stevegrab Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Suppose Tate is lying on the ground flat on his back. Jennings leaps, snatches the ball out of the air and cradles it into his chest. On his return to earth he rotates so that he falls chest first with his legs in the air. Just as Jennings is about to impact Tate, Tate reaches up and grabs the ball which is still secured to Jennings chest. Jennings never reliquishes control of the ball. Some of you would interpret that as a Tate reception? More importantly what would the refs rule, and what does the NFL rule book tell them to do in that case. If that truley counts as simultaneous possession, then the rules need to be changed. Even in the case of the MNF play, Tate never really caught or possessed the ball, he simply had his hand on it while Jennings was in possession. Take Jennings and his body out of those pictures and tell me that Tate caught or possessed the ball. What I see is Jennings's whole arm around the ball which is clutched to his chest while his other hand is securing his arm... which is securing the ball. What I also see is Tate behind Jennings, who is between him and the ball, with one hand on the ball. How in the world does that constitute a catch by Tate? Maybe it's just because I'm a Saints homer so my judgement is being clouded.. No you're spot on with this. You have been wrong on some others though, and probably unfairly having your views dismissed because of the whole bountygate thing. That is not fair, and I know I've done it on a few occassions. For that I apologize and will try not to do it again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditkaless Wonders Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 One of my takeaways from this play, and from last week's block by Tate, is that Tate is a player that competes right up to the final whistle on plays. I like that in a player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 One of my takeaways from this play, and from last week's block by Tate, is that Tate is a player that competes right up to the final whistle on plays. I like that in a player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delusions of grandeur Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 (edited) Keggerz, this was a response I got on another site, curious to see if this changes your mind (first and last paragraph are the important parts): Has nothing to do with possession, has everything to do with control. The two are not the same. Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3 of the NFL Rule Book defines a catch:A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds: (a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and ( touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and © maintains control of the ball long enough, after (a) and ( have been fulfilled, to enable him to perform any act common to the game (i.e., maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it, advance with it, or avoid or ward off an opponent, etc.). When a player (or players) is going to the ground in the attempt to catch a pass, Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3, Item 1 states: Player Going to the Ground. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete. Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3, Item 5 states: Simultaneous Catch. If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control. If the ball is muffed after simultaneous touching by two such players, all the players of the passing team become eligible to catch the loose ball So I guess that's the question. Was Tate's 1 hand on the ball enough to say that he secured it simultaneously? Not saying it wasn't, but it looks like we may be offbase in the "possession" argument. ETA: though kudos for the great angle that shows Tate's left arm, that makes it look much less like the ball was just on Jenning's chest, with Tate's arm in-between the ball and his chest. Edited September 27, 2012 by delusions of grandeur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Player Going to the Ground. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete. This is the part that i was talking about yesterday. Even if at some point Tate had his hands on the ball, he did not maintain control throughout the process. Had Jennings not controlled the ball either and it ended up on the ground then it should have been ruled an incomplete pass. Either way, Green Bay comes away with the win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delusions of grandeur Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 This is the part that i was talking about yesterday. Even if at some point Tate had his hands on the ball, he did not maintain control throughout the process. Had Jennings not controlled the ball either and it ended up on the ground then it should have been ruled an incomplete pass. Either way, Green Bay comes away with the win. Are you referring to him briefly taking his right arm off the ball? That is the part that I'm having trouble determining. If he maintains control with his other arm, does it matter if he takes one arm off the ball? One more thing to add: I think it's moot that the ball ended up on Jenning's chest, not Tate's. We've all seen catches where the receiver catches the ball on the defenders body or helmet. I don't see any issue with that. I think it really comes down to 1) whether he established control at the same time as Jennings (seems he did before removing his right hand), and 2) whether he maintained control with that left arm throughout the entire process (that part is tougher to determine) However, watch this slow-mo, and I see no indication that Tate's left arm ever left the ball. 1 arm controlling the ball should be good enough, even if the right arm temporarily comes off before they hit the ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Are you referring to him briefly taking his right arm off the ball? That is the part that I'm having trouble determining. If he maintains control with his other arm, does it matter if he takes one arm off the ball? One more thing to add: I think it's moot that the ball ended up on Jenning's chest, not Tate's. We've all seen catches where the receiver catches the ball on the defenders body or helmet. I don't see any issue with that. I think it really comes down to 1) whether he established control at the same time as Jennings (seems he did before removing his right hand), and 2) whether he maintained control with that left arm throughout the entire process (that part is tougher to determine) However, watch this slow-mo, and I see no indication that Tate's left arm ever left the ball. 1 arm controlling the ball should be good enough, even if the right arm temporarily comes off before they hit the ground. That specifically is the defining point for me. Whether Tate accomplished dual possession at some point during the process of the catch or not should be moot. There's no way that he maintained control throughout the entire process. Had Jennings dropped the ball at the end of the play, I doubt we would even be having this discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delusions of grandeur Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 (edited) That specifically is the defining point for me. Whether Tate accomplished dual possession at some point during the process of the catch or not should be moot. There's no way that he maintained control throughout the entire process. Had Jennings dropped the ball at the end of the play, I doubt we would even be having this discussion. If Jennings had let go of the ball, then it would have either been an incompletion or undisputed TD, but I don't think you can say with any certainty which it would have been. As for the simultaneous control, I just found that actually shows Tate's left hand grab the ball a split second before Jennings right hand secures it, pretty much bang-bang, and close enough to be considered simultaneous. The point of contention is still if that left hand maintains control throughout the catch. I do not think you have to have both hands, especially when he does have both hands on it (and the ball cradled in his left arm) by the time he reaches the ground. IMO, he established control and maintained it (unless there is video evidence that shows otherwise). (BTW, regardless, do you guys now see what I said about Tate long ago that he has a knack to time his jump and catch the ball at it's highest point? Jennings lept first, but Tate timed it perfectly). Edited September 27, 2012 by delusions of grandeur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 If Jennings had let go of the ball, then it would have either been an incompletion or undisputed TD, but I don't think you can say with any certainty which it would have been. As for the simultaneous control, I just found that actually shows Tate's left hand grab the ball a split second before Jennings right hand secures it, pretty much bang-bang, and close enough to be considered simultaneous. The point of contention is still if that left hand maintains control throughout the catch. I do not think you have to have both hands, especially when he does have both hands on it (and the ball cradled in his left arm) by the time he reaches the ground. IMO, he established control and maintained it (unless there is video evidence that shows otherwise). That goes back to the point DMD made earlier. Having a hand on the ball while the defender has it in his grasp & control, shouldn't constitute a reception. If what you are saying was the case then any time a defender intercepts the ball then as long as the receiver has a hand on it then it shouldn't be an interception. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbpfan1231 Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 (edited) If Jennings had let go of the ball, then it would have either been an incompletion or undisputed TD, but I don't think you can say with any certainty which it would have been. As for the simultaneous control, I just found that actually shows Tate's left hand grab the ball a split second before Jennings right hand secures it, pretty much bang-bang, and close enough to be considered simultaneous. The point of contention is still if that left hand maintains control throughout the catch. I do not think you have to have both hands, especially when he does have both hands on it (and the ball cradled in his left arm) by the time he reaches the ground. IMO, he established control and maintained it (unless there is video evidence that shows otherwise). (BTW, regardless, do you guys now see what I said about Tate long ago that he has a knack to time his jump and catch the ball at it's highest point? Jennings lept first, but Tate timed it perfectly). I would think that if Tate would have timed it perfectly then HE would have caught it. Edited September 27, 2012 by gbpfan1231 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delusions of grandeur Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 (edited) That goes back to the point DMD made earlier. Having a hand on the ball while the defender has it in his grasp & control, shouldn't constitute a reception. If what you are saying was the case then any time a defender intercepts the ball then as long as the receiver has a hand on it then it shouldn't be an interception. Tate did not just put a hand on the ball after Jennings had control. If anything, Jennings used the ball falling into Tate's hand to establish control himself. Watch both videos again, and show me where he loses control with his left arm. There is no rule against 1-handed catches, nor is there any provision about one having "more" control: Watch again: Possession Edited September 27, 2012 by delusions of grandeur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delusions of grandeur Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 I would think that if Tate would have timed it perfectly then HE would have caught it. You're still going for a ball in a crowd of people. Timing isn't going to stop hands from coming in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kcmast Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 If Jennings had let go of the ball, then it would have either been an incompletion or undisputed TD, but I don't think you can say with any certainty which it would have been. As for the simultaneous control, I just found that actually shows Tate's left hand grab the ball a split second before Jennings right hand secures it, pretty much bang-bang, and close enough to be considered simultaneous. The point of contention is still if that left hand maintains control throughout the catch. I do not think you have to have both hands, especially when he does have both hands on it (and the ball cradled in his left arm) by the time he reaches the ground. IMO, he established control and maintained it (unless there is video evidence that shows otherwise). (BTW, regardless, do you guys now see what I said about Tate long ago that he has a knack to time his jump and catch the ball at it's highest point? Jennings lept first, but Tate timed it perfectly). That video shows his fingertips touching the ball. Wow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delusions of grandeur Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 (edited) That video shows his fingertips touching the ball. Wow. No, it shows the ball falling into his hand, actually before Jenning's secures possession using that catch. Now show me the one that shows the ball leaving that left hand, because the other video I linked above shows no evidence of that. Edited September 27, 2012 by delusions of grandeur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 (edited) Tate did not just put a hand on the ball after Jennings had control. If anything, Jennings used the ball falling into Tate's hand to establish control himself. Watch both videos again, and show me where he loses control with his left arm. There is no rule against 1-handed catches, nor is there any provision about one having "more" control: Watch again: Possession I can watch both of those videos 100 times and whether you believe he had possession or not, neither video shows him maintaining it. In fact, quite to the contrary, it shows Jennings on top of Tate with the ball in hand. Edited September 27, 2012 by rajncajn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delusions of grandeur Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 I can watch both of those videos 100 times and whether you believe he had possession or not, neither video shows him maintaining it. In fact, quite to the contrary, it shows Jennings on top of Tate with the ball in hand. It doesn't show him not maintaining it either, which is the point of contention (as I've said, if anyone can show where Tate's left arm leaves the ball, then I'll concede it was an INT. However, no one has presented evidence of that, and Keg's photo shows that by the time they get to the ground, Tate's left arm is clearly cradling the ball). Actually, here's a frame-by-frame (that the author tries to use to discount the catch because Tate's right arm comes off, but nowhere can you see Tate's left arm leave the ball. It might have, but there is no visual evidence of it, and I have a hard time believing he could end up cradling the ball if he lost possession): http://www.thebiglead.com/index.php/2012/09/25/golden-tate-catch-frame-by-frame-look-and-the-nfl-rule-book/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delusions of grandeur Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 (edited) Ha Keg, they referenced you in this ESPN blog post: http://espn.go.com/b...mnf-controversy ETA: Also references this very clear still: http://seattletimes.com/html/seahawksblog/2019265422_presented_witho.html Edited September 27, 2012 by delusions of grandeur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Ha Keg, they referenced you in this ESPN blog post: http://espn.go.com/b...mnf-controversy ETA: Also references this very clear still: http://seattletimes....nted_witho.html That's pretty cool Keg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 (edited) Ok, that's it, I've officially changed my mind with all the pictures and video evidence. It was a TD. Tate has the ball in his hand(s), and had control with both feed down while Jennings was still in the air, so it isn't even a simulatenous catch.If one player satisfies all elements of making a catch before the other it isn't simultaneous. Also agree that replay was probably not going to overall it either way. No wait, I read some comments on the one story and now I change my mind again Sorry but it is rather confusing, what constitutes control, does it matter that Jennings has what appears to be full control while Tate is barely grasping the ball with one hand? Does it matter that Tate is on the ground first with some amount of control, while Jennings is still in the air? Edited September 27, 2012 by stevegrab Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Ok, that's it, I've officially changed my mind with all the pictures and video evidence. It was a TD. Tate has the ball in his hand(s), and had control with both feed down while Jennings was still in the air, so it isn't even a simulatenous catch.If one player satisfies all elements of making a catch before the other it isn't simultaneous. Also agree that replay was probably not going to overall it either way. No wait, I read some comments on the one story and now I change my mind again Sorry but it is rather confusing, what constitutes control, does it matter that Jennings has what appears to be full control while Tate is barely grasping the ball with one hand? Does it matter that Tate is on the ground first with some amount of control, while Jennings is still in the air? It's a good thing this wasn't a playoff game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delusions of grandeur Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 (edited) Ok, that's it, I've officially changed my mind with all the pictures and video evidence. It was a TD. Tate has the ball in his hand(s), and had control with both feed down while Jennings was still in the air, so it isn't even a simulatenous catch.If one player satisfies all elements of making a catch before the other it isn't simultaneous. Also agree that replay was probably not going to overall it either way. No wait, I read some comments on the one story and now I change my mind again Sorry but it is rather confusing, what constitutes control, does it matter that Jennings has what appears to be full control while Tate is barely grasping the ball with one hand? Does it matter that Tate is on the ground first with some amount of control, while Jennings is still in the air? It says nothing about which player has "more" control or that Tate can't "barely" control it simultaneously. Also if you go back to the slow-mo "control" video I posted above, Jennings certainly had an opportunity to rip the ball up out of Tate's hand, but you don't really see any evidence of that. . It appears that Tate having the ball in has hand might have only aided in Jennings' possession, as the ball goes down simultaneously with both players. If Jennings truly had sole control, then with the way he had two hands on it, he should have easily been able to rip it up and/or away as they fell downward. However, you really don't see any evidence of that. What you see is Tate's hand stay under it as he gains more and more control (or at very least no evidence to dispute that), until he's finally cradling it as his feet hit the ground Edited September 27, 2012 by delusions of grandeur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 It says nothing about which player has "more" control or that Tate can't "barely" control it simultaneously. Also if you go back to the slow-mo "control" video I posted above, Jennings certainly had an opportunity to rip the ball up out of Tate's hand, but you don't really see any evidence of that. Watch again. It appears that Tate having the ball in has hand might have only aided in Jennings' possession, as the ball goes down simultaneously with both players. If Jennings truly had sole control, then with the way he had two hands on it, he should have easily been able to rip it up and/or away as they fell downward. However, you really don't see any evidence of that. What you see is Tate's hand stay under it as he gains more and more control, until he's finally cradling it as his feet hit the ground (or at very least no evidence to dispute that) Wasn't looking for a continued debate, just saying it is really far from cut and dry. When you have take all these stills, blow them up, add little marks like keg did on some (to show the foot, hand, ground, ball, etc,) super slow mo video, frame by frame... On initial view, Jennings grabs the ball with 2 hands. Tate's hand/arm was behind that, and not really visible. Certainly looked like an INT live, and still susprised an on field rev ruled TD (evidently simultaneous possession). Especially since the guy that did probably couldn't see Tate's hand on the ball until AFTER they both came to the ground. (The side judge's view was blocked.) Now all the video has me convinced that could be the right call, but there still a lot of confusion and uncertainty. And honestly its been debated to death, and the regular refs are back to work. Just not worth it (for me) to spend any more time analyzing footage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delusions of grandeur Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Wasn't looking for a continued debate, just saying it is really far from cut and dry. When you have take all these stills, blow them up, add little marks like keg did on some (to show the foot, hand, ground, ball, etc,) super slow mo video, frame by frame... On initial view, Jennings grabs the ball with 2 hands. Tate's hand/arm was behind that, and not really visible. Certainly looked like an INT live, and still susprised an on field rev ruled TD (evidently simultaneous possession). Especially since the guy that did probably couldn't see Tate's hand on the ball until AFTER they both came to the ground. (The side judge's view was blocked.) Now all the video has me convinced that could be the right call, but there still a lot of confusion and uncertainty. And honestly its been debated to death, and the regular refs are back to work. Just not worth it (for me) to spend any more time analyzing footage. Cool, I feel like debating it (even though I'm pretty much done now). You don't have to click on the thread or respond if you don't care to anymore. I thought it was worth noting what the rules say about what you said, and I would also argue that whether the officials were merely guessing is irrelevant to whether it was the right call. But I know you said you don't want to debate this anymore, even though you clearly want to continue to opine about it. Sounds more to me like you just don't want to be second-guessed and now wanna take your ball and go home One thing we can agree on is it's not completely cut and dry, but it is debateable (why I'm here), and no one has presented evidence to the contrary of Tate controlling the ball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Cool, I feel like debating it (even though I'm pretty much done now). You don't have to click on the thread or respond if you don't care to anymore. I thought it was worth noting what the rules say about what you said, and I would also argue that whether the officials were merely guessing is irrelevant to whether it was the right call. But I know you said you don't want to debate this anymore, even though you clearly want to continue to opine about it. Sounds more to me like you just don't want to be second-guessed and now wanna take your ball and go home One thing we can agree on is it's not completely cut and dry, but it is debateable (why I'm here), and no one has presented evidence to the contrary of Tate controlling the ball. I just meant my last post that you responded to was not meant to stir more debate, only to show how confusing the whole thing is to me. I don't care to spend more time reviewing evidence, because it does me no good. I'll still be confused, and uncertain. The problem with guessing in a situation like this is the play was not going to be overturned either way (would you agree?). So no, I'd prefer they don't guess. This is one of the problems created with instant replay, the refs are leaning towards ruling a TD or turnover in cases where it is close. They figure then replay gets involved and will overturn it if they made a mistake. But what if it was to close for replay to overturn? You seem to feel strongly that Tate caught it, and the evidence you've viewed and referenced proves that. Problem is other people look at the same thing and don't agree. To me that's a clear indication that the evidence is not really as clear as you think it is. (Or else they're all wrong.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Indisputable evidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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