt:Information released by the NFL to the NFLPA yesterday resulted in the media inaccurately reporting that I was accused of pledging money to an incentive or a so called "bounty" program. The NFL never accused me of such conduct because I did not pledge any money for any incentive, pay for performance, bounty or any other alleged program in connection with any game, including the 2010 NFC Championship.The Commissioner confirmed that there is no such allegation or suspicion in a conversation that we had today and the NFL has publicly sought to clarify that the document that has been mischaracterized was not intended to implicate me -- formally or informally. I reaffirmed my pledge to the Commissioner to be an agent for change in helping to find new ways and practices to make our game safer for all players. I look forward to continued conversations with the league on this matter.Finally, it cannot be emphasized enough, none of our players, particularly those who are facing suspensions, ever crossed the white line with the intent to injure an opponent. I am proud of our players and stand behind them 100% and will do whatever I can to help restore their good names. Keep in mind, this is referring to the same hand-written notes that the NFL is using as their "smoking gun" evidence against the players. The NFL still will not allow the NFLPA the view the actual notes, only a typed copy and will not divulge who provided the notes, who wrote them or where they came from. I really can't understand why, if this is enough evidence to convict the players, then why isn't it good enough for Vitt too? What the player wants - Vilma , etc - is who ratted them out so they can get even with the person. Football is a retallitory sport in some ways and this is one of them. Unfortunately, the players have to realize that Whistle Blower Laws and EEOC Laws apply (Hostile Work Environment); therefore, they will never be allowed to know who talked to the NFL which is as it should be. The players had a chance to talk to Goodell and present their story and refused to do so; therefore, Goodell has to assume that they know they did it and now he knows that they did it and punish them accordingly. Vilma etc al had their chance before the punishment to plead their case and choose not to dop so. It is their fault that the are suspend as long as they are and do not have my sympathy. The witness that came forward is the "smoking gun" and is protected information per our laws. Vilma etc al and their attorneys need to get a lesson in work place law before claim anything about being innocent. The first question they should have asked is, "Is there a witness?" - Answer: "Yes, there is." End of discussion. Vilma is guilty and his whining and crying about getting caught is pathetic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 What the player wants - Vilma , etc - is who ratted them out so they can get even with the person. Football is a retallitory sport in some ways and this is one of them. Unfortunately, the players have to realize that Whistle Blower Laws and EEOC Laws apply (Hostile Work Environment); therefore, they will never be allowed to know who talked to the NFL which is as it should be. The players had a chance to talk to Goodell and present their story and refused to do so; therefore, Goodell has to assume that they know they did it and now he knows that they did it and punish them accordingly. Vilma etc al had their chance before the punishment to plead their case and choose not to dop so. It is their fault that the are suspend as long as they are and do not have my sympathy. The witness that came forward is the "smoking gun" and is protected information per our laws. Vilma etc al and their attorneys need to get a lesson in work place law before claim anything about being innocent. The first question they should have asked is, "Is there a witness?" - Answer: "Yes, there is." End of discussion. Vilma is guilty and his whining and crying about getting caught is pathetic. Actually, that is not accurate at all. I never said the NFLPA requested to know who provided the info, just that it wasn't provided. So you accusing them of trying to go after the whistleblower is just a ridiculous, opinionated statement. The fact that it wasn't provided though should autimatically call into question the validity of the notes and the intent of the person who provided them. The parts of the so-called ledger that were leaked about the injuries paid out vs the Bills have already been invalidated as there were no offensive injuries in that game, only defensive. The the same info that was re-leaked changing it to the Carolina game was also invalidated in the same way. The supposed payout to Roman Harper for knocking out Brandon Jacobs for a series when it was actually Darren Sharper who made the hit. The supposed pledge from Charles Grant of $10,000 when Grant was actually out on IR and was not even present at the time the players were supposedly offering up the bounties.. Showing the actual notes in no way could possibly implement anyone, but it can be used to determine the context and validity and could possibly be used to attempt to match them up with actual injuries in games. Also, Hargrove's agent said in a statement that Hargrove actually had a meeting with the NFL scheduled before the league handed out its punishments, and he was waiting on flight details before the meeting was cancelled by the league without explanation. The league, however, has said that no players agreed to meet with investigators before punishments were handed out. Vilma has also said that he tried to set up a private meeting with the league and was denied. I haven't found the quote from Vilma, but I can link the story about Hargrove if you like. The fact of the matter is that the league flat out lied about it the same way they did when they claimed that Hargrove, in his declaration, admitted his participation in the bounty program. Hargrove did not admit participation or even that a bounty program existed.. They also lied about Orenstein sending bounty emails to Sean Payton (it was actually sent to a PR director and wasn't meant to be anything more than a joke). More recently, they said that Orenstein corroberrated the claim that Vilma put up the $10,000 bounty on Favre. Orenstien has since denied ever telling them anything like that & the league, not surprisingly, has no signed statement or recording of him saying that. They also lied when they made this statement: 9. A summary prepared following a Saints preseason game included the statement, “1 Cart-off – Crank up the John Deer (sic) Tractor” in reference to a hit on an opposing player. Similar statements are reflected in prepared documents or slides in connection with other games in multiple seasons. A review of the game films confirms that opposing players were injured on the plays identified in the documents. as it has been proven that no such injures have occured from defensive hits, as evidenced by the running joke that the Saints were very poor at implementing a pay-for-injury system. How about the way they are trying to sell Hargrove saying "Bobby, pay me my money" for knocking out Favre when he wasn't even involved in the play that knocked Favre out of the game? How about the fact that they, themselves wrote Gregg Williams "apology", which according to Vilma's lawyer, Willams has now recanted? How about the fact that they lied about having "50,000 pages of evidence" evidinced by the fact that they could only come up with 200 pages to turn over to the NFLPA, much of which was an article and a blog, both written after the players were suspended? And why did the NFL also sensationalize the situation by stating 22-27 players involved, but only punish 4? I will say one thing is for certain, as bad as the Saints were at implementing a pay-for-injury program, the league is way worse at performing an investigation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Dick Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 warning: NSFW or kids! Oh holy hell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajh2 Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Rajncajn, I did not accuse you of anything. As far as Hargrove goes, he still could have taken the next flight to see Goodell and called Goodell and told him he wanted to talk as was delayed. So why did he not do this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajh2 Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Rajcajn, who is the witness that talked to Goodell? I do not, do you? Goodell has to protect the witness who provided the documentation because of the hand writing gives away the person. This person is the central figure in the investigation and probably completes the notes that were provided. That is provides detail and scope of the notes in addition to what the situation is. All of this information is valuable in determining who the person is. This person is very very important and is the missing link in all the evidence. The coaches have already admitted the situation exsisted so how could the players deny the situation in the locker room? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Rajcajn, who is the witness that talked to Goodell? I do not, do you? I & other Saints fans have a good idea and it was a coach who was released from the organization and thought that he was blackballed from the league by Williams and Payton. If it was him then he certainly has very good reason to try to distort facts in order to make the Saints look worse than what they are. Goodell has to protect the witness who provided the documentation because of the hand writing gives away the person. This person is the central figure in the investigation and probably completes the notes that were provided. That is provides detail and scope of the notes in addition to what the situation is. All of this information is valuable in determining who the person is. This person is very very important and is the missing link in all the evidence. The question still remains, what is the motive of the source? I've listed several inaccuacies and/or falsifications that can be proven already. Just how reliable should this source be and how responsible is it for the league to base their judgements on this source? The coaches have already admitted the situation exsisted so how could the players deny the situation in the locker room? Well that's news to me. Here's Payton & Loomis' statement: We acknowledge that the violations disclosed by the NFL during their investigation of our club happened under our watch. We take full responsibility. This has brought undue hardship on Mr. Benson, who had nothing to do with this activity. He has been nothing but supportive and for that we both apologize to him. These are serious violations and we understand the negative impact it has had on our game. Both of us have made it clear within our organization that this will never happen again, and make that same promise to the NFL and most importantly to all of our fans. I don't see anywhere in that statement where the admitted to anything but being the people in charge at the time. Vitt has repeatedly said in press conferences since that the Saints are being punished for the "spoken word" and not for actions on the field and we've already gone over Gregg Williams' statement. When faced with never working in your profession again or towing the company line then what would you do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 warning: NSFW or kids! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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