Starter keeper rules

[Company of Heroes]

I am transitioning my local league to a keeper this year. Not all of these guys are super serious fantasy players, so my goal was to introduce some basic keeper rules and yet not make the keeper aspect to huge for those used to a more casual league. The last thing I want to do is drive people out because of a bad draft. I've never been in a keeper league, and my biggest question was regarding how to deal with trades (in-season or offseason). I think it is probably cleanest, given the more casual nature of the league, to make traded players ineligible for keeping. I want keeper management to be simple. I'd appreciate any thoughts on the basic rules I've outlined below.

 

1) You can keep up to 3 keepers. Could bump down to 2, but 3 seems reasonable.

2) You can only have one keeper per position (QB,RB,WR, etc.)

3) You can only keep a player for 2 times. Player drafted in 2013 can be kept in 2014 and 2015.

4) Keepers cost a draft pick two rounds earlier than they cost the previous year. Player drafted in 2013 7th rd costs a 2014 5th rounder, and 3rd rounder in 2015 if kept again.

5) Changes to keeper rules must be made two weeks prior to draft based on majority rules.

6) Keepers will be declared one week prior to the 2014 draft. This allows everyone to know which players are available prior to the draft.

7) Players acquired thru free agency during the season are NOT eligible to be kept.

8) Traded players are not eligible to be kept.

 

Thanks in advance!

Edited August 8, 2013 by Company of Heroes

[Big Country]

Your league, so you can pretty much do what you want, so long as your owners go along with it.

 

If you truly want it to be simple, then you would eliminate the stuff about forfeiting a pick, about FAs and traded players being ineligible to be kept, the positional limit on who you keep and the number of times a player can be kept. All of those things add an extra layer of complexity, not simplicity.

 

As to my preferences/input for a new keeper with owners new to the keeper concept:

 

1. Start small. I would recommend only having 2 keepers this year, then 3 the following year. Can always choose to expand from there if the idea is well liked.

 

2. I personally despise the limited keepers per position. More a fan of letting owners manage their teams as they see fit. What if a guy has two super stud WRs but no keeper worthy RB? He either has to toss one of his best players back into the draft pool and keep a lesser player, thus putting him behind the other owners before the drat even begins, or he may have to make a relatively poor trade for a keepable RB (unless there is a team with two stud RBs and no keepable WR that also does not have an early draft pick). Again, personal preference, but I've seen this kind of rule do more harm to the balance of teams than the good it is intended.

 

3. No problem with this as the intent is to keep top players rotating into the draft pool. However, with your rule #4, I think it is kind of not needed. Rule #4 will force the top picks back into the draft pool, but also rewards owners that find values later in the draft by allowing them to keep them longer. So, for me, I would prefer eliminating #3, but not a major issue.

 

4. Not a bad rule, adds strategy to the keeper process, however, realize it adds a layer of complexity and you mentioned wanting to keep it simple. If you keep rule #3, you could eliminate this piece entirely, and either just have teams keep players before the draft with no picks forfeited, or go with the first keeper costs a 1st round pick, 2nd keeper a 2nd round pick, etc. Depends on if owners are forced to keep players, or have the option to keep up to X number of players.

 

5. No problem, so long as any league rule requires a majority vote (i.e., if league rules require 2/3rd vote to change, then so should keeper rules). I would suggest any vote for keeper changes in the offseason not be put into effect until the following season, as keeper rules affect roster strategies throughout the season.

 

6. Definitely agree with this.

 

7. Disagree with this, but, up to league vote. If you go with pick forfeiture, you just need to define what the initial cost to keep a FA pick up is. If you have a 16 round draft, I'd suggest an 8th round pick to keep a FA pickup.

 

8. Again, disagree with this. IMO, if a player is on a team's roster at the end of the season, they should be eligible to be kept. One major part of keeper leagues is that team's that are out of the playoffs can make trades to make themselves better the following season/years. This often means trading a veteran for youth/picks. If traded players can not be kept, you are eliminating one of the main ways that a weaker team can improve themselves.

 

 

Hope the input helps.

[Goopster24]

Three keepers is usually a good cap. Don't think there is a need to cap positions though. The time seems right, same as my league. The cost is the same too, like that. I think traded players should be keepable.

 

I've always struggled with FA's and keepability. What would the cost be then?

 

Only thing I would add is players in the first two rounds are not eligible to be kept. Allows for top tier players to remain in the draft pool. Other than that, great job!

[Company of Heroes]

Great info here, and I appreciate the input.

 

My thinking on the positional limits is geared towards the less serious owner not being to0 harshly penalized for a bad draft. IE, only 10 RBs (10 team league), WRs, etc can be kept, so the remaining talent pool at each position should be reasonable. We usually randomize draft order every odd round. Should we make first two rounds based on previous years record, to give them a leg up on righting the ship?

 

You may be right that the two year limit is not required because of the two round cost. I guess I just wanted to eliminate an owner getting a major long-term benefit for hitting the late round jackpot a couple times. Again, this just keeps the draft talent pool churning. Goop, the two round draft pick cost assures players can't be kept in first two rounds.

 

Regarding FAs & trades, I was thinking this would discourage roster churning and make owners value their drafted players more. This would reward savvy drafting, but perhaps unintentionally discourages season management by owners of struggling teams. Seems trading- both in-season and off-season- is a potential source of conflict and complexity I was hoping to avoid. I guess keeping a FA pickup for an 8th round pick is unlikely to come into play often...

 

Having not played in a keeper league before, I am struggling to understand all the pro's/con's of the trading aspect (whether to only allow player for player, or also draft pick trades in offseason, make them keepable, is the draft pick negotiable as part of the deal or a function of where the player was drafted?). Again if a saavy owner gets lucky with 4-5 keepable players, I guess I'd want to limit the saavy owner from getting extra benefit over the casual owners by cashing in on all those picks. I'm just trying to reflect the nature of the league.

 

In summary, I agree rule 3 might not be needed and I am conflicted how to proceed regarding FAs and trades.

 

Thanks for the thoughts!

Edited August 8, 2013 by Company of Heroes

[flemingd]

Here's what we do:

 

You must keep two players. One drafted 4-9 and one drafted 10+ and undrafted. There is no cost to keep them, and there is no option to not keep two. Player value lock on draft day and persist through trades, add/drops, etc.

 

It's a one-year keeper max. Most of the big names go back in. Bargains like Doug Martin and Alfred Morris get kept once, but every year the good owners will find new ones. It's just enough incentive for a freak like me that combs over these for hours/days/weeks/months happy, and it's not enough of an imbalance that a casual owner will be unable to compete.

 

The biggest thing you need to worry about is the "white-flag" trades that will happen. Someone will be 5-2 and another guy will be 1-6 and they will do a trade like Drew Brees for Doug Martin and a middle round draft pick. Last year that trade looked idiotic, now (Brees can't be kept and Martin can) it's pretty nice for 1-6 owner.

 

I don't think you want to just arbitrarily disallow traded players to be kept, you'll kill legit trading. Instead, put in a soft trade deadline. Our league's rules are "After NFL Week 9, no trades may include future draft picks, and all players traded will be ineligible to be kept". This is due to guys in our league not wanting to allow white-flag trades as above. I am fine with them, they really stress the overall franchise ownership aspect, but the league is pretty casual and most owners don't want it to be a keeper-centric league.

 

Definitely allow offseason trades for upcoming draft picks. The guy with 4 good keepers can get rewarded for his depth by picking up extra picks/moving up, and the guys with crappy keepers can fix them cheap.

 

I love the idea of only allowing one per position. I wouldn't do that in a small league or with only 2 keepers, but for example I'm in a 12 man league with one owner rocking AP and Doug Martin with another having Foster, Charles, and Morris. Nothing will scare away a new keeper league than seeing something like that.

 

Lastly, any change to keeper rules shouldn't take effect until the following year. Otherwise, you're open to "whoa man, if I had known that I wouldn't have Doug Martin or dropped Lamar Miller" complaints. Our wording is "any rule that potentially affects how an owner would have made decisions last year will not go into effect the year they are voted in, instead being enforce the following season."

[Company of Heroes]

There are so many ways to set this up!

 

For clarification, I was planning to make teams keep 0-3 keepers.

 

So many potential ramifications regarding trades! I think having up to 3 keepers is plenty reward for saavy owners without allowing them to cash in on additional trades for picks, while the positional limit ensures a reasonable talent pool for less-savvy owners.

 

Please explain how trading allows the guys with crappy keepers to fix them cheap. I guess it depends on trade rules...

 

Thanks!

[UnclePab]

Re: rules 7 and 8: In my keeper league, our rule is that to keep a player, he must have been on your roster for at least 4 weeks (and be on your roster at season's end). This is to prevent someone from picking up and stashing an injured star player at the end of a season just to keep them for the next year.

[Big Country]

There are so many ways to set this up!

 

For clarification, I was planning to make teams keep 0-3 keepers.

 

So many potential ramifications regarding trades! I think having up to 3 keepers is plenty reward for saavy owners without allowing them to cash in on additional trades for picks, while the positional limit ensures a reasonable talent pool for less-savvy owners.

 

Please explain how trading allows the guys with crappy keepers to fix them cheap. I guess it depends on trade rules...

 

Thanks!

 

 

Team A has 4-5 keeper worthy players.

 

Team B has one player worth keeping.

 

 

Team B can give up a pick to Team A for a keepable player.

 

 

Trade makes sense for Team A - they get something for a player they couldn't keep anyway.

 

Trade makes sense for Team B - they immediately improve their team with a better keeper at the minimal cost of a draft pick.

 

 

Now, if Team B is dumb enough to give up a high draft pick for a player the other team can't keep, they won't see as much benefit. If they are savvy enough to remind Team A that they are essentially getting a free draft pick improvement to make a deal of one of the players that can;t even keep, they come out much better.

 

A simple example would be Team A giving up the player plus say a 10th round pick to Team B for a 7th round pick. Minimal drop in value for Team B to go from the 7th to the 10th, especially after keepers are factored in, but a potential major gain in value for getting a keeper quality player.

 

Now, if you do go with the forfeit a pick to keep a player route, it complicates the trade value a bit more, as the owner receiving the player has to also factor in the cost to keep the player in making their offer.

[stevegrab]

Like others have said I think you definitely should allow traded players to be kept.

 

Big Country provides a great example of trading within keeper rules, and that is something we see a lot of in our league (5 keepers, no limits of any kind). We often see a player for draft pick trade before the season starts. Even in season you'll see some of that.

 

You also mentioned conditional picks, we've seen those in trades in our league as well, usually with a 1-2 round pick gap, based on things like the player being kept, or where that player finished in scoring at their position.

 

I agree that rules which limit how long and who can be kept to keep the top talent going back into the draft regularly is good. I also think that allowing flexibility in how many you keep is a good idea. We don't do either, we just keep 5 and 60 players are out of the pool, then we start our draft. I'd love to have say a minimum of 3, max of 5. If you don't protect a 4/5 player, you get picks in the draft before all other owners start. Provides more options for teams with lower talent or looking to do more rebuilding.

 

Good luck, as BC said in his first post, if you're trying to keep it simple, considering removing some of the restrictions to make it easier to understand.

[Company of Heroes]

Thanks again for the great info and suggestions!

[flemingd]

Please explain how trading allows the guys with crappy keepers to fix them cheap. I guess it depends on trade rules...

 

Thanks!

 

 

Player A has Lamar Miller he can't keep. Player B has a keeper spot open. Lamar Miller is ADP in the 3/4 range. No way B is going to give a 3/4 for Miller in that case, he tells A "I'll just take my chance he's there for me in the draft, and if not that means someone else like Bell is". He might be willing to give a 5, and since A can either accept that or get nothing from Miller, he's likely to take it. B gets back maybe a 10th just to keep rosters clean, so now he ends up with Lamar Miller and a 10th round pick for his 5th - pretty cheap.

[Company of Heroes]

Player A has Lamar Miller he can't keep. Player B has a keeper spot open. Lamar Miller is ADP in the 3/4 range. No way B is going to give a 3/4 for Miller in that case, he tells A "I'll just take my chance he's there for me in the draft, and if not that means someone else like Bell is". He might be willing to give a 5, and since A can either accept that or get nothing from Miller, he's likely to take it. B gets back maybe a 10th just to keep rosters clean, so now he ends up with Lamar Miller and a 10th round pick for his 5th - pretty cheap.

 

 

Makes sense. I guess my whole reason for limiting keeper trades, number of max keepers, and positional limit of 1 is to more talent going back into the pool each season and put a limit to how much advantage owners can squeeze from their keepable players thereby turning off casual owners. More talent in the draft seems like it would make it more compelling, and allowing the worst teams to pick first ensures they get first crack at the best players.

 

CoH

[cmutts]

12 team, 10+ yr, keeper league.

 

3 per team any position.

However, any player drafted 1st 4 rounds can not be kept.

1st yr keeper costs one round higher.

2nd yr keeper defaults to ADP one week prior to draft.

Undrafted player costs a 12th

[Company of Heroes]

It seems like the basic variants of keeper cost significantly effect the flavor of the fantasy league. One rewards late round legends but keeps the top talent in the draft every year, the other allows teams to really establish their team's identity over the years with a core group of 2-3 players, which consequently are not available in the draft year to year

Keepers cost two rounds earlier draft pick. This rewards saavy drafting, encourages finding prospects, and keeps the best talent available in each year's draft since the first two rounds go back into the draft every year. The downside is that a player that hits a late-round lottery pick can get a big advantage long term in a league filled with several more casual owners. But this seems like it would be fairly rare.

Keepers cost a 1st, then 2nd, then 3rd round draft pick. The advantage of this variant is that keepers always stay expensive, struggling teams without keeper-worthy players get the first 3 picks before other owners get to take a player, an owner can keep players they like on their roster for as long as they want, and it establishes the identity of a team long term. The obvious downside is that as many as the top 24-36 players every year could be kept and therefore not available for the draft.

[flemingd]

 

Keepers cost a 1st, then 2nd, then 3rd round draft pick. The advantage of this variant is that keepers always stay expensive, struggling teams without keeper-worthy players get the first 3 picks before other owners get to take a player, an owner can keep players they like on their roster for as long as they want, and it establishes the identity of a team long term. The obvious downside is that as many as the top 24-36 players every year could be kept and therefore not available for the draft.

 

 

I suggest making them keep a 3rd, 2nd, then 1st in order. Seems counter intuitive, but in practice it's much less penalizing to those with bad keepers. I know, I know, manage your keepers better, but in a 12 man league that can get away from you quickly. The guy with Foster, Charles, and Morris isn't affected, but the guy with Brees, Cruz, and a candy bar can now go into the draft with a 1st rounder available and have a shot at a RB in the 1st. And if that guy throws Lamar Miller back in because he costs a first round, is that really that bad a thing? Putting more players back into the pool just give more chances for owners to get it right. That guy with Foster, Charles, and Morris isn't getting Miller anyway, so it's a zero effect to him.

[Company of Heroes]

I actually think that sounds kinda interesting.

 

The other variant I thought of is that each player can keep one 'franchise' player as long as they wish for a 1st rounder. They can keep two more players at the cost of 2 rounds prior to where they were taken the previous year. It seems a balance of letting teams keep the stud they want, rewarding saavy drafters, and keeps talent in the draft since only around 12 or so of the top players will be kept.

 

But I do like your suggestion, flemingd. Things to think about...

[MTSuper7]

I actually think that sounds kinda interesting.

 

The other variant I thought of is that each player can keep one 'franchise' player as long as they wish for a 1st rounder. They can keep two more players at the cost of 2 rounds prior to where they were taken the previous year. It seems a balance of letting teams keep the stud they want, rewarding saavy drafters, and keeps talent in the draft since only around 12 or so of the top players will be kept.

 

But I do like your suggestion, flemingd. Things to think about...

 

 

You need to decide whether or not you want to keep this simple for the casual folks. I'm not a big fan of keeper leagues if the owners are casual. If they end up with a crappy season, they might just walk instead of staying in the league. Just keep in mind that by introducing keepers, you are introducing rules that potentially cause a poor season/draft to put someone in a bad spot for the following year which might cause them to decide they aren't interested in returning. Keepers/dynasty can be a lot of fun with the right group of owners, but one poorly managed team that gets abandoned can be difficult to manage (finding a new owner willing to take on a team at a disadvantage).

 

If you do decide to go with keepers, I agree to start with 2, not 3. And as long as the rules are well written and clearly communicated, I don't think casual fans will struggle to follow. They just might struggle to be competitive.

[dfv87]

1) You can keep up to 3 keepers. Could bump down to 2, but 3 seems reasonable.

I would do 2.

2) You can only have one keeper per position (QB,RB,WR, etc.)

No, keeper is a keeper...

3) You can only keep a player for 2 times. Player drafted in 2013 can be kept in 2014 and 2015.

We do 1 yr, makes sure studs are in every other draft.

4) Keepers cost a draft pick two rounds earlier than they cost the previous year. Player drafted in 2013 7th rd costs a 2014 5th rounder, and 3rd rounder in 2015 if kept again

If everyone is keeping 2 or 3 just draft... a keeper is a keeper.

5) Changes to keeper rules must be made two weeks prior to draft based on majority rules.

Your league... so sure whatever you agree on

6) Keepers will be declared one week prior to the 2014 draft. This allows everyone to know which players are available prior to the draft.

We do this also, it helps design a strategy if everybody is keeping RBS or WRS that you may value certain positions more.

7) Players acquired thru free agency during the season are NOT eligible to be kept.

We allow this, but your league.

8) Traded players are not eligible to be kept.

We allow it BUT if I kept him last year he MUST go back in the draft this year and you cannot keep him again... so if I had AP and kept him then traded him in the 2nd year, even though you have never kept him he still goes back... see rule 3

[slinger]

Great info here, and I appreciate the input.

 

My thinking on the positional limits is geared towards the less serious owner not being too harshly penalized for a bad draft.

 

I guess I just wanted to eliminate an owner getting a major long-term benefit for hitting the late round jackpot a couple times.

 

 

I may be cherry picking here on the replies, but I've been a keeper league for almost 20 years. Part of the fun of the keeper league is exactly picking a late round jackpot, and then keeping him for two additional years. thus keeping him from the rest of the league.

 

But, ultimately someone will have a bad draft, and they could be a terrible team for a couple of years because of it. I've seen it happen all the time in my keeper leagues. But then, they get that jackpot player near the end of the draft and all is well again.

 

That's the nature of keeper leagues.