114 replies to this topic

[Azazello1313]

detlef, on 10 August 2012 - 11:26 AM, said:

How out-of-hand and irrational is the LeBron hate?

I was driving around today and caught the end of the Dan Patrick show.  The poll today was who is more hated right now, him or Dwight Howard.  Howard won but only by something like 55%.  Really?  Should have been a complete no-brainer.  Like 80%

Let's see.  One has been having a temper tantrum, demanding that his team trade him to one place in particular (which destroys the team's leverage), after essentially getting the coach and GM fired.

The other is a few years removed from having played out his entire contract and exercising his rights as a FA to go where he wants and simply had an ill-advised show and premature celebration.  Oh, and since then, he's won the championship.

Seriously, if LeBron is hated by not only Cleveland, but seemingly all of America, how bad should it be for Howard?

it's like barry bonds.  lebron's the face of the narcissistic cesspool the NBA has come, just as bonds came to be so emblematic of the steroid era in baseball.  people hate the figurehead, but what they really hate is what the figurehead represents.  with bonds and with bronbron, it's pretty easy to point the finger elsewhere -- so and so is a bigger cheater or more of a d00chebag -- but the hate always flows most naturally to the most high-profile guy.  and honestly, I don't see it as being unwarranted on any level.  this "superteam" crap is bad for the league, IMO, and no one bears more blame for the phenomenon than lebron.

[detlef]

Azazello1313, on 16 August 2012 - 03:13 PM, said:

it's like barry bonds.  lebron's the face of the narcissistic cesspool the NBA has come, just as bonds came to be so emblematic of the steroid era in baseball.  people hate the figurehead, but what they really hate is what the figurehead represents.  with bonds and with bronbron, it's pretty easy to point the finger elsewhere -- so and so is a bigger cheater or more of a d00chebag -- but the hate always flows most naturally to the most high-profile guy.  and honestly, I don't see it as being unwarranted on any level.  this "superteam" crap is bad for the league, IMO, and no one bears more blame for the phenomenon than lebron.

That's just plain silly.

There have been "super teams" for as long as any league has existed.  The only difference is that, now the players are the ones calling the shots.  And even that's not entirely a new thing (as I'll get to later).

When the Celtics and Lakers were assembling amazing rosters in the 80s, it was basketball at it's finest and we thank those teams for bringing the NBA back from its near demise in the late 70s, when the finals were on tape delay.  Nobody hates on OKC for having 3 great young players, because they did it the way we're used to.  Some suit made some good draft picks and/or some great trades or FA moves.

The Packers of the 60s, Browns of the 50s, Steelers of the 70s, Niners of the 80s, Cowboys of the 90s, Pats of the 00s.  Unless you're a fan of their rival, you're cool with that.

Edmonton Oilers of the 80s?  Whatever other dynasties have run hockey over time?

The Big Red Machine?

I'll leave out the Yanks because they do have plenty of haters.  However, there's yet another example of how inane it is to put the "super teams" movement at the feet of LeBron.

We're all cool with a bunch of great players all being on one team, provided it's because the suits are the ones putting it together.  Heaven forbid the players initiate the same thing, that's just uncalled for.

In fact, before the players started initiating this, we actually applauded players for sacrificing singular glory and/or money to be on a great team.  When Gary Payton turned down a raise to go play for the Heat and stayed with the stacked Sonics team he was on, trying to win a title, we all pointed to what a class move that was.  Looking for a ring instead of a paycheck.

Hell, what about Barkley going to Houston?  Malone going to the Lakers?  We may have not applauded those obvious moves to chase a trophy, but we sure didn't vilify them.

So why now?

[detlef]

And did you just mention LeBron and Barry Bonds in the same breath?  Barry Bonds, who, besides being one of the poster children for cheating in baseball, was also notorious for being a complete and total prick at every turn.

[wirehairman]

detlef, on 16 August 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

Malone going to the Lakers?

For the record, I vilified Malone and Payton for going to the Lakers because . . . well, they're the Lakers and they cheat.

[Azazello1313]

detlef, on 16 August 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

That's just plain silly.

There have been "super teams" for as long as any league has existed.  The only difference is that, now the players are the ones calling the shots.  And even that's not entirely a new thing (as I'll get to later).

When the Celtics and Lakers were assembling amazing rosters in the 80s, it was basketball at it's finest and we thank those teams for bringing the NBA back from its near demise in the late 70s, when the finals were on tape delay.  Nobody hates on OKC for having 3 great young players, because they did it the way we're used to.  Some suit made some good draft picks and/or some great trades or FA moves.

The Packers of the 60s, Browns of the 50s, Steelers of the 70s, Niners of the 80s, Cowboys of the 90s, Pats of the 00s.  Unless you're a fan of their rival, you're cool with that.

Edmonton Oilers of the 80s?  Whatever other dynasties have run hockey over time?

The Big Red Machine?

I'll leave out the Yanks because they do have plenty of haters.  However, there's yet another example of how inane it is to put the "super teams" movement at the feet of LeBron.

the yankees are the only real valid comparison, and here's why.  dominant teams are only really a problem in fans' eyes if they somehow offend the basic sense that there is a level playing field, and that the game is not somehow "rigged".  sports leagues go to great lengths to try to establish this level playing field among its various franchises.  they do this by having a draft with the worst teams going first, free agency rules, a CBA, etc.  the NFL has been by far the most successful among the big 4 at creating and sustaining this relatively level playing field over a prolonged period, and it is no coincidence that it has been far and away the most successful league in the country, particularly in the smaller markets and such.  baseball has been on the decline in recent decades, and I don't think it's a stretch to think that is closely associated with fan annoyance at the payroll disparity and its effects, where it is perceived that a number of teams basically act as the yankees farm teams.

Quote

We're all cool with a bunch of great players all being on one team, provided it's because the suits are the ones putting it together.  Heaven forbid the players initiate the same thing, that's just uncalled for.

who is calling the shots is not really the issue.  although if it were completely up to the players, they'd probably just have the olympic team on a globetrotter-esque against 31 versions of the "washington generals".  a "player run league" is just not a concept to follow.  I think one thing that really rubs fans the wrong way are situations where teams can lose their best players and get squat in return.  The NFL, again, has done a pretty good job with this, giving players a certain amount of say over what teams they play for but in a way where the old team typically gets something in return.  the Lebron situation is the complete antithesis of all of that, and it symbolizes a turn the NBA has taken in the last few years that most fan's don't like.  you asked why so many fans "hate" him, well I think that's why.  

[Azazello1313]

detlef, on 16 August 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

Hell, what about Barkley going to Houston?  Malone going to the Lakers?  We may have not applauded those obvious moves to chase a trophy, but we sure didn't vilify them.

So why now?

detlef, on 16 August 2012 - 05:05 PM, said:

And did you just mention LeBron and Barry Bonds in the same breath?  Barry Bonds, who, besides being one of the poster children for cheating in baseball, was also notorious for being a complete and total prick at every turn.

as opposed to comparing a 50 year-old karl malone to a 25 year-old Lebron?  

the point of the bonds/bron comparison, as I thought I made clear, is that both, as the best players of the era to be caught up in a situation that turns fans off to the game, come to symbolize everything the fans hate about that situation.  how friendly they are to reporters is not really germane to the issue, far as I can tell.

[detlef]

Dude, you blamed LeBron for the "superteam" deal (in fact said he is more to blame than anyone else) and are apparently prepared to ignore the litany of "superteams" that existed long before the Heat.

There's not really much point in continuing this discussion if you're not prepared to do so within the realm of that which is not make-believe.

[Azazello1313]

detlef, on 24 August 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

Dude, you blamed LeBron for the "superteam" deal (in fact said he is more to blame than anyone else) and are apparently prepared to ignore the litany of "superteams" that existed long before the Heat.

I think I made it pretty clear I was talking about the recent phenomenon of top players refusing to negotiate with their present teams in order to join up with each other in some city with a swanky nightlife.  the phenomenon encompassing lebron, carmelo anthony, dwight howard, deron williams, chris paul, chris bosh, etc.

did you honestly think I was saying that fans see lebron as an emblem of the lakers/celtics/bulls dominance in eras gone by?  I am sure you didn't, so you are just being a tool here.

the fact that there have been "superteams" in the past does not invalidate the notion that this recent phenomenon exists and that it is hurting the league's image with many of its fans.

Edited by Azazello1313, 24 August 2012 - 02:53 PM.

[detlef]

Azazello1313, on 16 August 2012 - 03:13 PM, said:

it's like barry bonds.  lebron's the face of the narcissistic cesspool the NBA has come, just as bonds came to be so emblematic of the steroid era in baseball.  people hate the figurehead, but what they really hate is what the figurehead represents.  with bonds and with bronbron, it's pretty easy to point the finger elsewhere -- so and so is a bigger cheater or more of a d00chebag -- but the hate always flows most naturally to the most high-profile guy.  and honestly, I don't see it as being unwarranted on any level.  this "superteam" crap is bad for the league, IMO, and no one bears more blame for the phenomenon than lebron.

Azazello1313, on 24 August 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

I think I made it pretty clear I was talking about the recent phenomenon of top players refusing to negotiate with their present teams in order to join up with each other in some city with a swanky nightlife.  the phenomenon encompassing lebron, carmelo anthony, dwight howard, deron williams, chris paul, chris bosh, etc.

did you honestly think I was saying that fans see lebron as an emblem of the lakers/celtics/bulls dominance in eras gone by?  I am sure you didn't, so you are just being a tool here.

the fact that there have been "superteams" in the past does not invalidate the notion that this recent phenomenon exists and that it is hurting the league's image with many of its fans.

The above was what you posted.  Your first post in this thread, so it's not like you did a better job of "making it pretty clear" that what you really meant to say was what you elaborated in the 2nd post quoted.  You just mentioned "superteam" which one can fairly take to mean "a collection of superstars".  And, if you're talking about "a collection of superstars", then you can fairly include every other such team that has existed.  Like the Lakers and Celtics, and Oilers and Big Red Machine, and so on.

Regardless, unlike Melo, and Howard, and Williams, and Paul, for that matter, LeBron didn't try and force a trade or any of the crap that the others did.  He didn't force anyone's hand or pigeon hole his former team with a really short list of teams he'd be willing to be traded to.  He played out his contract and then exercised his right to sign with whomever he chose as a Free Agent.

Are you truly implying that a player only sort of has the right to be a free agent.  That, once they honor their contract, they're essentially free to sign with whomever they choose, provided they realize that they'll be hated for doing so?

Have you ever left a job for a better opportunity?

Edited by detlef, 25 August 2012 - 02:42 PM.

[Azazello1313]

detlef, on 25 August 2012 - 02:33 PM, said:

The above was what you posted.  Your first post in this thread, so it's not like you did a better job of "making it pretty clear" that what you really meant to say was what you elaborated in the 2nd post quoted.  You just mentioned "superteam" which one can fairly take to mean "a collection of superstars".  And, if you're talking about "a collection of superstars", then you can fairly include every other such team that has existed.  Like the Lakers and Celtics, and Oilers and Big Red Machine, and so on.

so you really did think I was arguing that people "blame" lebron for the cousy/russel celtics?  

Quote

Regardless, unlike Melo, and Howard, and Williams, and Paul, for that matter, LeBron didn't try and force a trade or any of the crap that the others did.  He didn't force anyone's hand or pigeon hole his former team with a really short list of teams he'd be willing to be traded to.  He played out his contract and then exercised his right to sign with whomever he chose as a Free Agent.

no, what lebron did to cleveland was worse.  FAR worse, and it isn't even debateable.  melo, howard, et al at least made it clear they weren't going to sign with the old team.  those guys at least allowed their old team to know unambiguously what was coming, so they could get some value while they were able.  lebron left them hanging, kept letting them think he'd stay so they'd gut their future and take on bad salaries to surround him with the talent to "win now" only to watch him choke in the first round of the playoffs and then give them the coldest blow-off ever.   the nuggets got good value trading melo, and they're now arguably better off without him.  the jazz got somewhat decent value out of williams.  the magic got pennies on the dollar, but that's at least partly on them.  the cavs got absolutely nothing.

teams that get high lottery picks now get to draft a 19 year old, watch him get good for 3 or 4 years, and then send him off to one of 4 or 5 teams for reduced value if they're lucky, squat if they're not.  that is where the league is going if they don't figure out some way to change it.

and my point is, many fans don't like this phenomenon, they see it making a mockery of competitive balance in the league, and in their minds lebron epitomizes it.

[detlef]

Azazello1313, on 25 August 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

so you really did think I was arguing that people "blame" lebron for the cousy/russel celtics?  



no, what lebron did to cleveland was worse.  FAR worse, and it isn't even debateable.  melo, howard, et al at least made it clear they weren't going to sign with the old team.  those guys at least allowed their old team to know unambiguously what was coming, so they could get some value while they were able.  lebron left them hanging, kept letting them think he'd stay so they'd gut their future and take on bad salaries to surround him with the talent to "win now" only to watch him choke in the first round of the playoffs and then give them the coldest blow-off ever.   the nuggets got good value trading melo, and they're now arguably better off without him.  the jazz got somewhat decent value out of williams.  the magic got pennies on the dollar, but that's at least partly on them.  the cavs got absolutely nothing.

teams that get high lottery picks now get to draft a 19 year old, watch him get good for 3 or 4 years, and then send him off to one of 4 or 5 teams for reduced value if they're lucky, squat if they're not.  that is where the league is going if they don't figure out some way to change it.

and my point is, many fans don't like this phenomenon, they see it making a mockery of competitive balance in the league, and in their minds lebron epitomizes it.

No, but what I did think is that you, like others, were so pre-disposed to hate, that you'd pretend that these collections of "superteams" was something new.  Just like the photo that inspired this whole thread.  The one that showed Bird, Magic, and Jordan in Heat unis saying, "We'd have done this, but we just decided to win titles on our own".  As if those guys actually did win titles on their own.

But everyone is prepared to ignore simple facts, just like you are now to believe what they want to believe.  Just like pretending LeBron choked in the first round.  He put a batch of stiffs on his back and took them to the finals, putting up some amazing games along the way.  What?  They got him Jamison?  An old broken down Shaq?

[Azazello1313]

detlef, on 25 August 2012 - 06:55 PM, said:

But everyone is prepared to ignore simple facts, just like you are now to believe what they want to believe.  Just like pretending LeBron choked in the first round.  He put a batch of stiffs on his back and took them to the finals, putting up some amazing games along the way.  What?  They got him Jamison?  An old broken down Shaq?

oh I'm sorry, it was the second round he choked in 2010.  and yeah they paid a lot to get shaq, jamison, they got the #1 seed.  they were all in to give him the assets he thought he needed.  and the way he played them made sure they instantly made them the anus of the league.  you seem to want to give him props for not putting cleveland through trade demands.  I'm sure cleveland says "IF ONLY he'd demanded a trade".  they could have got a LOT for lebron.

[detlef]

Great, so Cleveland tried to get him some help, they just weren't very good at it because they overpaid for a broken down Shaq and basically a journeyman.  I guess mediocrity, provided you try, is to be rewarded for management?

When Jordan left the Bulls for those two years, it's not like they just completely sucked.  That would seem like a decent litmus test for what sort of team they managed to put around him.  Cleveland, on the other hand, went straight to the cellar.

Could it be that he took a look at what they were doing?  Failing to do any more than cobble together random pieces they expected him to put on his back and figured, this is going nowhere.

[Ditkaless Wonders]

I like to temper my hate for Lebron and the heat so that I have enough hatred left over to give Kobe and the Lakers their fair share of abuse.

[detlef]

Ditkaless Wonders, on 28 August 2012 - 06:57 AM, said:

I like to temper my hate for Lebron and the heat so that I have enough hatred left over to give Kobe and the Lakers their fair share of abuse.

Hate me because I'm a champion