Bronco Billy Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 (edited) Guys! If a team goes for it on 4th down and throws a TD pass, is that a special teams play? This play was the same thing. Kicking rules in the NFL do not go into effect until the ball is kicked. The ball was not kicked. That's an offensive play. /argument Dammit I could have started Mathay in ATAP. Edited September 14, 2012 by Bronco Billy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cunning Runt Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 so are you saying there is never a kick in the nfl? Sure there is, But I go by the unit on the field. For instance, is there ever really a defensive score? Because once the ball is intercepted or the fumble recovered, don't they technically become the offense? And the offense that was on the field, the defense? The NFLs scoring and fantasy scoring should absolutely be two different things. Fantasy scoring should definitely be based upon the unit on the field at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delfamdelfam Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 Makes no sense. Like others said the special teams unit is on the field and the play is practiced by the special teams. Also there is no way the defense should be charged as like above, the special teams unit for the Bears were on the field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennykravitz2004 Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 (edited) This issue came up several years ago when NE's Vinatieri made a TD pass to Troy Brown. Happened at a Rams home game. http://www.nfl.com/v...iots-40-Rams-22 (Right around the 1:05 mark.) It's a TD pass. You awarded no points on special teams, and may God have mercy on your souls. Edited September 14, 2012 by lennykravitz2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 Until the ball is kicked, it's just the offense in an exotic formation. Trying to bring personnel changes into the equation just muddies it up. If they brought in Ray Rice and Ed Reed to run the wildcat, does that make it a defensive play? No. The offense is the offense until they relinquish the ball, either voluntarily or involuntarily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 (edited) Yep, offensive play all the way. Does not matter what unit is on the field. The special teams scoring is limited to kickoff and punt returns, and blocked FG/punt retuns. Special teams does not and should not score a TD for a fake FG/punt. Just add it to your rules if it is confusing to people in your league. Because the NFL and the fantasy scoring is never going to credit this to the special teams (even though that unit is on the field). And what is this talk about it not counting against the points scored on the defene. Are you guys excluding FG, punt/kick return TDs, and defensive scores (int/fumble return, safety, etc.) from points scored against the defense. Is that a setting in your league software or are you doing that manually? (Or do you just think it is/should be that way.) As far as "so the defense can never score since they become the offense when they get the ball" point somebody made, well they become the offense in the sense of following the NFL rules (an offensive player...). If your team starts the play on defense, and scores, that is a defensive score. If they team starts the play on offense and scores, that is an offensive score. Well except for punt returns, or FG/punt block returns, which are special teams scores in fantasy football (not sure how the NFL classifies them). The key being, just because the special teams unit runs the play, doesn't make it a ST score. You could right that into your rules, and make manual scoring adjustments to handle it. But I don't think any league site is going to give you that option. Edited September 14, 2012 by stevegrab Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cunning Runt Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 Trying to bring personnel changes into the equation just muddies it up. And here's where I disagree. The personnel in the game - in this case the Special Teams personnel, does the exact opposite of muddying it up. It brings specific clarity to how it should be scored for FANTASY FOOTBALL purposes. I could care less how the NFL chooses to clasify it. For perspective, I was listening to Sirius NFL Radio on the way to work this morning and they were talking about the game and they said (paraphrasing) "that even the Special Teams chipped in with the fake FG touchdown pass". I bring that up because even seasoned football people, at least the ones on the radio this morning, view it as a Special Teams play despite it being within the framework of an offensive snap. This is one of those "eyeball test" things for me. For instance, Let's say Team A intercepts a pass, once they do, they are technically on offense, and then let's say the WR on Team B strips the ball and recovers the fumble. Technically that's a defensive fumble recovery, but everyone knows it really wasn't. Goes to the "unit on the field" at the time litmus test. Same thing with a fake goal or fake punt to me. That's a Special Teams play and should be scored for fantasy purposes as such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 (edited) Should be response to Grits. I agree with this regardless of how it's scored. If the rules say it has to be kicked to qualify I think the rule should change. Edited September 14, 2012 by Randall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 Then there is never technically a special teams play....only offense or defense. I ain't buyin. It's technically an offensive down (4th) until the ball is kicked. The same goes for a punting play. Kickoffs are the only plays that are strictly special teams from start to finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 As far as "so the defense can never score since they become the offense when they get the ball" point somebody made, well they become the offense in the sense of following the NFL rules (an offensive player...). If your team starts the play on defense, and scores, that is a defensive score. If they team starts the play on offense and scores, that is an offensive score. Well except for punt returns, or FG/punt block returns, which are special teams scores in fantasy football (not sure how the NFL classifies them). I agree with your post in general, but this might be a sticky one. It doesn't happen often, but there is some debate about how to score it when the defense gains control of the ball and then fumbles it back to the other team. Many (including me) would argue that the offense becomes the defense once they turn the ball over. What I think is a better way of explaining it is, the act of running back a fumble, punt, kick-off, or INT for a TD is a singular act and, because it is an act initiated by a player who was on defense at the time of initiation, it is a defensive play. Even if his team became the offensive team the instant he took possession of the ball, he was a defender when the action began. Just like if a QB throws a pick and then the CB fumbles it to a WR who then runs it in for a TD, that should be a defensive score (even if you also give the player a TD as well, which I also agree with and comes up far more often with kick returns for a guy like Sproles, both he and NO ST/D get the love). However, in the case where an offensive player fumbles the ball and it is picked up and run in by someone on his own team, it is not a defensive score because there was never a change of possession. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delfamdelfam Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 http://sports.espn.go.com/fantasy/football/ffl/story?id=8376801 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cunning Runt Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 I agree with your post in general, but this might be a sticky one. It doesn't happen often, but there is some debate about how to score it when the defense gains control of the ball and then fumbles it back to the other team. Many (including me) would argue that the offense becomes the defense once they turn the ball over. What I think is a better way of explaining it is, the act of running back a fumble, punt, kick-off, or INT for a TD is a singular act and, because it is an act initiated by a player who was on defense at the time of initiation, it is a defensive play. Even if his team became the offensive team the instant he took possession of the ball, he was a defender when the action began. Just like if a QB throws a pick and then the CB fumbles it to a WR who then runs it in for a TD, that should be a defensive score (even if you also give the player a TD as well, which I also agree with and comes up far more often with kick returns for a guy like Sproles, both he and NO ST/D get the love). However, in the case where an offensive player fumbles the ball and it is picked up and run in by someone on his own team, it is not a defensive score because there was never a change of possession. Then take the "sticky" out of it and consider the unit on the field as the criteria. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 So if it only matters what unit is on the field for the scoring of a play, what is a quick kick on 3rd down scored as? A really really long fumble that bounced off the foot of the QB? I don't understand some of you guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cunning Runt Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 http://sports.espn.g...tory?id=8376801 They use a hypothetical example involving Aaron Rodgers - in their example, that play should be scored Rodgers TD pass and Packers Special Teams TD - both. Just like when a kick return is returned by a WR for a TD. The player gets the TD as does the Special Teams as a unit. At least that's how I would score it for fantasy purposes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 Then take the "sticky" out of it and consider the unit on the field as the criteria. Because you're trading one, very rare, sticky situation for another one that will come up far more often. After all, there way more times when a team fakes a punt or FG than there are plays with multiple changes of possession. But here's where your "consider the personnel" bit fails. Say the holder is the back-up QB instead of the punter. And, instead of snapping the ball back to him on his knee, they actually shift at the last second into a more standard formation, with the holder standing up and the kicker moving into a RB position. Then the back-up QB throws a pass to a back-up TE for a TD. Does the simple fact that the kicker is on the field make it a special teams play? What about when Danny White was both punter and QB? What if a punt is snapped to the up back who happens to be a RB? Your way is wrought with confusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyBalata Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 It was a FAKE special teams play, so you know, it wasn't real. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cunning Runt Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 So if it only matters what unit is on the field for the scoring of a play, what is a quick kick on 3rd down scored as? A really really long fumble that bounced off the foot of the QB? I don't understand some of you guys. Ditto. Except I don't understand the other point of view. In your scenario, I assume the offense was on the field. Yes? If any points were scored, they would go to the indivdual - just like any other offensive play would be. What's so hard to understand about that? And I don't take issue with your post because I don't like you (putting that aside), but for real, how hard is it to understand the thought process? Pretty fricking cut and dry to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delfamdelfam Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 They use a hypothetical example involving Aaron Rodgers - in their example, that play should be scored Rodgers TD pass and Packers Special Teams TD - both. Just like when a kick return is returned by a WR for a TD. The player gets the TD as does the Special Teams as a unit. At least that's how I would score it for fantasy purposes. WR's or RB's never get credited with returns for TD's, atleast in all the leagues I've played in. It always goes to the D/ST. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 WR's or RB's never get credited with returns for TD's, atleast in all the leagues I've played in. It always goes to the D/ST. They do in nearly every one I've played in and I like that rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cunning Runt Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 Because you're trading one, very rare, sticky situation for another one that will come up far more often. After all, there way more times when a team fakes a punt or FG than there are plays with multiple changes of possession. But here's where your "consider the personnel" bit fails. Say the holder is the back-up QB instead of the punter. And, instead of snapping the ball back to him on his knee, they actually shift at the last second into a more standard formation, with the holder standing up and the kicker moving into a RB position. Then the back-up QB throws a pass to a back-up TE for a TD. Does the simple fact that the kicker is on the field make it a special teams play? What about when Danny White was both punter and QB? What if a punt is snapped to the up back who happens to be a RB? Your way is wrought with confusion. It's a special teams play. Bonus for you if Danny White was your QB as well. No confusion. Very consistent I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cunning Runt Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 WR's or RB's never get credited with returns for TD's, atleast in all the leagues I've played in. It always goes to the D/ST. Really? All my leagues are exactly the opposite - both get points. That's why some people go out of their way to start guys that also return kicks - like a Randall Cobb for instance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 WR's or RB's never get credited with returns for TD's, atleast in all the leagues I've played in. It always goes to the D/ST. They do in most if not all of my leagues ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 It's a special teams play. Bonus for you if Danny White was your QB as well. No confusion. Very consistent I think. OK then, define "special teams" in an iron-clad, there's $1000 on the line in the FF championships manner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyBalata Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 OK then, define "special teams" in an iron-clad, there's $1000 on the line in the FF championships manner. special teams involves a change of possession, no change of possession, no special teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 FG are kicked by the special team unit, do those count as special team scores? If not why, the special team unit was on the field? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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