That was not a touchdown.

[Grits and Shins]

Totally inane that a rule infraction by the HC would prevent a review on the scoring play which would have clearly reversed the call. Was Schwartz an idiot for throwing the flag (either he didn't know the rules when he should have -or- he knew the rule but let his emotions overwhelm his intelligence, assuming he has any intelligence) - you bet, but that shouldn't negate the review on the scoring play. Disallowing the review is pure punitive in nature with zero regard for getting the call "right".

 

It is hard to say specifically how the game would have played out from that point on had the call been correctly reversed but Houston DID win the game by a TD, hard to ignore that.

[Chargerz]

I keep hearing that instant replay is about "getting it right" ... and I understand that they don't want the coaches throwing the challenge flag for an unofficial time out ... but that was total bullchives ... if you want " to get it right" then that play should have been reviewed and reversed.

 

This.

 

If you want to penalize the coach for throwing an unecssary challenge flag, so be it. But at least review the TD like you do ALL other TD plays. That rule is complete BS and needs to be changed in the off-season.

[giantsfan]

1. The rule is a joke. The play should still be reviewed. I understand what the rule says: when a complete idiot/fool/useless coach like Schwartz throws an illegal challenge they lose their rights to get a review because a team CANNOT BENEFIT from a review after an illegal challenge flag. I get that, but it doesn't mean the rule isn't stupid. If it is no TD then it should be no TD despite a complete idiot/fool coach like Schwartz throwing an illegal challenge flag. They need to change the rule. 15 yard penalty works fine.

 

2. I don't blame the refs. SURE he had like 4 body parts down, and it is pretty hard to miss it, but they are taught if they are unsure don't blow the whistle and end the play, let it play out and re-play can correct it. If they blow the whistle and he wasn't down then re-play CANNOT correct the mistake, so they really could mess up. The issue here is AGAIN the idiot/fool coach Schwartz ruined that situation the refs are taught to allow by throwing an illegal challenge flag.

 

3. I am pretty surprised there is so much focus on the refs/rule in here. This is on Schwartz 1000%. This is not rocket science. DON'T THROW AN ILLEGAL CHALLENGE FLAG. It is not the rules fault Schwartz is an idiot. I think he threw the flag even before Forsett officially crossed the goal line, that is how dumb he is. And I don't want to hear he was emotional. All coaches get emotional in games. It is his JOB to stay under control and KNOW THE RULES. He cost his team the game plain and simple. And sure they still had chances to win. But that play was a huge crusher. One of the dumbest coaching moves in a long time. Combine that with playing for a 47 yard "chip shot" FG in OT, and yet ANOTHER winning day for Schwartz.

 

 

So like I said, change the rule, and I have no issue with that. But let's not hide the fact that Schwartz is a fool. Cut all the other BS out. Forget that the rule is a little harsh. All the NFL is saying is coaches please know the rule and don't throw illegal challenge flags. If you do your team cannot get a review and cannot benefit from a review. So I don't agree with the rule as stated above (seems dumb and way over the top to me that in this case the punishment for a fool like Schwartz is his team has a non TD stay as a TD), but let's not lose sight of the fact that all the NFL asks coaches to do is NOT throw an illegal challenge flag. That should NOT be that difficult, and it isn't since this is the first time we have seen this I think.

Edited November 23, 2012 by giantsfan

[detlef]

What he said

[overworkedirish]

15 yards on a kickoff is pretty pointless...kick if further out of the back of the end zone...

 

So could a team that scores the touchdown throw the challenge flag to prevent a review

 

This is exactly what I said to my roommate!

 

If you challenge an unchallengable play on purpose that is in your favor, can you prevent a review upstairs? While taking a 15 yard penalty I guess?

Edited November 23, 2012 by overworkedirish

[Caveman_Nick]

blah...blah...blah

 

 

Not trying to demean your words with the Blah...just didn't want all that quote.

 

I think you have to look at this under the right prism, and that is that this situation is entirely nonsensical.

 

Very simple to see. Right after the play Gary Kubiak throws a challenge flag, "in the interest of fairness", because he says, "That clearly was not a TD".

 

Oops...sorry, I made a mistake throwing the flag and now the play can't be reviewed. I guess I get a TD for jobbing the rules.

 

This scenario is entirely possible even if it is unlikely, and since I can drive a truck through that loophole then I think we should recognize how stupid this situation is.

[Caveman_Nick]

15 yards on a kickoff is pretty pointless...kick if further out of the back of the end zone...

 

So could a team that scores the touchdown throw the challenge flag to prevent a review

 

 

Exactly my point. Ridiculous.

[giantsfan]

This is exactly what I said to my roommate!

 

If you challenge an unchallengable play on purpose that is in your favor, can you prevent a review upstairs? While taking a 15 yard penalty I guess?

 

The rule says your team CANNOT BENEFIT from a review. So if your team gets a TD that is iffy, and then their coach throws a flag to try and avoid a review to get the questionable TD to stand, the review still happens since that coaches team would NOT benefit, they may lose from the review if the TD is over turned.

Edited November 23, 2012 by giantsfan

[giantsfan]

Not trying to demean your words with the Blah...just didn't want all that quote.

 

I think you have to look at this under the right prism, and that is that this situation is entirely nonsensical.

 

Very simple to see. Right after the play Gary Kubiak throws a challenge flag, "in the interest of fairness", because he says, "That clearly was not a TD".

 

Oops...sorry, I made a mistake throwing the flag and now the play can't be reviewed. I guess I get a TD for jobbing the rules.

 

This scenario is entirely possible even if it is unlikely, and since I can drive a truck through that loophole then I think we should recognize how stupid this situation is.

 

Respectfully you don't understand the rule. Look at my last post to understand what you are missing. Plus it is pretty obvious a coach that gets a TD called in their favor, even if they know it was not a TD, would NOT challenge the TD.

 

I know we like to get cute in here and say what if a coach challenges his own TD, but that would never happen obviously. And even if it did I just explained why it doesn't matter and wouldn't work.

[Caveman_Nick]

Respectfully you don't understand the rule. Look at my last post to understand what you are missing. Plus it is pretty obvious a coach that gets a TD called in their favor, even if they know it was not a TD, would NOT challenge the TD.

 

I know we like to get cute in here and say what if a coach challenges his own TD, but that would never happen obviously. And even if it did I just explained why it doesn't matter and wouldn't work.

 

 

I understand the rule perfectly. I didn't say it was misapplied and I didn't contradict what you said in any way.

 

My point was that the NFL created a very ugly situation here, and we have seen the second worst case scenario of the rule. It's a horrendous application even if it is correct, but that doesn't change that it was done within the scope of the rules. I am just trying to highlight how potentially bad this rule could be.

 

Also, please explain to me why you think a coach wouldn;t throw an illegal challenge flag if it were beneficial to his team? Players commit PI penalties because they are more beneficial than letting the reception be made. Even closer to the situation, teams will often try to quicksnap a ball in order to prevent the other team from getting a challenge off to a bad call.

 

If there is something a coach thinks he can do to win a game then I think you have to assume that at some point the coach will try it.

[detlef]

The rule clearly covers the bit about a coach doing this so a good play for them would not get reviewed. You can't do it. I read it in a story this am

[giantsfan]

I understand the rule perfectly. I didn't say it was misapplied and I didn't contradict what you said in any way.

 

My point was that the NFL created a very ugly situation here, and we have seen the second worst case scenario of the rule. It's a horrendous application even if it is correct, but that doesn't change that it was done within the scope of the rules. I am just trying to highlight how potentially bad this rule could be.

 

Also, please explain to me why you think a coach wouldn;t throw an illegal challenge flag if it were beneficial to his team? Players commit PI penalties because they are more beneficial than letting the reception be made. Even closer to the situation, teams will often try to quicksnap a ball in order to prevent the other team from getting a challenge off to a bad call.

 

If there is something a coach thinks he can do to win a game then I think you have to assume that at some point the coach will try it.

 

1. Again, the rule is simply don't throw an illegal challenge flag. That should not be that difficult to follow. Just because Schwartz is a fool doesn't mean it is the rules fault. I know how it works in here. We get cute. Try and find loop holes. Try and out think things. It is simple. Idiot coaches like Schwartz know the rule and don't throw an illegal challenge flag. NOT THAT DIFFICULT TO FOLLOW. And can't be that difficult since this is the first time we are discussing it.

 

2. I am confused on what you are saying. Explain to me when you think a coach would throw an illegal challenge flag to benefit his team. Give me a situation please. And if your situation is his team scored a TD that was iffy, and he doesn't want it reviewed so he throws an illegal challenge flag, that would not work since it would be reviewed anyway since that coach/team would lose from the challenge NOT BENEFIT. So give me a situation that you see a coach throwing an illegal challenge flag in to benefit his team.

 

Now maybe you can say clock running down late in the game and his teams only shot is to get the ball back down 7 now so he challenges it to keep the TD standing and get the ball back. First off I don't see that happening. And even if a coach says wow we need this TD to stand, so let me throw the illegal challenge flag, get the 15 yard penalty on the kick off, then I get the ball back, his team would still give up the TD and be in a trailing situation. So I get it. We can be really cute and say in this exact situation...but I just think that is really a reach that it plays out where it really benefits the coach who throws the illegal challenge flag.

Edited November 23, 2012 by giantsfan

[giantsfan]

The rule clearly covers the bit about a coach doing this so a good play for them would not get reviewed. You can't do it. I read it in a story this am

 

Exactly. Now I'm sure things could play out like I called out above and a coach throws a challenge flag to get a TD against his team to stand late in the game and get the ball back. That perfect storm could happen, but his team would still be trailing. Would still get the 15 yard penalty. So it isn't like they'd be in this ideal situation. So I think we are reaching to try and explain how the rule is bad, and not simply saying Schwartz is a complete tool and a terrible coach.

[Caveman_Nick]

The rule clearly covers the bit about a coach doing this so a good play for them would not get reviewed. You can't do it. I read it in a story this am

 

 

Please provide this source. Having just reread the rule, I don't see anything clearly covered about this. I don't see it mentioned at all.

 

EDIT: There is a 15 yard penalty applied for throwing an illegal challenge flag, but enforcement is not discussed in that section. It must be a cross reference as to when such a penalty should be enforced.

 

Second Edit: BUT, and why I think this is not clearly covered is that this is a penalty that is committed after the play is over, and those penalties are not always applied in the same manner.

 

Third Edit: Read the Dead Ball Foul rules. Also, is it applied like Unsportsmanlike conduct?

 

Not clear.

Edited November 23, 2012 by Caveman_Nick

[detlef]

Mike Pereira. On my phone so I'm not good at providing links. Saw it on my Fox sports app. He specifically covered this "before any of you think a devious coach..."

[giantsfan]

Please provide this source. Having just reread the rule, I don't see anything clearly covered about this. I don't see it mentioned at all.

 

EDIT: There is a 15 yard penalty applied for throwing an illegal challenge flag, but enforcement is not discussed in that section. It must be a cross reference as to when such a penalty should be enforced.

 

Second Edit: BUT, and why I think this is not clearly covered is that this is a penalty that is committed after the play is over, and those penalties are not always applied in the same manner.

 

So you don't understand the rule then. Read please: A COACH CANNOT BENEFIT FROM AN ILLEGAL CHALLENGE FLAG VIA A REVIEW.

 

So let's play it out Nick.

 

Team A scores a TD. Team A's coach says wow that wasn't a TD and they will overturn it if reviewed. So team A's coach throws a challenge flag to try and avoid a review. CANNOT HAPPEN. AGAIN CANNOT HAPPEN. Even if team A's coach throws a illegal challenge flag the review still happens (and he'd get a 15 yard penalty). The review WOULD NOT BENEFIT HIS TEAM IT WOULD HURT HIS TEAM, SO THE REVIEW STILL HAPPENS.

Edited November 23, 2012 by giantsfan

[giantsfan]

Mike Pereira. On my phone so I'm not good at providing links. Saw it on my Fox sports app. He specifically covered this "before any of you think a devious coach..."

 

This is really not that complicated...LOL.

[Caveman_Nick]

Mike Pereira. On my phone so I'm not good at providing links. Saw it on my Fox sports app. He specifically covered this "before any of you think a devious coach..."

 

 

The rules use the words "cannot initiate a review of any ruling against a team that commits a foul which delays the next snap"

 

So what if the coach of the team scoring the TD did not want the TD. I can think of scenarios when it was true that a coach did not want his team to score. I recall a Philly game where the whole team was screaming at a player to not score, and if he had but could have been considered down by contact then why wouldn't the coach throw a challenge flag in that case?

 

I am not trying to be obtuse here, just trying to show that the rule sucks as written and is not clear IMO.

[Caveman_Nick]

So you don't understand the rule then. Read please: A COACH CANNOT BENEFIT FROM AN ILLEGAL CHALLENGE FLAG VIA A REVIEW.

 

So let's play it out Nick.

 

Team A scores a TD. Team A's coach says wow that wasn't a TD and they will overturn it if reviewed. So team A's coach throws a challenge flag to try and avoid a review. CANNOT HAPPEN. AGAIN CANNOT HAPPEN. Even if team A's coach throws a illegal challenge flag the review still happens (and he'd get a 15 yard penalty). The review WOULD NOT BENEFIT HIS TEAM IT WOULD HURT HIS TEAM, SO THE REVIEW STILL HAPPENS.

 

 

Getting a little edgy?

[giantsfan]

The rules use the words "cannot initiate a review of any ruling against a team that commits a foul which delays the next snap"

 

So what if the coach of the team scoring the TD did not want the TD. I can think of scenarios when it was true that a coach did not want his team to score. I recall a Philly game where the whole team was screaming at a player to not score, and if he had but could have been considered down by contact then why wouldn't the coach throw a challenge flag in that case?

 

I am not trying to be obtuse here, just trying to show that the rule sucks as written and is not clear IMO.

 

So you are saying, what if Kubiak didn't want the TD yesterday, so he throws an illegal challenge flag. It makes no sense. If he didn't want the TD he would simply let them review it and overturn it. Why would he have to throw a flag to get them to overturn it? Normal course of business says the play would get reviewed, and in this case get overturned, so I am not understanding your point here.

[giantsfan]

Getting a little edgy?

 

Not even one drop. I am simply truly trying to understand what your point is.

 

A rule, that we have never even seen before, is a bad rule? I am still trying to understand why. If your opinion is it's a bad rule because having a TD that was not really a TD stand like it did against the Lions yesterday is too harsh a penalty, okay I get it. But that doesn't seem to be your point. You seem to be saying a bunch of coaches may throw an illegal challenge flag to help their teams in the future now that the rule is out there. And that I just don't understand.

Edited November 23, 2012 by giantsfan

[detlef]

Nick, in the case of a coach not wanting his team to score, it wouldn't matter. If the guy's knee was down and it was called a TD they'd assume the TD benefits his team and review it anyway, getting the exact same effect as if he'd just left his flag in his pocket.

 

For the record, I think everyone involved agrees the rule should be looked at. Pereira included. However that's not the rule now and I also don't think there's anyway a coach could abuse it like you're saying

Edited November 23, 2012 by detlef

[giantsfan]

Nick, in the case of a coach not wanting his team to score, it would matter. If the guy's knee was down and it was called a TD they'd assume the TD benefits his team and review it anyway, getting the exact same effect as if he'd just left his flag in his pocket.

 

For the record, I think everyone involved agrees the rule should be looked at. Pereira included. However that's not the rule now and I also don't think there's anyway a coach could abuse it like you're saying

 

Exactly. I don't like the rule because it seems very stupid to me that the penalty for a dumb coach throwing an illegal challenge flag should be to have a clear non TD stand as a TD. That is very dumb punishment. We are going to have this non TD stand because you threw an illegal challenge flag. Dumb.

 

But with that said it is VERY rare that the perfect storm happens like yesterday. And at its truest core all the NFL asks is for a coach to know the rule and not throw a stupid challenge flag like Schwartz did yesterday. So it IN THEORY should never be an issue unless a coach is a fool like Schwartz.

 

So change the rule, but come on coaches just know a very simple rule so the punishment never has to be applied.

 

And I also don't see this abuse coming either like you said.

Edited November 23, 2012 by giantsfan

[stevegrab]

Stupid rule plain and simple that should be changed. Coaches (yes dumb ones like Schwartz and others who get emotional over a big play like that and forget the automatic challenge) will occassionally try to challenge a play that they cannot (because it has automatic challenge) and there should be a penalty for that. But the penalty including no review of the play is idiotic. Especially as more officials lean towards "letting plays go" and requiring the review of the turnover/scoring play to get it right.

 

I don't remember this point when the rules were first changed. My brother mentioned seeing it in another game and we saw some more about it during a pre/post game show (forget what channel or day, we were catching up on NFL games on Saturday after being gone for Thanksgiving).