Bowe

[fingfootball]

Am I missing something here or is Bowe just a plain dumbass? He isnt a top 5 WR and his franchise tag gets him 9 million dollars, even if he went to another team I dont think he would get that kind of money. If he wants a longterm contract shouldnt he be at camp? And if he wants off the team shouldnt he be giving himself the best opportunity to prove himself this year? He's gonna screw around and show up for week 1 to collect his check and he's gonna suck because he in unconditioned. I wish the Steelers would trade us Mike Wallace for him.

[Ditkaless Wonders]

WR's, and many fans as well, misunderstand their value. They think because they score the touchdowns that they created the touchdown. They forget they are a cog in a greater piece. They are like the spear tip which thinks it alone killed the lion, forgetting the shaft upon which it was mounted, the arm which propelled it, the eyes which helped aim it, and the brain which worked the whole thing out.

Edited July 28, 2012 by Ditkaless Wonders

[Bronco Billy]

The other facts in WR thinking that they seem to lose track of is that they are completely reliant on a QB to get the the ball downfield and the O-line's ability to keep the D off the QB to provide the time to do so; and that even the greatest WRs are limited in the number of touches they are going to get - even if a team force feeds them the football.

 

Any QB can simply hand the ball to a RB, and even soild but not great RBs can gobble up 20+ touches a game every game and be productive for an offense. WRs are much more QB/O reliant on how they get their ability to produce - and that neglects good CBs being able to negate portions of their productive ability. It's like these guys sit and watch highlight reels of themselves and consider themselves completely indispensible in an offense, when in fact that isn't the case. Moving the ball downfield at 4 yds/play isn't sexy, but it can be damned effective - sometimes a lot moreso than a couple of superb one handed catches 20 yds downfield. The game doesn't begin and end with them as some of them seem to think.

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Since the nfl won't allow a new contract for tagged players, well, it just seems like he wants some personal time lol

 

 

Well if he just needs a moment I say he should take one.

[detlef]

Let me say for starters that I can't fathom why $9 mil is not enough for Bowe. Like others have said, he's not top 5 and that's top 5 money. On the other hand, in terms of offensive players, right after QBs, I do think the guys who should be able to command top dollar are WRs, not RBs. I don't agree that they're more dependant than RBs on the team around them because a great one can either get open better than others or come down with the ball better than others. Which can mean a TD or a long play even if they don't gain a single yard after the catch.

 

Compare that to a RB, who absolutely needs a solid and productive offense to make sure they're not making their first cut 2 yards behind the line. A decent RB who doesn't need to worry about getting hit until he's past the LOS will more than likely out-produce a great one who doesn't have that luxury. And then there's the shelf life. Which is why big pay days for RBs in their 2nd contract are basically "thank yous" for what they've done more than an investment that the team should be expecting much of a return on. And that's why a guy like MJD is having such a hard time. Dude has absolutely shown that he's an elite back, but the team knows the clock is ticking given his position.

 

If Larry Fitz was a RB, we'd be concerned that his contract will out-live his usefulness. But because he's a WR, there's barely a question. Sure, a freak injury could change that, but he's not getting pounded by LBs on the regular.

[Bronco Billy]

Let me say for starters that I can't fathom why $9 mil is not enough for Bowe. Like others have said, he's not top 5 and that's top 5 money. On the other hand, in terms of offensive players, right after QBs, I do think the guys who should be able to command top dollar are WRs, not RBs. I don't agree that they're more dependant than RBs on the team around them because a great one can either get open better than others or come down with the ball better than others. Which can mean a TD or a long play even if they don't gain a single yard after the catch.

 

Compare that to a RB, who absolutely needs a solid and productive offense to make sure they're not making their first cut 2 yards behind the line. A decent RB who doesn't need to worry about getting hit until he's past the LOS will more than likely out-produce a great one who doesn't have that luxury. And then there's the shelf life. Which is why big pay days for RBs in their 2nd contract are basically "thank yous" for what they've done more than an investment that the team should be expecting much of a return on. And that's why a guy like MJD is having such a hard time. Dude has absolutely shown that he's an elite back, but the team knows the clock is ticking given his position.

 

If Larry Fitz was a RB, we'd be concerned that his contract will out-live his usefulness. But because he's a WR, there's barely a question. Sure, a freak injury could change that, but he's not getting pounded by LBs on the regular.

 

 

I'd use the following anecdote to demonstrate my disagreement with your argument above:

 

Initial assumtpion: Larry Fitzgerald is a better WR than Matt Forte is a RB. Fitz is arguably the best WR in the game, with CJ a possible exception. Forte has what - at the very least AD, MJD, Rice, McCoy, Foster, SJax ahead of him as well as arguably CJIII, Bradshaw, Turner. Forte fits in around what, maybe #10 +/-? So while Fitz is arguably the best WR in the game, Forte fits in near the top 3rd of starters in the NFL.

 

Forte has averaged 104 total ypg in his career. His very worst year, he put up 1400 total yds. And this is despite some terrible O-line play his whole career in CHI and a passing game that has never been in the top half of the league in any of his 4 seasons.

 

Fitz on the other hand has averaged less than 78 ypg for his career and has managed to pass Forte's minimum total yds in one year of 1400 yds in only half of his 8 seasons and averages more than 350 yds less per season for his career than Forte has averaged in his career. When Fitz had Warner (or Skelton last season) throwing to him, he could be magnificent - dominating and almost unstoppable - and yet never had one season where he has averaged 100+ yds/game. When he had Leinart and Anderson under center, Fitz was solid but hardly had great seasons. He was and is at the mercy of how good his QB is.

 

So, as a whole Forte, the top 10+/- RB, gets his every year no matter what. He moves the ball for CHI. Why? Because he has more opportunities and doesn't have to rely on a great O-line or a great passing game to help him out. It's the nature of being a RB. Fitz, the best or at the very least one of the two or three best WRs in the league his entire career, can barely match Forte in production even when he has a great QB and falls far behind in production when he doesn't. It's the nature of being a WR.

 

The difference between the touches the two guys have had because of the responsibilities and needs of their respective positions. Forte gets to touch the ball over 220 times per season more than Fitz does.

 

I'll let you chew on that a little and respond.

Edited July 28, 2012 by Bronco Billy

[RJV]

The other facts in WR thinking that they seem to lose track of is that they are completely reliant on a QB to get the the ball downfield and the O-line's ability to keep the D off the QB to provide the time to do so; and that even the greatest WRs are limited in the number of touches they are going to get - even if a team force feeds them the football.

 

Any QB can simply hand the ball to a RB, and even soild but not great RBs can gobble up 20+ touches a game every game and be productive for an offense. WRs are much more QB/O reliant on how they get their ability to produce - and that neglects good CBs being able to negate portions of their productive ability. It's like these guys sit and watch highlight reels of themselves and consider themselves completely indispensible in an offense, when in fact that isn't the case. Moving the ball downfield at 4 yds/play isn't sexy, but it can be damned effective - sometimes a lot moreso than a couple of superb one handed catches 20 yds downfield. The game doesn't begin and end with them as some of them seem to think.

 

BB I couldnt agree more.

[ABearWithFurniture]

They forget they are a cog in a greater piece. They are like the spear tip which thinks it alone killed the lion, forgetting the shaft upon which it was mounted, the arm which propelled it, the eyes which helped aim it, and the brain which worked the whole thing out.

 

 

Man, that's beautiful...

[detlef]

I'd use the following anecdote to demonstrate my disagreement with your argument above:

 

Initial assumtpion: Larry Fitzgerald is a better WR than Matt Forte is a RB. Fitz is arguably the best WR in the game, with CJ a possible exception. Forte has what - at the very least AD, MJD, Rice, McCoy, Foster, SJax ahead of him as well as arguably CJIII, Bradshaw, Turner. Forte fits in around what, maybe #10 +/-? So while Fitz is arguably the best WR in the game, Forte fits in near the top 3rd of starters in the NFL.

 

Forte has averaged 104 total ypg in his career. His very worst year, he put up 1400 total yds. And this is despite some terrible O-line play his whole career in CHI and a passing game that has never been in the top half of the league in any of his 4 seasons.

 

Fitz on the other hand has averaged less than 78 ypg for his career and has managed to pass Forte's minimum total yds in one year of 1400 yds in only half of his 8 seasons and averages more than 350 yds less per season for his career than Forte has averaged in his career. When Fitz had Warner (or Skelton last season) throwing to him, he could be magnificent - dominating and almost unstoppable - and yet never had one season where he has averaged 100+ yds/game. When he had Leinart and Anderson under center, Fitz was solid but hardly had great seasons. He was and is at the mercy of how good his QB is.

 

So, as a whole Forte, the top 10+/- RB, gets his every year no matter what. He moves the ball for CHI. Why? Because he has more opportunities and doesn't have to rely on a great O-line or a great passing game to help him out. It's the nature of being a RB. Fitz, the best or at the very least one of the two or three best WRs in the league his entire career, can barely match Forte in production even when he has a great QB and falls far behind in production when he doesn't. It's the nature of being a WR.

 

The difference between the touches the two guys have had because of the responsibilities and needs of their respective positions. Forte gets to touch the ball over 220 times per season more than Fitz does.

 

I'll let you chew on that a little and respond.

 

The same logic you are using would mean that the first round of FF drafts should be mostly QBs. After all, QBs, "due to the nature of their position" put up more points than other positions. Right?

 

Now, before you freak out, yet again, about comparing FF to Football, I'm only doing so to illustrate relative value and importance. That, just because a bell cow back puts up more yards than a premier WR doesn't mean any specific RB in particular is worth more than a premier WR. Now, I happen to think Forte is a special talent. However, perhaps the fact that he's only been able to put top 10 numbers as opposed to top 3 or top 5 is because of the very fact that I've pointed to. The bit about how important it is for a RB to have a good O-line and be on a team that can move the ball in general. For all we know, if you put him on Houston, he's putting up the kind of numbers Foster has been of late.

 

Which brings up a fine segue. Arian Foster. I had him in two leagues last year so I made a point of watching as often as I could. You know what my favorite thing about him was? That he had to make his first move or break his first tackle 5 yards downfield. It's kinda nice.

 

My point was never that top WRs put up numbers that are bigger than RBs, but rather that you overestimated how much a top WR relies on the rest of the team compared to how much a RB does. Additionally, that locking up a top WR for big money makes more sense than doing so with a RB because of their relative longevity. After all, arguably the best WR in football was only putting up top 10 RB numbers even when he had Warner throwing to him, that also illustrates that the surrounding situation may not be the end all, be all you make it sound like.

 

I'm also not saying that WRs don't rely at all on the team around them, but rather no more so than a RB. Surely, Fitz put up better numbers when Warner was under center, but he's put up pretty damned good numbers regardless. Same with CJ. This last, monster season was due, in large part to Stafford, but let's not pretend he wasn't pretty damned effective already despite being on a crappy team with a QB by who's healthy and doesn't suck approach.

 

Case in point. MJD is about as old as Fitz was when AZ pulled up the Brinks truck at his front door. Certainly the numbers were eye-popping, but few thought the deal was completely insane. If, however, Jax pays MJD that, it would be ludicrous. Because history has shown that it would be a horrible investment. It would be a "thank you" contract. That's not the case with Fitz. I would imagine AZ fully expects for him to be highly effective throught the duration. Hell, I'm not sure how long it is, but I'd guess he'll get another decent one afterwards.

 

So, use whatever numbers you want, but I'll just go with the fact that the guys who cut the checks seem more comfortable locking down an elite WR for a very rich, long term contract than they do a RB.

Edited July 30, 2012 by detlef

[Footballjoe]

WR's, and many fans as well, misunderstand their value. They think because they score the touchdowns that they created the touchdown. They forget they are a cog in a greater piece. They are like the spear tip which thinks it alone killed the lion, forgetting the shaft upon which it was mounted, the arm which propelled it, the eyes which helped aim it, and the brain which worked the whole thing out.

 

 

What type of speartip / arrowhead? http://www.ehow.com/list_7782492_indian-arrowhead-types-texas.html

[Clubfoothead]

WR's, and many fans as well, misunderstand their value. They think because they score the touchdowns that they created the touchdown. They forget they are a cog in a greater piece. They are like the spear tip which thinks it alone killed the lion, forgetting the shaft upon which it was mounted, the arm which propelled it, the eyes which helped aim it, and the brain which worked the whole thing out.

 

 

That being said, you don't hunt lions with dull sticks. At least not often.

[Ditkaless Wonders]

That being said, you don't hunt lions with dull sticks. At least not often.

 

 

But you can take out a thousand men with the jawbone of an ass, so perhaps T.O. can still find employment.

[Bronco Billy]

But you can take out a thousand men with the jawbone of an ass, so perhaps T.O. can still find employment.