I'm going to post this and just let it ride

[HowboutthemCowboys]

This is key. Notice that their proclamations of innocence only seemed to come once they saw that the NFL might not have the strongest case against them.

 

More power to them to make Goodell prove it, but lawyering does not equate to innocence.

 

 

good point.

 

and the bolded is obviously wrong...if they came out after the fact and said they did'nt do it, they obviously didnt do it...DUH

[Bring Back Pat!!!]

BBP, It's pretty common knowledge that Payton denied that they had a bounty program to the league office. The fact that I cannot immediately find a direct quote from him is irrelevant unless you want to say that the league office was lying about that when it was reported. You said that none of them ever appealed or even once said they were innocent. I gave you a quote from Vitt which was taken after his suspension was lifted denying what the league was accusing them of and posted info regarding the fact that they all appealed their suspension and that they all denied having bounties on players. You can have whatever opinion you want regarding what the Saints did or didn't do, I'm not going to argue with your opinions either way, as I stated here in the beginning. However, the information you posted originally was factually incorrect and, as I said before, I don't think that people should form their opinions based on incorrect information. I don't mean any offense by pointing that out and my intentions were never to get into a debate on our opinions of why he has kept relatively quiet during his suspension. I just wanted to set the record straight in that regard, nothing more.

 

 

Where are the quotes from BEFORE the suspension was lifted? Where are the public denials BEFORE they found out the leagues evidence wasn't quite what they thought it was? The league told the Saints they had proof and they believed them. They thought they were caught.

 

As Dave Kujan said in The Usual Suspects:

 

"First day on the job, you know what I learned? How to spot a murderer. Let's say you arrest three guys for the same killing. You put them all in jail overnight. The next morning, whoever's sleeping is your man. You see, if you're guilty, you know you're caught, you get some rest, you let your guard down."

 

Payton let his guard down and didn't fight it because he knew he was caught. He appealed because he was trying to get the suspension lessened, not eliminated. He thought 1 year was too harsh (and I agree, btw). The only quote I have found from BEFORE the suspension was lifted was the one I linked to earlier which he stated "Both of us have made it clear within our organization that this will never happen AGAIN." That word, by definition, means it at least happened once.

[rajncajn]

Where are the quotes from BEFORE the suspension was lifted? Where are the public denials BEFORE they found out the leagues evidence wasn't quite what they thought it was? The league told the Saints they had proof and they believed them. They thought they were caught.

 

Why do you need quotes directly from Payton when the league says that's what he did? Until the league releases the transcripts of the investigation, which they won't without a court order, then you're probably never going to see those quotes. Below is a direct quote from the league's official statement saying that he denied the existence of a bounty program. This was at the time that the penalty was handed down & after the appeal. Coach Vitt continued to deny the bounties after the suspension was lifted and argued that it was a matter of semantics, not intent. They both admitted to an illegal pay-for-performance program. They both conceded that it included wording that might encourage a player to try to injure another player, even though the wording also included fines for an illegal hit, but both have denied that this was a bounty program that targeted players, Vitt publicly & Payton to the league. I think it stands to reason that their stance hasn't changed in this. I don't think my opinion is so far-fetched either. The only people that have actually said that there were ever any bounties are Brad Childress, who was subsequently called a liar by the guy who he said told him that, Mike Cerullo, who provided nearly all of the leagues evidence by most accounts and Gregg Williams. But it's still not clear exactly what Williams told them or when because the league won't release the transcripts and his declaration, which contradicted Cerullo's account, didn't come out until after the players suspensions were handed down.

 

Anyway, here's the quote and link:

 

http://www.cbssports...her-player

Joe Vitt will be the http://www.cbssports...-saints"]Saints' http://www.cbssports...season"]interim coach in 2012, replacing head coach Sean Payton, who was suspended for the year for his part in the bounty scandal. But Vitt won't take over that role until Week 8, after he serves his own six-game suspension.In a Tuesday news conference, Vitt denied the NFL's claim that New Orleans defensive players tried to intentionally hurt opponents."At no time did any of our players ever cross the white line to intentionally hurt another player," he said (via http://profootballta...r-players/"]PFT).

Edited January 15, 2013 by rajncajn

[rajncajn]

Here's one from Payton during his suspension:

http://articles.chic...ape-sean-payton

--- On why he's stayed quiet regarding the bounty allegations and penalties and whether that has been difficult:

"Listen, it's hard to do. And we're in a much different position than the players, in regards to players having a union. I think ultimately our goal is to get reinstated at the right time. Yeah, it's frustrating at times to sit back and hear a lot of things that have been painted in a certain way that you know aren't true. But that being said, I support every one of those guys and pay close attention to what's going on with Jon (Vilma) and the rest of those players and Mickey (Loomis) and Joe (Vitt) and everyone."

 

--- On what he feels he did wrong:

"When you're the head coach, you've got to pay attention to all areas of your football team. I'm going to leave it just at that. . . . There's a lot that went into this, and I think fortunately there's a lot more that's come out after the fact and I think will continue to surface."

 

--- On what the NFL got wrong in its allegations or penalties:

"I'd rather not get into it specifically, because we could elaborate for an hour. I think it's better to just leave it at that. There's a lot at stake still for guys like Jon Vilma. They're working hard to get the correct ruling. ... But I think the timing (when the allegations first surfaced in March) and all of a sudden the chain of events and when they happened and when we first were in New York (visiting with league officials), I think that caught myself and all of us off guard for how quickly that all happened."

 

Edited January 15, 2013 by rajncajn

[Bring Back Pat!!!]

So you believe he thinks he's truly innocent, the league is accusing him of doing something he didn't do, they suspend him without pay for an entire year costing him $8 million, and he decides, "oh well, I don't have a union to back me so I can't fight it, I'll just sit home with my mouth shut and take it." Really? That seems logical to you? If that's the case, we have nothing more to talk about.

 

Gregg Williams talking to his players before 49ers playoff game...

 

"We hit @^$%$# Smith right there (points to his chin). Remember me, I've got the first one, I've got the first one (rubs fingers together indicating money).... Every single one of you, before you get off the pile, affect the head....Continue, touch and hit the head.....(talking about Crabtree) He becomes human when we #%^#$%^ take out that outside ACL..."

 

But yeah, they weren't trying to ever injure players, and they never paid them for those hits. Keep telling yourself that. Just because the evidence wasn't 100% there (not sure what that would be, a piece of paper labeled "New Orleans Saints Bounty Program Payouts"?) doesn't mean they are innocent, just means they got away with it. So did OJ.

[rajncajn]

So you believe he thinks he's truly innocent, the league is accusing him of doing something he didn't do, they suspend him without pay for an entire year costing him $8 million, and he decides, "oh well, I don't have a union to back me so I can't fight it, I'll just sit home with my mouth shut and take it." Really? That seems logical to you? If that's the case, we have nothing more to talk about.

 

Gregg Williams talking to his players before 49ers playoff game...

 

"We hit @^$%$# Smith right there (points to his chin). Remember me, I've got the first one, I've got the first one (rubs fingers together indicating money).... Every single one of you, before you get off the pile, affect the head....Continue, touch and hit the head.....(talking about Crabtree) He becomes human when we #%^#$%^ take out that outside ACL..."

 

But yeah, they weren't trying to ever injure players, and they never paid them for those hits. Keep telling yourself that. Just because the evidence wasn't 100% there (not sure what that would be, a piece of paper labeled "New Orleans Saints Bounty Program Payouts"?) doesn't mean they are innocent, just means they got away with it. So did OJ.

 

 

As I said before, I'm not going to debate your opinion or mine. If that's the way you feel, then nothing I say is going to sway you one way or the other. And I never said that he thought he was completely innocent, in fact, just the opposite for both he & Vitt.

 

They both admitted to an illegal pay-for-performance program. They both conceded that it included wording that might encourage a player to try to injure another player, even though the wording also included fines for an illegal hit, but both have denied that this was a bounty program that targeted players, Vitt publicly & Payton to the league.

 

You posted:

 

F- If Payton and Williams did nothing wrong, why did they accept their punishment and not appeal or even once say they are innocent?

 

 

My intent here was to point out the bolded information in that post was inaccurate. If you still think that is an accurate statement after everything that I've posted showing otherwise then I've got nothing left to say.

Edited January 15, 2013 by rajncajn

[stevegrab]

Why do you need quotes directly from Payton when the league says that's what he did? Until the league releases the transcripts of the investigation, which they won't without a court order, then you're probably never going to see those quotes. Below is a direct quote from the league's official statement saying that he denied the existence of a bounty program. This was at the time that the penalty was handed down & after the appeal. Coach Vitt continued to deny the bounties after the suspension was lifted and argued that it was a matter of semantics, not intent. They both admitted to an illegal pay-for-performance program. They both conceded that it included wording that might encourage a player to try to injure another player, even though the wording also included fines for an illegal hit, but both have denied that this was a bounty program that targeted players, Vitt publicly & Payton to the league. I think it stands to reason that their stance hasn't changed in this. I don't think my opinion is so far-fetched either. The only people that have actually said that there were ever any bounties are Brad Childress, who was subsequently called a liar by the guy who he said told him that, Mike Cerullo, who provided nearly all of the leagues evidence by most accounts and Gregg Williams. But it's still not clear exactly what Williams told them or when because the league won't release the transcripts and his declaration, which contradicted Cerullo's account, didn't come out until after the players suspensions were handed down.

 

 

I see we're back to splitting hairs and playing games with semantics.

 

They both admit they were breaking the rules, they both admit that what they were doing could be considered as incentive to injure other players, but they stand by their innonence and claim they never were involved in a bounty program.

 

They broke rules of the NFL, were told to stop, said they would and got caught again and were punished for it. I guess the whole thing is the Saints and their fans are offended with being associated with the term bounty and the bad image that goes with paying players an incentive to injure others.

 

Doesn't sound like innocence to me, sounds like people trying to weasel out of something. Were there actual bounties offered and paid, we may never know. But we do know they are not innocent.

[rajncajn]

I see we're back to splitting hairs and playing games with semantics.

 

They both admit they were breaking the rules, they both admit that what they were doing could be considered as incentive to injure other players, but they stand by their innonence and claim they never were involved in a bounty program.

 

They broke rules of the NFL, were told to stop, said they would and got caught again and were punished for it. I guess the whole thing is the Saints and their fans are offended with being associated with the term bounty and the bad image that goes with paying players an incentive to injure others.

 

Doesn't sound like innocence to me, sounds like people trying to weasel out of something. Were there actual bounties offered and paid, we may never know. But we do know they are not innocent.

 

 

Are you guilty of negligence or are you guilty of murder & which one are you being punished for? That's what Saints fans have a problem with. The question of guilt has never been an issue.