Breaking News - Saints players have won their appeal

[White lightning]

Not blaming the players' union at all. Merely stating that after this whole debacle, Tags played it pretty smart in saying that the evidence obviously points to guilt, but if we blame the coaches and let the players off with "time served" we can try and save some face and hopefully get the union off our ass. I also wouldn't say that the whole mess was "bungled" by Goodell's office, I'd say that he clearly overstepped the authority he believed he had and got burned. He said from the beginning that there was an illegal bounty program, and an even worse systemic coverup, and both of those things remain absolutely true. He messed up in trying to hand out punishments and making examples of people. His error was on the punishment side, not the investigative side.

 

 

Are you seriously suggesting that Goodell and the NFL rolled over to get the NFLPA of their collective asses? That is patently absurd! This ruling will only add fuel to Vilma's defamation suit against Goodell and spawn more litigation in the future. Not to mention the ruling puts a serious dent in Goodell's credibility and his appearance of absolute power. The NFLPA will be trumpeting this ruling for the next 10 years.

[STL Fan]

Um, the ruling wasn't handed down by Goodell, it was Tags. And yes, Vilma's suit is going to be a nightmare for the NFL, because he was the only person to be exonerated in this thing. Any other litigation by other players against the NFL will have to get around the whole problem of this ruling by Tags re-affirming that they were guilty as charged. And I agree that this ruling puts a dent in Goodell's armor, but not because of the investigation, but because he overstepped his bounds in punishment as I said earlier. Of course the NFLPA will be trumpeting this ruling, that's part of what the ruling was trying to accomplish - let the commissioner save face because his findings of guilt are confirmed, and eliminate the penalties on the players to help appease the NFLPA. Will it silence the NFLPA? Of course not. But their players are back on the field and Goodell's ability to implement punishments has been tarnished. With the exception of Vilma's lawsuit (which I believe will be settled for some big dollars) watch how fast this fades away until the next round of CBA negotiations.

[STL Fan]

If they are both "absolutely" true then they should have no reason to continue to refuse to release the transcripts from the hearings rather than continue to leak information that seemingly only supports their case. It's a damn shame too. I think that fans who invest so much of their time and money in the team do have a right to know why their team was punished so much more severely than other teams that had been punished previously. Making an example of the organization because they want to project an image that they have changed their ways in regards to player health & safety is completely egregious, unfair and deceitful to their constituents.

 

His error was EQUALLY on the punishment side & investigative side and that should be glaringly obvious. If nothing else, publicly handing down such a damning verdict when the only player you've actually interviewed is Anthony Hargrove should be enough proof of that, not to mention lying to the public about the amount and validity of much of their evidence.

 

 

I understand this is personal for you and the Saints fans, and I feel for you. But the reason all this came down like it did is twofold: First, the NFL caught the Saints doing it, and told them to stop. They said they would then blatantly defied the commissioner and continued.

 

Second, the program the Saints were running was not just like the other teams, it was systemic and was not only endorsed by coaches but administered by them. It rose well above the usual "under-the-table" small-scale player-run program.

 

Also, it wasn't JUST to make an example of the Saints or to make the League look pro-active (both partly true, I believe), it was mainly because they blatantly defied the commissioner, who happens to be an ego-maniac.

 

The most important thing to remember is that if the Saints had stopped when first asked, absolutely none of this would have happened. I have no dog in this fight, I'm just a fan of the game trying to be objective.

 

As far as releasing transcripts, Why would their attorneys release hundreds of thousands of pages of documents that they are not required to release to let the other side's lawyers cherry-pick statements and twist language in possible lawsuits? That would be nuts. That stuff will be released only if required by a judge.

[rajncajn]

I understand this is personal for you and the Saints fans, and I feel for you. But the reason all this came down like it did is twofold: First, the NFL caught the Saints doing it, and told them to stop. They said they would then blatantly defied the commissioner and continued.

And I'm not denying that at all, nor am I saying that the Saints should not have been punished. I merely, yet very strongly disagree with the severity of the punishments and the way that the entire situation was handled by the league.

 

Second, the program the Saints were running was not just like the other teams, it was systemic and was not only endorsed by coaches but administered by them. It rose well above the usual "under-the-table" small-scale player-run program.

In Tags ruling he noted the penalties weighed upon two organizations in the past rather than penalizing the players themselves. He used those instances as specific examples that compared with this & even quoted part of the statement made to the Patriots at the time of the infraction:

 

". . . While the Patriots’ players emphatically denied that

rewards were offered for targeting specific players or for taking

them out of the game, this issue underscores the importance of

prohibiting these types of bonuses; if an injury does occur, the

mere existence of a specific bonus for onfield performance against

a particular team invites unnecessary speculation that a player or

players may have been a target for overzealous defenders.

As you have acknowledged, it is the club’s responsibility to

inform its players of the parameters of the rule and monitor their

compliance."

 

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but the fact that Tags used these two as examples tells me that, maybe these systems were not administered by the coaches, but they were certainly known about and accepted. The quote above also tells me that the system had some sort of incentive bonus set in place that would include paying a player for taking another player out of a game.

 

Also, it wasn't JUST to make an example of the Saints or to make the League look pro-active (both partly true, I believe), it was mainly because they blatantly defied the commissioner, who happens to be an ego-maniac.

I have to say that I wholeheartedly disagree. I don't doubt that Goodell's ego played a big part in it, but I do 100% believe that the driving factor behind all of this is due to the concussion litigation.

 

The most important thing to remember is that if the Saints had stopped when first asked, absolutely none of this would have happened. I have no dog in this fight, I'm just a fan of the game trying to be objective.

 

Again, can't disagree with that assessment at all.

 

As far as releasing transcripts, Why would their attorneys release hundreds of thousands of pages of documents that they are not required to release to let the other side's lawyers cherry-pick statements and twist language in possible lawsuits? That would be nuts. That stuff will be released only if required by a judge.

 

Well, you always want what you can't have... I do realize & understand what you're saying. Understand that what I am saying is that I feel we have a right to know because of what we've invested in our team, both financially & emotionally. I'm not sure how to convey the difference... I understand that it does not help them at all, but it still doesn't make it right and that is only compounded by the fact that they continue to leak information that seemingly supports their case. For us fans it only makes the bitter pill even tougher to swallow.

Edited December 14, 2012 by rajncajn

[STL Fan]

 

And I'm not denying that at all, nor am I saying that the Saints should not have been punished. I merely, yet very strongly disagree with the severity of the punishments and the way that the entire situation was handled by the league.

 

 

In Tags ruling he noted the penalties weighed upon two organizations in the past rather than penalizing the players themselves. He used those instances as specific examples that compared with this & even quoted part of the statement made to the Patriots at the time of the infraction:

 

". . . While the Patriots’ players emphatically denied that

rewards were offered for targeting specific players or for taking

them out of the game, this issue underscores the importance of

prohibiting these types of bonuses; if an injury does occur, the

mere existence of a specific bonus for onfield performance against

a particular team invites unnecessary speculation that a player or

players may have been a target for overzealous defenders.

As you have acknowledged, it is the club’s responsibility to

inform its players of the parameters of the rule and monitor their

compliance."

 

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but the fact that Tags used these two as examples tells me that, maybe these systems were not administered by the coaches, but they were certainly known about and accepted. The quote above also tells me that the system had some sort of incentive bonus set in place that would include paying a player for taking another player out of a game.

 

 

I have to say that I wholeheartedly disagree. I don't doubt that Goodell's ego played a big part in it, but I do 100% believe that the driving factor behind all of this is due to the concussion litigation.

 

 

 

Again, can't disagree with that assessment at all.

 

 

Well, you always want what you can't have... I do realize & understand what you're saying. Understand that what I am saying is that I feel we have a right to know because of what we've invested in our team, both financially & emotionally. I'm not sure how to convey the difference... I understand that it does not help them at all, but it still doesn't make it right and that is only compounded by the fact that they continue to leak information that seemingly supports their case. For us fans it only makes the bitter pill even tougher to swallow.

 

 

Rajn, you are always one of the classiest acts in this sometimes classless place. I think we actually agree on quite a few more things than we disagree on, and your positions are always thoughtful and reasonable. I hope all the information comes out as a result of pending or future litigation so the league, the fans, and ESPECIALLY the Saints Fans get answers and closure. I try to imagine what it must be like by comparing the situation to how I would feel if it happened to the St. louis Cardinals. I'm a huge Rams fan and have held season tickets since they moved here in 1995, but I don't yet have the full, emotional connection like I do having grown up with my Birds. If the Cards were slammed the way the Saints have been, I would truly be pissed. I'm not sure I could be so diplomatic. Here's to a Rams/Saints NFC Championship game in the next couple years.