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MJD holdout to extend into regular season?


tazinib1
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The world doesn't work that way. Period!

 

But you know how else it doesn't work? Guys with no leverage don't get to call their shots.

 

A few years ago, when MJD had proven he was top notch and was young enough that his team had every expectation that they'd be able to get 5 good years of play out of him, he had the leverage and he used it.

 

Now, if he was a WR, or a QB or some other player that history says will be able to remain at the top of his game for 5 more years from here, then he, once again, could play this card. "I've proven I'm the best and now guys are getting paid more than me..."

 

Then, all this "he should honor his contract" stuff would be just some dude complaining for no good reason. But now, the guys complaining for no good reason are the ones saying, "he should be rewarded for how well he's done." Because the way he wants to be rewarded is for the team to extend him beyond what is quite likely to be his useful playing age.

Edited by detlef
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Detlef,

I don't think I was definitively wrong when I said that front loaded contracts can be good for the team. That's exactly what the Redskins and Cowboys did and they were penalized 40-10M for it. There are a reasons why a team would front load a players contract to their advantage (salary cap etc)

 

 

That was kind of a unique and nonrecurring situation. What the Redskins and Cowboys did, if I understand it correctly, was to front load alot of contract money into an uncapped year. There was an uncapped year sort of in between labor agreements, not sure exactly how that worked - but the gist of it was that the Redskins and Cowboys, by front loading salaries into that season, were trying to get away with paying more out in salaries than any of the other teams without any salary cap burden.

 

I don't know the specifics beyond that, but they were trying to circumvent the salary cap due to the uncapped year. On a normal, recurring basis, there is no incentive for teams to try to replicate what the Redskins and Cowboys did in this instance, unless there is another uncapped season.

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But you know how else it doesn't work? Guys with no leverage don't get to call their shots.

 

A few years ago, when MJD had proven he was top notch and was young enough that his team had every expectation that they'd be able to get 5 good years of play out of him, he had the leverage and he used it.

 

Now, if he was a WR, or a QB or some other player that history says will be able to remain at the top of his game for 5 more years from here, then he, once again, could play this card. "I've proven I'm the best and now guys are getting paid more than me..."

 

Then, all this "he should honor his contract" stuff would be just some dude complaining for no good reason. But now, the guys complaining for no good reason are the ones saying, "he should be rewarded for how well he's done." Because the way he wants to be rewarded is for the team to extend him beyond what is quite likely to be his useful playing age.

 

 

I don't disagree with any of this at all. In fact I agree with it. The only thing I am saying is that the world in general doesn't "honour their contracts" and I don't see any reason why the NFL should be any different. We might not agree with it and we might think MJD is a greedy illoyal POS, but that will not change anything or prevent the next player in line to do the exact same thing.

 

The whole discussion about whether a player should honour his contract or not is kind of moot. It is not going to change anything and most people would lie if they said they wouldn't do the same. That MJD picked the worst time possible and would have been better off not trying at all is besides the point.

Edited by Papajohn
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I don't disagree with any of this at all. In fact I agree with it. The only thing I am saying is that the world in general doesn't "honour their contracts" and I don't see any reason why the NFL should be any different. We might not agree with it and we might think MJD is a greedy illoyal POS, but that will not change anything or prevent the next player in line to do the exact same thing.

 

The whole discussion about whether a player should honour his contract or not is kind of moot. It is not going to change anything and most people would lie if they said they wouldn't do the same. That MJD picked the worst time possible and would have been better off not trying at all is besides the point.

 

Fair enough, ol' chap. I'm guessing we agree here.
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I don't disagree with any of this at all. In fact I agree with it. The only thing I am saying is that the world in general doesn't "honour their contracts" and I don't see any reason why the NFL should be any different. We might not agree with it and we might think MJD is a greedy illoyal POS, but that will not change anything or prevent the next player in line to do the exact same thing.

 

The whole discussion about whether a player should honour his contract or not is kind of moot. It is not going to change anything and most people would lie if they said they wouldn't do the same. That MJD picked the worst time possible and would have been better off not trying at all is besides the point.

 

 

I think the new CBA is going to cause some things to start changing. Wallace was holding out, PIT not budging he eventually reports. MJD, same situation, if he doesn't report he's going to be screwing himself as much as the Jags. What we say doesn't matter, but what happens with the guys that hold out does. There's also the lingering effect of recent players (mostly RB) who got big contracts and then didn't really produce (notably CJ).

 

This will not end well for MJD, I don't see how he wins.

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This will not end well for MJD, I don't see how he wins.

 

 

Nobody does. I just don't get it. He has already lost over $1 million in training camp fines and now will lose $260k per week in the regular season. That's just silly on his part.

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I think the new CBA is going to cause some things to start changing. Wallace was holding out, PIT not budging he eventually reports. MJD, same situation, if he doesn't report he's going to be screwing himself as much as the Jags. What we say doesn't matter, but what happens with the guys that hold out does. There's also the lingering effect of recent players (mostly RB) who got big contracts and then didn't really produce (notably CJ).

 

This will not end well for MJD, I don't see how he wins.

 

 

Once again I agree, but I think discussing the new CBA (or contracts in general) and how it affects a player's leverage is a completely different discussion. Just look at Revis this season, he wanted to hold out for a new contract but didn't because he would be severely penalized by the Jets if he did so. He agreed to a contract and then had to honour it because of the stipulations of said contract, not because he felt he had to or wanted to.

Edited by Papajohn
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While I agree that MJD has no leverage in this instance, I can totally understand his side of things. He's on one of the worst teams/franchises in the NFL. He figures if his body is going to continue to take this kind of beating over the next 2 years he should be compensated for it. I really think the RB position gets screwed in most cases. In fact, I was surprised that both Rice and Forte got their deals. IMO, new lanquage needs to be written into the CBA specific for the RB position. All RB's should only be signed to 2 year rookie deals. This way they hit FA sooner, while their legs are still fresh, and can get that big payday. The shelf life of a RB is far shorter than any other position in the NFL.

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While I agree that MJD has no leverage in this instance, I can totally understand his side of things. He's on one of the worst teams/franchises in the NFL. He figures if his body is going to continue to take this kind of beating over the next 2 years he should be compensated for it. I really think the RB position gets screwed in most cases. In fact, I was surprised that both Rice and Forte got their deals. IMO, new lanquage needs to be written into the CBA specific for the RB position. All RB's should only be signed to 2 year rookie deals. This way they hit FA sooner, while their legs are still fresh, and can get that big payday. The shelf life of a RB is far shorter than any other position in the NFL.

 

But that's not how it worked out for Jones Drew. They did the right thing and gave him a lucrative extension when he still had (I think) a year left on his rookie contract that paid him $500K. So, he got the big deal when he was still young enough to cash in. That deal was 5 years, $31 Million, with $9 million up front.

 

And everyone is reporting that he's making $4.5 mil, but it's really over $6 million when you spread out his signing bonus. Sure, guys are now getting more than that, but that's been the story for as long as this game has been played. Dude signs a big contract and then someone else gets a bigger one.

Edited by detlef
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While I agree that MJD has no leverage in this instance, I can totally understand his side of things. He's on one of the worst teams/franchises in the NFL. He figures if his body is going to continue to take this kind of beating over the next 2 years he should be compensated for it. I really think the RB position gets screwed in most cases. In fact, I was surprised that both Rice and Forte got their deals. IMO, new lanquage needs to be written into the CBA specific for the RB position. All RB's should only be signed to 2 year rookie deals. This way they hit FA sooner, while their legs are still fresh, and can get that big payday. The shelf life of a RB is far shorter than any other position in the NFL.

 

 

Isn't this simply a function of the market? NFL teams are de-prioritizing RBs and adjusting their spending accordingly - why legislate for them specifically? If you don't like it, play another position and make your money.

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Isn't this simply a function of the market? NFL teams are de-prioritizing RBs and adjusting their spending accordingly - why legislate for them specifically? If you don't like it, play another position and make your money.

 

Well, it's not the end of the world if you've got the skill set to play RB at the pro level. I mean, if you're MJD's shape and size, that's pretty much the only position you can play.

 

So, you spend your teen years banging everything in sight and continue at the college level where they give you an "education" that you're too busy working out and banging college girls to bother with.

 

Then, if you're elite, you sign a nice contract out the gate. If you're just pretty good, you end up getting paid more per year than nearly all of us here make. If you excel at that level, you can redo your contract at the age of 25 for something particularly fat. Something that pays you $5-$7 mil per over the next 4-5 years. Maybe more, maybe less. Then, at about 30, you're done and you somehow need to make it by on the fortune that you've hopefully amassed.

 

You've probably got a bad back and messed up knees. Hopefully you didn't get your bell rung. But it was a nice ride while it was happening.

Edited by detlef
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Nobody does. I just don't get it. He has already lost over $1 million in training camp fines and now will lose $260k per week in the regular season. That's just silly on his part.

 

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Roger the Shrubber: Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say Ni at will to old ladies. There is a pestilence upon this land, nothing is sacred. Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress in this period in history.

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Nobody does. I just don't get it. He has already lost over $1 million in training camp fines and now will lose $260k per week in the regular season. That's just silly on his part.

 

 

He's making a statement and has a backbone, I don't see how people aren't getting it. This man EARNED his right to be paid. He is extremely loyal, hard-working, humble, and talented and accomplished as any RB in the NFL. The only thing that is holding him back from doing his absolute best is the team that he is on! Yet, he never demands a trade (until now, obviously) and sticks with them, puts his head down, never gets in trouble, and leads the NFL in yardage.

 

PAY THE MAN. He's your franchise.

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Isn't this simply a function of the market? NFL teams are de-prioritizing RBs and adjusting their spending accordingly - why legislate for them specifically? If you don't like it, play another position and make your money.

 

 

We are talking about a team that has Gabbert for a QB.

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He's making a statement and has a backbone, I don't see how people aren't getting it. This man EARNED his right to be paid. He is extremely loyal, hard-working, humble, and talented and accomplished as any RB in the NFL. The only thing that is holding him back from doing his absolute best is the team that he is on! Yet, he never demands a trade (until now, obviously) and sticks with them, puts his head down, never gets in trouble, and leads the NFL in yardage.

 

PAY THE MAN. He's your franchise.

 

 

You're right he has earned his right to be paid, and was when he got a 5 year contract worth about $6 million a year including bonus. And now he's saying the money in years 4-5 isn't enough. Funny it was enough when he signed the deal, so what has changed? Other than some other player making more and MJD feeling inferior because of that.

 

And that is the real problem, anytime somebody else is making more money some of the top players think they should immediately get a raise and screw their contract. (Please don't start with the gauranteed contract bit, we all know the big signing bonuses are the trade off for that.) If you want that, work it into your contract that your salary each year is the average of the top 3 paid players at your position. So Rice, CJ, Forte, those guys get new big contrats, BAM, your salary goes up. Nope, better to hold out and screw your team out of a resource they have paid well and committed to for this season.

 

Instead they sign a contract, then 2-3 years in say "He I'm underpaid, pay me more bithces, I've earned it." Oh and BTW I'm sure MJD isn't just going to accept a 2 year deal with no bonus at the same pay as the highest paid RBs. No he'll want 3-5 years, and another $5-20 million signing bonus. And some of you really think that is fair, that the team should just bend over and "pay the man" as you say.

 

Seems totally out of line with any reality, even that of major pro sports. Maybe we should just get rid of long term contracts and only allow 1-2 year deals so that everybody can get paid again every year or two. Of course those big fat bonuses would have to go away or be drastically reduced as well.

 

I mean it isn't like MJD is still playing under a rookie contract making a few hundred thousand a year. In those cases I can see the issue more, like with Forte or Rice.

Edited by stevegrab
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I mean it isn't like MJD is still playing under a rookie contract making a few hundred thousand a year. In those cases I can see the issue more, like with Forte or Rice.

 

 

Maybe I read it wrong, but are you saying it is (more) acceptable to demand a new contract ahead of time if you have outperformed your rookie contract than if you have outperformed a later contract with higher payoff?

Edited by Papajohn
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Maybe I read it wrong, but are you saying it is (more) acceptable to demand a new contract ahead of time if you have outperformed your rookie contract than if you have outperformed a later contract with higher payoff?

 

 

Basically yes. I see more reason for a 2nd/3rd year player to feel like they are drastically outperforming their rookie contract (like Forte and Rice). In MJD's case, he recently signed a contract extension, which likely made him one of the top paid RB at the time. Now 3 years later he feels like he deserves even more, mostly because other guys are getting more. Every year some top player is going to get a contract that pays more than other top players at their position. That isn't a reason to ask for more money. If you want a new contract every couple of years stop signing long term deals.

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Maybe I read it wrong, but are you saying it is (more) acceptable to demand a new contract ahead of time if you have outperformed your rookie contract than if you have outperformed a later contract with higher payoff?

 

First off, yes it is. Because you're talking about the difference between money that, while great for a kid in his early 20s, it's not like you're set for life if you're making $500K a year for a couple of years. So, if you get drafted at a slot where your contract pays that and you prove that you're elite, then yes, you should leverage that to negotiate a contract that pays you "f-u" money. It's about setting yourself up for life. Mind you, whether you have the sense enough to make that money last...

 

From there, it's all about ego. Because, actually, MJD has not outperformed his contract. When he signed it, they were paying him as if he was among the best backs in the league. Which is what he was and has continued to be. So I don't get how he's outperformed that. Sure, since then, guys have signed for more, but that is not a new thing.

 

More importantly, none of that even matters. The reason why I have less problem with young guys demanding a renegotiation of their rookie deal is because they're still young enough that it is not unreasonable for their team to expect a good return. So, it's not a "thank you" deal. It's a deal that makes sense for both sides. What MJD wants is a "thank you" deal. Because what he wants is for Jax to enter a contract that they'll likely regret by the time it's over in order to thank him for playing so well up to now.

 

Do you honestly think he'd be happy if they just kicked him an extra few million per year for the next two years to make his contract (once you factor in the amortized signing bonus he got in 2009) in line with what the highest paid backs are earning? Because it wouldn't be much. Ray Rice was going to be franchised for 7.7 million and the franchise number is based on what the top 5 players at your position are making. Once you factor in the 1/5th of the $9 million signing bonus you could fairly add to each year, they're about 1.5 million per year away.

 

Is that what MJD is holding out for? Doubtful.

Edited by detlef
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I am not saying MJD ourperformed his current contract or that he deserves to be paid more for whatever reason. The only thing I am saying is that these "contract negotiations" happen all the time and in all kinds of industries. I just don't see what makes this situation, or NFL negotiations in general, any different.

In generaI if you have any power or leverage you use it to get more money. If you are don't have any, then you don't, which is why a marginal player foghting for a roster spot would never do this.

 

MJD and/or his agent saw what they perceived to be a good opportunity with little downside to get paid more money and they went with it, and it failed miserably! End og story!

 

It was thought of the same discussion we had last year with the lockout,

Edited by Papajohn
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I am not saying MJD ourperformed his current contract or that he deserves to be paid more for whatever reason. The only thing I am saying is that these "contract negotiations" happen all the time and in all kinds of industries. I just don't see what makes this situation, or NFL negotiations in general, any different.

In generaI if you have any power or leverage you use it to get more money. If you are don't have any, then you don't, which is why a marginal player foghting for a roster spot would never do this.

 

MJD and/or his agent saw what they perceived to be a good opportunity with little downside to get paid more money and they went with it, and it failed miserably! End og story!

 

It was thought of the same discussion we had last year with the lockout,

 

 

First off I don't know that I'd agree that these negotiations happen in all kinds of industries. But I'd bet when they do, the employee (MJD) doesn't just stop coming to work while he negotiates (demands more money or a trade).

 

The problem with MJD and his agent, is they are not properly recognizing the downside. If he continues to sit out things are not going to work out well. I just don't see a scenario where the Jags cave in and pay him or trade him to somebody that will. They are also not properly recognize the very little leverage that MJD has. He cannot go play elsewhere, or be paid more unless the Jags want to do that.

 

Basically it sounds like your point is "Big deal it happens all the time, not sure why people make a fuss." All while pretty much agreeing with everything detlef, myself and others have said (he hasn't outperformed his contrat and doesn't deserve to be paid more).

 

You say end of story, but it isn't MJD is stil holding out with about 1.5 weeks before the first game. I agree that it has failed miserably because MJD has racked up a bunch of fines for not being in camp. But I still don't get why he hasn't reported, and what he is planning to do going forward. Sit out all year? Quit the NFL entirely? Report at some point and play?

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Basically it sounds like your point is "Big deal it happens all the time, not sure why people make a fuss." All while pretty much agreeing with everything detlef, myself and others have said (he hasn't outperformed his contrat and doesn't deserve to be paid more).

 

 

That IS my point and I don't think my opinion about whether or not MJD deserves more money is relevant for that discussion. I don't even know why I brought it up to begin with, because the whole situation is kind of a non-issue to me. I guess that I just thought it was kind of weird that we have different expectations for NFL players compared to a long line of other businesses.

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That IS my point and I don't think my opinion about whether or not MJD deserves more money is relevant for that discussion. I don't even know why I brought it up to begin with, because the whole situation is kind of a non-issue to me. I guess that I just thought it was kind of weird that we have different expectations for NFL players compared to a long line of other businesses.

 

Are you implying that we're cool with what MJD is doing in general, but not when it comes to NFL players?

 

Similarly, are you saying that this sort of negotiation is common place in a long line of other businesses? And I'm not talking about strikes en masse. I'm talking about individuals refusing to show up for work until their contract is renegotiated.

 

These are not rhetorical questions, btw. I'm just trying to figure out what you're saying here.

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He's making a statement and has a backbone, I don't see how people aren't getting it. This man EARNED his right to be paid. He is extremely loyal, hard-working, humble, and talented and accomplished as any RB in the NFL. The only thing that is holding him back from doing his absolute best is the team that he is on! Yet, he never demands a trade (until now, obviously) and sticks with them, puts his head down, never gets in trouble, and leads the NFL in yardage.

 

PAY THE MAN. He's your franchise.

 

 

I couldn't disagree with you any more than I do.

 

In general I side with the owners on these kinds of issues. Players accept huge signing bonuses up front to off set the possibility that they will be cut prior to playing out their contract. When a player accepts such a signing bonus he agrees to the possibility that he may be cut before the end of his contract. Additionally when you sign a contract you don't get to take a single year's great performance and hold out for money - unless you are willing to let the owners cut your pay when your last year's performance doesn't measure up.

 

MJD was very happy with the lucrative deal he signed several years ago. He was paid top dollar at that time when it was perceived that he still had more years to give to the organization. It is inane to demand more money/years as he comes to the tail end of his high performance years.

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