Papajohn Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Without Bill Belichick, Tom Brady would never be Tom Brady. Matt Cassel is a prime example of the system, not the QB. More coaches should probably copy this system then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menudo Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 As a long timer, you might recall that I have been on the other side of this argument on these boards, previous to this point in time. Use the search function if you can not recall. I stated as much in my first sentence. My mind is changed, and IMO that history makes your criticism of my position a bit disingenuous. And BTW, the Colts clearly, deeply tanked last season to get luck. They did everything they could to not win a game and fully planned on cleaning house completely after the season, which they did. It was a lame duck team to the core. Everyone knows it, and it makes the comparison of the two situations utterly ridiculous. Belichick would never, ever wave the white flag like that. It would completely undermine his message that nobody is more important than the team and that they can succeed if the players available to play just do their job. You know this as well, which makes me think you are I was definitely a bit. However, it is convenient for you to assume that the Colts were losing on purpose. Sorry, I don't buy that at all. Perhaps at the end, they gave up a bit, but, to insinuate that they went into the season planning to lose enough to get Luck.....sorry, I don't buy it. I think the Colts were simply a below average football team being led to great records by the best QB to play the game in the last 30 years. I think Brady has had much more playoff success than Manning because he has played on teams with much more talent and much better coaching. Honestly though, arguing between the two is pretty silly. They are both phenomenal and among the best QB's to ever play the game. I can certainly see where someone would believe that Brady is better. I just happen to still believe that Peyton is better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bier Meister Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 (edited) I was definitely a bit. However, it is convenient for you to assume that the Colts were losing on purpose. Sorry, I don't buy that at all. Perhaps at the end, they gave up a bit, but, to insinuate that they went into the season planning to lose enough to get Luck.....sorry, I don't buy it. I think the Colts were simply a below average football team being led to great records by the best QB to play the game in the last 30 years. I think Brady has had much more playoff success than Manning because he has played on teams with much more talent and much better coaching. Honestly though, arguing between the two is pretty silly. They are both phenomenal and among the best QB's to ever play the game. I can certainly see where someone would believe that Brady is better. I just happen to still believe that Peyton is better. i mostly agree with you riki, but need to clarify the bolded. imo manning had a much better offensive staff around him than nep, but nep had excellent st and defense....and early on, very strong running games with antowain smith and corey dillon. if fact since brady has had to carry more of the load he has only won one sb with more on his shoulders. edit: and manning didn't win the sb until his defense stepped up in the playoffs. Edited January 16, 2013 by Bier Meister Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Compare that to what Manning has done and tell me he is in the same class. Ahh I see it now (and suspected as much) he isn't Tom Brady. From your linked article "If Brady's Patriots had lost in the first round every year, he'd still be an all-time great." But apparently Manning is a failure for his one and dones. Or at least several rungs down the ladder behind Brady. They're both great, but have different groups around them. One has a great HOF coach, who started off as a defensive genius and now is also an offensive genius. Plus a great defense. The other had some average to good coaches, mostly bad defenses and better offensive skill position players (Harrison & Wayne hands down over most NE WR during Brady's time). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveman_Nick Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 (edited) But apparently Manning is a failure for his one and dones. Or at least several rungs down the ladder behind Brady. I am not saying he is a failure, or that he isn't an all time great. I am agreeing that his lack of success in the playoffs and the 8 one and dones tarnish his accomplishments. I think Jim Kelly and Dan Marino are all time greats, even having every reason to hate them as a Pats Fan. I also think that the lack of a SB championship tarnishes their standing amongst the all time greats, because with that success they would be better regarded. EDIT: And let's not kid ourselves...Tony Dungy was a darn good coach, and Manning had the same OC in Tom Moore for his first 12 years while Brady has switched OCs like players change socks. Tony Dungy might not be quite as good of a coach as Belichick, but if not he's still someone that will get HOF consideration. Edited January 16, 2013 by Caveman_Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 And BTW, the Colts clearly, deeply tanked last season to get luck. They did everything they could to not win a game and fully planned on cleaning house completely after the season, which they did. It was a lame duck team to the core. Everyone knows it, and it makes the comparison of the two situations utterly ridiculous. Belichick would never, ever wave the white flag like that. It would completely undermine his message that nobody is more important than the team and that they can succeed if the players available to play just do their job. You know this as well, which makes me think you are Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Perhaps at the end, they gave up a bit, but, to insinuate that they went into the season planning to lose enough to get Luck.....sorry, I don't buy it. They won two of their last three games and came within minutes of winning the finale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menudo Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 They won two of their last three games and came within minutes of winning the finale. Sorry, didn't remember that. If they had won the last game, would they have still gotten the 1st pick ? Just curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Sorry, didn't remember that. If they had won the last game, would they have still gotten the 1st pick ? Just curious. Nope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delusions of grandeur Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 (edited) Manning may be 9-11 in playoffs, but how many of those playoff runs started with a first round bye because of him? If you have him play in those weaker wildcard games, his 9-11 easily could be switched to a more meaningful win loss record. I think it is horribly unfair to use this stat line against him. I agree, as a Falcon fan I've been wondering the last few weeks how much of an advantage outside of homefield and health-wise a bye really is, when you just skip past a potentially easier warmup team and have your first matchup be a team coming in hot off a playoff win, with the whole thing discounting your accomplishment of earning a bye to "one-and-done" if you lose. For these reason, I don't think it's unfair to perhaps consider a bye as essentially a playoff win, or rather being given the privilege by being one of the best in the league to not even have to play what should be an easier game otherwise vs the lowest seed. Further, I think people really discount the fact that this is a single elimination against the top 12 teams in the NFL.. It's like March Madness, but with no cupcake schedules. Most playoff teams are there for a reason, and someone has to lose. That said, just like I couldn't excuse Ryan's past poor play in the playoffs, there are some big mistakes from Peyton in big games that get tougher and tougher to excuse. Edited January 17, 2013 by delusions of grandeur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazinib1 Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 You can break out all the stats you like. You can debate it until you turn blue. But to me, as a fan of the game, Peyton will be a top 3 ALL TIME QB period. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czarina Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Help, help, I have this damned hook stuck in my mouth again! Ouch! IMO, when the Colts beat the Pats for the conference championship, it wasn't BECAUSE of Manning. 57% completion rate, 1 td passed and 1 INT. He did run in a goalline TD as well. Indy had defensive TD in that game, too. He's a great QB, no argument. There's just that je ne sais quois that's missing, though for me to call him the best ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 (edited) IMO, when the Colts beat the Pats for the conference championship, it wasn't BECAUSE of Manning. 57% completion rate, 1 td passed and 1 INT. He did run in a goalline TD as well. Indy had defensive TD in that game, too. I disagree there. Manning brought them back from down 21-3. And the Patriots had the defensive TD, not the Colts. Edited January 17, 2013 by CaptainHook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackass Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Says the guy who happens to root for the team with the "other" all-time great that he will always be compared to. When Manning was out, the same team that he was consistently taking to 11-14 wins could barely win a game. When Brady was out, Matt Cassel, who has proven to be below average, did very well steering the ship. Brady is one of the greatest QB's of all-time, but, he has easily played on more talented teams and for a more talented coach. I still believe that Manning is the greatest QB that I've ever seen. Cassell had a few decent seasons. Curtis Painter shouldn't even have been a backup. Manning's the best regular season Qb maybe. You gotta raise your game in the playoffs consistently to be the greatest. He never did that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trojanmojo Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Manning is top 10 qb, maybe top 5 but I'd put Montana, Brady and Elway ahead of him. Unitas should be up there too. Marino is top 10... I think all things being equal, Super Bowl wins matter. Montana is king there. Brady has a few and Elway has 2 super bowl wins and 2-3 more appearances. Peyton lags here being 1 for 2 in Super Bowls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelsosi Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 Just making it to a Super Bowl multiple times is a remarkable feat. Less than 20 QBs have ever done it (I think the number is 18 or 19 as I recall). The fact that Brady (and Elway) made it 5 times (I expect this will become 6 on Sunday) is unreal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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