Scab Refs now throwing hats in the endzone costing TD

[Azazello1313]

Seems like the issue is a little more complex than "more money". As I understand it the owners want to either eliminate the pension plan or curtail it, they want the refs to be full time and they want additional crews. Those all sound reasonable to me. Who the heck has pension plans in this day and age, especially if you are PART TIME. I also understand the desire of the NFL to have FULL TIME refs, guys who are dedicated to the game and its rules both during the season and in the off season. Additional crews = more flexibility.

 

 

wait, what? you're saying it makes sense to simultaneously treat them like PART TIME employees while asking them to be FULL TIME employees?

[stevegrab]

I thought they were not so bad week 1, but weeks 2 and 3 have been bad. embarrassingly so. thing is, I would predict that from here on out they become less and less of an issue each week. I would think the regular refs should take the best deal they can get this week, whatever that deal is. I don't think they will have more leverage than they do right now.

 

 

That seems to be the concensus of most people I've talked to. So either they got worse (seems unlikely) or we were just to happy watching real regular season football games to notice as much in the first week. The overall flow, the poor enforcement of certain rules (illegal contact with its difference from college), inability to keep control, berating by players/coaches.

 

As for the dispute itself, no labor dispute is completely onsided. This is not all on the NFL or the NFLRA. The NFL caving to every demand of the NFLRA is not a solution, and most likely not going to happen. Same goes for the refs, and seems even less likely. Until the NFL starts sufferering financially I'm not sure they will work it out.

 

I think the announcers harping on it is the media's way of trying to get fans to voice their displeasure. And while some fans are upset, I don't think enough are mad enough to quit supporting the NFL at this time. So we're probably stuck with this at least through the middle of the season.

[detlef]

Seems like the issue is a little more complex than "more money". As I understand it the owners want to either eliminate the pension plan or curtail it, they want the refs to be full time and they want additional crews. Those all sound reasonable to me. Who the heck has pension plans in this day and age, especially if you are PART TIME. I also understand the desire of the NFL to have FULL TIME refs, guys who are dedicated to the game and its rules both during the season and in the off season. Additional crews = more flexibility.

 

In full disclosure, I don't know the details of the dispute. Only that the cash breaks down to about $1 million a year total. I realize it's more detailed than that. However, that doesn't change the fact that this is the league's doing and it's not going well.

 

After all, if the shoe was on the other foot. If the refs actually went on strike, and then, instead of being a complete joke, the replacements came in and didn't skip a beat, would there be anyone on the ref's side right now? Nope, we'd be calling them over-paid clowns who should have been happy with what they had.

[Grits and Shins]

wait, what? you're saying it makes sense to simultaneously treat them like PART TIME employees while asking them to be FULL TIME employees?

 

 

Actually not many FULL TIME employees have pension plans any more. It just isn't done. My point is that these days it is unrealistic to expect a pension plan if you are a full time employee and even more so to have that expectation as a part time employee.

 

Having said that ... my understanding of a pension plan is a plan that is fully/solely funded by the employer. That is NOT the same as a 401K plan with or without employer matching.

[detlef]

Actually not many FULL TIME employees have pension plans any more. It just isn't done. My point is that these days it is unrealistic to expect a pension plan if you are a full time employee and even more so to have that expectation as a part time employee.

 

Having said that ... my understanding of a pension plan is a plan that is fully/solely funded by the employer. That is NOT the same as a 401K plan with or without employer matching.

 

Why do people always insist upon comparing the NFL to any other business? It's about as silly a line of argument as you can make.

 

Here's the facts: The NFL is making a boat-load of cash and the only downside is that the massive cash-stream relies on milking a very adoring fan base at every single turn. Charge the networks a fortune to show it, who in turn pass that on to the cable providers who then pass it on to us. Charge us more to spend 3.5 hours at a game than it does to spend the night at a resort including all meals. Charge $100 for gear. You name it.

 

And more power to them, but they'd better not be stupid about it because the natives are getting restless. So, you'd better keep your game up. And what it will cost to honor thier current deal with the refs seems like a pretty damned cheap insurance policy to keep all the money-paying fans happy with the product.

[lkirc]

I don't think the TV ratings have been negatively affected. Until this happens, I think the NFL feels it is winning this battle.

[Easy n Dirty]

I'd be very curious what the incidence is of pass interference penalties versus at this point in the season in years past - it seems like they are calling PI all the time, and often in some very questionable instances. Those are very impactful calls too.

[detlef]

I don't think the TV ratings have been negatively affected. Until this happens, I think the NFL feels it is winning this battle.

 

They'd be wise not to wait until that actually happens. Just like they'd be wise not to wait until they start seeing it at the gate. It's a whole lot easier to keep your customers than win them back.

[LosGatosEnFuegos]

I'd be very curious what the incidence is of pass interference penalties versus at this point in the season in years past - it seems like they are calling PI all the time, and often in some very questionable instances. Those are very impactful calls too.

 

 

From here (through 2 weeks only):

 

Defensive pass interference and illegal contact penalties are up, but only from 48 to 51, surprising because of the hubbub raised on the airwaves about the lack of such calls.

[delusions of grandeur]

I still think it's a conspiracy to make the regular refs look better by comparison.

 

Hell, by the time they get back, we'll probably forget all about how half of them are probably in Vegas' pocket.

[Azazello1313]

They'd be wise not to wait until that actually happens. Just like they'd be wise not to wait until they start seeing it at the gate. It's a whole lot easier to keep your customers than win them back.

 

 

I kind of disagree with this, because I think time is clearly on the owners' side in this standoff. the replacements will get better over time, as they become more acclimated to the NFL rules and environment. this is the chance of a lifetime for these guys, they have an enormous incentive to improve rapidly. chances are, they will. fans will become more acclimated as well.

 

I remember when the baseball umps went on strike 10 or 15 years ago (I think?) thinking they were indispensible to the game and the fans just wouldn't stand for lower quality stand-ins. the umpires got burned so badly. I just hope the same doesn't happen to bill leavy

 

seriously, I feel strongly that if they don't take the best deal they can get in the next week or two, they stand in grave danger of losing everything while the league loses next-to-nothing. they need to realize they get paid really well to do a dream job, and they really aren't all that irreplaceable. they have a wee little bit of leverage right now, and that leverage is going to decrase over time rather than increase.

[Square]

I thought they were not so bad week 1, but weeks 2 and 3 have been bad. embarrassingly so. thing is, I would predict that from here on out they become less and less of an issue each week.

So they have gotten worse each week but you expect them to get better from here out? I'd think the trend is that things will get worse and likely because of the frustration by players and coaches.

[detlef]

I kind of disagree with this, because I think time is clearly on the owners' side in this standoff. the replacements will get better over time, as they become more acclimated to the NFL rules and environment. this is the chance of a lifetime for these guys, they have an enormous incentive to improve rapidly. chances are, they will. fans will become more acclimated as well.

 

I remember when the baseball umps went on strike 10 or 15 years ago (I think?) thinking they were indispensible to the game and the fans just wouldn't stand for lower quality stand-ins. the umpires got burned so badly. I just hope the same doesn't happen to bill leavy

 

seriously, I feel strongly that if they don't take the best deal they can get in the next week or two, they stand in grave danger of losing everything while the league loses next-to-nothing. they need to realize they get paid really well to do a dream job, and they really aren't all that irreplaceable. they have a wee little bit of leverage right now, and that leverage is going to decrase over time rather than increase.

 

If these guys were top-notch college refs, then I'd be more inclined to go with what you're saying. Guys used to reffing SEC games, for instance, have been reffing a ton of NFL-bound guys already so I could see them just needing to get in the groove. But these guys have been reffing future insurance salesmen and the coaches and players aren't making it any easier for them by acting like they're substitute teachers.

 

So, I'm not as optimistic that it's going to get better any time soon. It's like a rookie QB behind a crappy line. Dude has just as much chance to completely melt down and turn into David Carr as he does to harden and get right.

Edited September 24, 2012 by detlef

[Grits and Shins]

Why do people always insist upon comparing the NFL to any other business? It's about as silly a line of argument as you can make.

 

Here's the facts: The NFL is making a boat-load of cash and the only downside is that the massive cash-stream relies on milking a very adoring fan base at every single turn. Charge the networks a fortune to show it, who in turn pass that on to the cable providers who then pass it on to us. Charge us more to spend 3.5 hours at a game than it does to spend the night at a resort including all meals. Charge $100 for gear. You name it.

 

And more power to them, but they'd better not be stupid about it because the natives are getting restless. So, you'd better keep your game up. And what it will cost to honor thier current deal with the refs seems like a pretty damned cheap insurance policy to keep all the money-paying fans happy with the product.

 

 

You mean its not a business? The owners aren't successful businessmen? This is all just a hobby to the owners? The refs aren't employees of the NFL? The owners aren't the employers? Seems like every time free agency comes up I hear both sides spouting that this is a business (and that's why player X is cut or player Y goes to another team for more money).

 

I certainly agree with the bolded part of your statement though. I absolutely refuse to go to NFL games because I will NOT pay the exorbitant prices.

[stevegrab]

When/if this is resolved, how many weeks until the original NFL refs shake the rust off?

 

Not sure if the current group gets better over time, I'd expect that but we've seen little evidence to support it.

 

But I do agree with Az that the NFLRA has very little bargaining power, and that will likely be reduced more over time. Unless there is some massive revolt by fans, or players walk off the field during a game, the NFL is not going to just roll over and give in.