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Intentional or not?


rajncajn
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Intentional or not  

58 members have voted

  1. 1. Was Ndamukong Suh's kick to Shaub's groin intentional or not?

    • Yes, absolutely and he should have been suspended
      25
    • Probably, but there was enough gray area that a suspension was not warranted
      25
    • No, it did not look intentional to me.
      6
    • Other or Puddy
      2


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http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8684483/roger-goodell-says-ndamukong-suh-intent-very-difficult-judge

 

DETROIT -- NFL commissioner Roger Goodell and league officials looked at Ndamukong Suh's latest infamous act on the field from several angles, trying to understand why the Detroit Lions defensive tackle kicked Houston Texans quarterback Matt Schaub in the groin area.

"Intent is something that is very difficult for us to ever try to make a judgment on," Goodell told reporters before speaking at a Lions charity event Tuesday night.

 

 

Yeah, ok :rolleyes:

 

You make the call...

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I'm actually half-way between options 1 and 2. Given his track record, it's pretty damned hard to give him the benefit of the doubt, but I still think you have to.

 

I'd like to start seeing some players exacting frontier justice on the field on that dude at some point.

 

ETA: OK, actually screw that. Just watched the video again. The first leg swing may be accidental. But once he touches it and know what he's hit, he certainly seems to go back for more.

 

Effing a-hole is a disgrace to the game.

Edited by detlef
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I'm actually half-way between options 1 and 2. Given his track record, it's pretty damned hard to give him the benefit of the doubt, but I still think you have to.

 

I'd like to start seeing some players exacting frontier justice on the field on that dude at some point.

 

ETA: OK, actually screw that. Just watched the video again. The first leg swing may be accidental. But once he touches it and know what he's hit, he certainly seems to go back for more.

 

Effing a-hole is a disgrace to the game.

 

 

I just don't see how that kick could be considered unintentional. It's obviously not a natural movement and he knew Schaub was standing there.

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I think it was possibly intentional but not intentional to kick him in the nads...more to try to keep him from stepping up into the pocket or to obstruct him would be my best guess...the jewels were just in a bad place at a bad time.

 

NOTE: trying to imede his progress by kicking out his leg is still not cool, but a purposeful kick in the nuts it was not.

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I think it was possibly intentional but not intentional to kick him in the nads...more to try to keep him from stepping up into the pocket or to obstruct him would be my best guess...the jewels were just in a bad place at a bad time.

 

NOTE: trying to imede his progress by kicking out his leg is still not cool, but a purposeful kick in the nuts it was not.

 

 

I don't buy that at all. Suh was looking straight at Schaub when he threw the ball, so why would he be trying to obstruct his progress if he knew the ball was already gone? And if he didn't know he'd already thrown the ball then why was he not still going after him?

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I don't buy that at all. Suh was looking straight at Schaub when he threw the ball, so why would he be trying to obstruct his progress if he knew the ball was already gone? And if he didn't know he'd already thrown the ball then why was he not still going after him?

 

OK, just looked at it again, missed that he could tell the ball had been thrown...still think the kick was intentional to some degree, but don't think he was jewel hunting.
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OK, just looked at it again, missed that he could tell the ball had been thrown...still think the kick was intentional to some degree, but don't think he was jewel hunting.

 

Also notice how he turns his head slightly to the left as he's falling and then looks straight down right after he kicks. I think he may have actually been able to see where he was kicking as well, but that's not something that could be definitively proven.
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How can you justify fining a person if you cannot prove intent? :shrug:

 

Lions' Suh fined $30K, maintains kick was accidental

 


  •  

 

Asked whether he wanted to apologize to Schaub anyway, Suh said, "I mean, I was dragged to the ground. A lot of things happened to me. It’s a part of the game."
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I think it was possibly intentional but not intentional to kick him in the nads...more to try to keep him from stepping up into the pocket or to obstruct him would be my best guess...the jewels were just in a bad place at a bad time.

 

NOTE: trying to imede his progress by kicking out his leg is still not cool, but a purposeful kick in the nuts it was not.

 

 

And how often do we see players that are going down or on the ground use their legs to do something (tackle the runner, etc.). You rarely if ever hear them being accused of intentionally trying to hurt somebody. Let alone people saying they should be suspended for intentionally trying to kick another player.

 

The over analysis that some are making "look you can see how he turns his head" is rather humorous. Maybe his head just rolled that way as he fell.

 

They guy is no saint, but I think this is a which hunt based solely on his past actions and not on the play itself. Any other player does this and there is no mention, let alone the amount of focus it has been getting.

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:rofl:

 

How about not talking out of your ass for a change and point to one example where I did not advocate suspension for dirty play?

 

This is not a court of law. This is a private enterprise. Why would you think proof of intent is required in order to fine Suh?

 

Why fine him if they've already said they couldn't judge intent? Do you think that's ok to fine a player regardless of whether you though they did something wrong or not? "Excuse me Mr. Billy, I don't think you intended to sexually harass that secretary, but we're going to give you a cut in pay anyway." Yeah, ok. :tup:

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And how often do we see players that are going down or on the ground use their legs to do something (tackle the runner, etc.). You rarely if ever hear them being accused of intentionally trying to hurt somebody. Let alone people saying they should be suspended for intentionally trying to kick another player.

 

The over analysis that some are making "look you can see how he turns his head" is rather humorous. Maybe his head just rolled that way as he fell.

 

They guy is no saint, but I think this is a which hunt based solely on his past actions and not on the play itself. Any other player does this and there is no mention, let alone the amount of focus it has been getting.

 

I specifically gave him the benefit of the doubt on the initial "kick" even though it seemed like he was being pretty reckless with it. But then, after he hits Schaub with his foot, he rather clearly seems to give him another kick. I'm not over analyzing it, I'm looking with my eyes and seeing a guy kick some dude in the balls.
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GFY :tup:

 

Yeah, I had a feeling you wouldn't see the humor in that.

 

I specifically gave him the benefit of the doubt on the initial "kick" even though it seemed like he was being pretty reckless with it. But then, after he hits Schaub with his foot, he rather clearly seems to give him another kick. I'm not over analyzing it, I'm looking with my eyes and seeing a guy kick some dude in the balls.

 

 

First I'm not seeing this second kick people are talking about (looking at the GIF that was posted). Second, I recall an incident earlier this year where one player kicked another in the nuts accidentally. Nothing was said, I think it was shown on the Come On Man segment of MNF pre-game. Nobody tried to determine if it was intentional, created threads to discuss, special video clips and such. But since this was Suh, and he's got a reputation for being dirty people automatically assume the worst, thinking that he must have been trying to kick the guy intentionally and even looked that way to make sure he'd hit him in the nuts.

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How can you justify fining a person if you cannot prove intent? :shrug:

 

Lions' Suh fined $30K, maintains kick was accidental

 

There have been plenty of bang/bang plays that have been fined without determining intent. How can you? Unless you have evidence they're running a "pay for performance" program :whistle:

 

Nevermind, I'm not going to even bother with another one of your Goodell witchhunts. The NFL has to take a tough stance towards player safety, particularly when it's not your first offense and you've been warned... As I've said many times, the Saints got nailed to the wall for not taking heed to the NFL's warnings to cut it out. It's clear the NFL wanted to sweep it under the rug when they warned them the first time.

 

Insubordination and a pattern of repeat offenses will not get you the benefit of the doubt on "intent", nor is intent necessary for a blatant illegal hit. Sometimes it's as simple as, you should have taken precaution not to deliver that violent hit (or in this case kick) when you should have done otherwise. Intent is not needed for illegality, not even necessarily in the actual legal system.

Edited by delusions of grandeur
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Yeah, I had a feeling you wouldn't see the humor in that.

 

 

 

First I'm not seeing this second kick people are talking about (looking at the GIF that was posted). Second, I recall an incident earlier this year where one player kicked another in the nuts accidentally. Nothing was said, I think it was shown on the Come On Man segment of MNF pre-game. Nobody tried to determine if it was intentional, created threads to discuss, special video clips and such. But since this was Suh, and he's got a reputation for being dirty people automatically assume the worst, thinking that he must have been trying to kick the guy intentionally and even looked that way to make sure he'd hit him in the nuts.

 

It's the part where, after his foot hits Schaub in the balls, he bends his knee and then thrusts his cleats back into Schaub's junk.

 

ETA, in fact, Schaub barely reacts to the first kick. It's not until the second one where he doubles over.

 

But seriously, who the hell kicks a dude in the junk? Some woman being attacked? Sure, have at it. But a grown man? That's some pussily-assed chight right there.

Edited by detlef
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There have been plenty of bang/bang plays that have been fined without determining intent. How can you? Unless you have evidence they're running a "pay for performance" program :whistle:

 

Nevermind, I'm not going to even bother with another one of your Goodell witchhunts. The NFL has to take a tough stance towards player safety, particularly when it's not your first offense and you've been warned... As I've said many times, the Saints got nailed to the wall for not taking heed to the NFL's warnings to cut it out. It's clear the NFL wanted to sweep it under the rug when they warned them the first time.

 

Insubordination and a pattern of repeat offenses will not get you the benefit of the doubt on "intent", nor is intent necessary for a blatant illegal hit. Sometimes it's as simple as, you should have taken precaution not to deliver that violent hit (or in this case kick) when you should have done otherwise. Intent is not needed for illegality, not even necessarily in the actual legal system.

 

And then there's this. Which is something we've covered with Suh before. If you try to walk the line of what you can get away with all the time and keep trying to play "it was an accident" every time, that's going to wear out.

 

It's like I tell my staff, stay far enough on the side of what is appropriate and you won't have to worry about crossing the line.

 

Yes, football is a violent sport, but there seem to be no shortage of very physical and imposing players who aren't constantly in the line of fire like Suh is and dude absolutely brought it on himself. In fact, every player who complains about having a bullseye on their back (like Harrison, for instance) absolutely brought that on themselves by pushing the limits over and over again.

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