AP - is he always this bad?

[keggerz]

I can't remember seeing Freeman audible once last night...that's what happens when you don't know the playbook that well...Now I could be mistaken, but between nodding off from the lack of excitement in the game and what I saw I don't recall any audibles...did anyone actually see him audible?

[buddahj]

I can't remember seeing Freeman audible once last night...that's what happens when you don't know the playbook that well...Now I could be mistaken, but between nodding off from the lack of excitement in the game and what I saw I don't recall any audibles...did anyone actually see him audible?

 

Not that I can remember.

[hardway]

No audibles, just drop back and throw it 5 yards away from a generally open WR somewhere downfield. Didn't even look at AP standing there in the middle of the field wide open, not that he's any good at YAC or anything.

[stevegrab]

Seemed like the Vikings are trying to position themselves for a better draft pick with that decision. Like somebody else said, everybody including the Giants knew he'd be unprepared to handle the offense, well everybody except the Vikings coaches (or did they).

 

As for AP, he sure was getting stuffed a lot last night, and I was a little surprised it was that bad. Obviously the OL issue and no fear of Freeman greatly contributed to that. But the "is he alway this bad", surely you could just look at his stats, how he played last year following the injury to knowt he answer is a HELL NO.

[Ice717]

Lets take this conversation to more fantasy relevant. AP health wise is fine and still as talented as ever, but would you be trying to trade for AP in fantasy world? Are you trading a Tier 1 WR for him? Tier 1 TE? Etc The concerns on offense are definitely a factor for AP's fantasy relevance overall.

[kzook76]

AP is not horrible they just knew Freeman was unprepared and they just stacked the box.

[FatalFact]

AP is not horrible they just knew Freeman was unprepared and they just stacked the box.

 

 

People have been stacking the box against him since 07... why is it different NOW?

[Gopher]

One, it's not like AP had a ton of touches/carries. What did he get... 12 or 13? He's had many games (this year and in the past) where his first dozen carries doesn't net him more than 25-30 yards, then he breaks a long run on his 15th (or 20th) carry. The fact is that they didn't give him many touches, when he's been their bread and butter. Local radio is crucifying the coaching staff today. When your QB is not prepared (doesn't know the offense), and you're known to be a run-first team, why call a game that includes said QB throwing 50+ times? It's not like this was a blowout... They were within 1-2 scores for most of the game. Yet, they quickly got away from giving AP touches.

 

Secondly, yes, teams have always stacked the box against AP. The difference here is that the Giants had to know that Freeman's lack of preparation was going to be an issue. Stacking the box because the opposing QB is limited (Ponder) is one thing. Stacking the box because you know the opposing QB is going to be completely lost out there is another. At least Ponder was somewhat of a running threat that opposing defenses had to account for. Freeman was nothing of the sort. He was throwing where receivers weren't. I keep hearing people talking about a lot of his throws being way off, and granted, some of them were badly overthrown, etc. But, in the NFL, a lot of QB play has to do with timing, knowing where your receivers are going to be, knowing where and when they're going to cut, etc. Freeman didn't know much/any of that , so it was like guessing blind. The problem seemed to compound itself, as the game progressed (and as he became more frustrated).

 

It was like watching someone play a video game, and they don't know what any of the controls/buttons do... Hit X, thinking the WR is going to cut right, and he goes left instead. That's my best comparison to what I saw last night... It was like trying to play a video game that you've never played before. The smart/conservative thing to do, in that situation, is to try to get some first downs, running the ball, until you figure out the passing part. But, instead, the Vikings just passed, passed, passed... And then punted when they didn't complete any of the passes. Rinse, repeat.

 

Lastly, the Vikings have always found ways to get the ball in AP's hands. Sometimes, they've had to be more creative than others. Last night, there was none of that. No creativity. No trying to get him the ball through the air. They didn't use any creativity with anybody else (Patterson, for example), either. I figured, with Freeman struggling, we might see them try to get the ball in another play-maker's hands (besides AP). Maybe a bit of trickery, a reverse, flea-flicker, etc. Nope... Just let Freeman continue to make an embarrassment of himself. It was hard to watch, and I felt bad for the guy.

 

It sounds like last night was in large part a result of Frazier not being happy with the Freeman move, and basically giving the upper management a big "F You." In other words, you want me to start over with a new QB, well then here you go. I'm starting him this week, and it's going to be a disaster. I'm sure he'll get his from them, in return, in time... But, for now, it sounds like all jobs are safe. In all reality, that makes sense... If they're going to fire the coach(es), what's the rush at this point? Might as well take their time and, for once, try to pick the right guy(s).

 

The GM needs to go as well, IMO. The Ponder pick was questionable (leaning more towards bad), and any time you manage to pick three first rounders and none of them make an immediate impact, something is wrong. Of course, that is definitely partially coaching, too. I'm not convinced they're all not good players with a lot of potential, but the fact that none of them have done much so far (other than Patterson returning kicks) is pretty sad. Rhodes (supposedly one of the top backs in the draft) is lost in coverage, Floyd's biggest impact so far has been fumbling a kickoff return, of all things, and Patterson has been a non-factor on offense.

 

Still, when it all boils down to it, if we're talking about whether or not to start AP, I think the answer is obvious. For most of us, what are the alternatives? It's not like there are a bunch of waiver wire options, in most leagues, at RB. AP, on a bad day, is usually going to be a top 15-20 RB. On a good day, he's top 2-3, if not #1 overall. This week, which was by far his worst week of the year, he was right around #30-35, depending on scoring. Even with that brutal performance, he's still #6 overall (again, give or take a spot or two, depending on scoring). I have to assume this week was more of an aberration, than a trend that we'll see week after week. Freeman will get better as he spends more time with the offense. If not, we'll see Ponder or Cassell again (sooner than later). Either way, the offense will open up (somewhat), and Peterson will get back to scoring double-digits on a weekly basis.

[Gopher]

I don't think I've ever compared anything in the NFL to a video game before. Then again, I don't think I've ever seen anything as bad as last night, either.

[delusions of grandeur]

Yep, there have been plenty of games where they sold out to stop AP, and it was effective for the most part. Even his big first game this year, he only got something like 9 yards in the second half. But you give the guy more touches, get him involved in the passing game too, and he's gonna bust some big gains. That's what they didn't do.

 

I also agree that there's a difference between selling out on the run, and knowing you're up against a QB who can't make a throw to an open receiver. IMO, that allowed them to key on the run even more than normal.

[stevegrab]

I don't think I've ever compared anything in the NFL to a video game before. Then again, I don't think I've ever seen anything as bad as last night, either.

 

 

It seemed as if once they decided to start Freeman that they lost their mind and couldn't do anything right. I had never seen AP getting pounded so many plays behind the line of scrimmage. I can understand at some point that the coaches think running him is a bad idea, so how about a screen pass or some dump offs. Something to get him involved.

 

I do like the video game analogy, my one brother never played as much as I did, when he'd try a game for the first time he'd just randomly hit buttons like crazy hoping he'd do something right.

[BeeR]

So I haven't watched AP before tonight,

I agree: so?

 

Is he having an off night or is he washed up?

All washed up. If you have him on your FF team, you should cut him.

[Joebirds55]

 

And I think this is where his home runs have come. When you bust through the 8-man front, there isn't much secondary help after the first line of defense. The Vikings should have kept feeding AP the ball and he eventually could have busted a long one. The game was close enough that they didn't need to go to a pass-first mentality. The Vikings are lucky none of their receivers didn't get seriously hurt.

 

 

So you're still thinking you'd basically trade anyone else in fantasy for him?

[nelsosi]

There's a fair FF question in here (despite the horrible way this thread was started), where the 'why' doesn't really matter when counting up the stats at the end of the season. It's fair to worry about him facing 8 man fronts the rest of the season, and it's fair to worry about his RZ opportunities in that offense, as well as his touch count if the Vikings have to abandon the run in games where they fall behind. I guess the real question is whether you would trade him right now in a redraft for someone like Lynch or Forte (probably yes), or even a Moreno or Lacy (I'd think hard about it). I think there's no question I'd flip him for Charles or McCoy if given the opportunity.

 

 

 

EDIT: Just saw ice717's post earlier asking a similar question, but the inverse (trading FOR AP, instead of trading him away)

Edited October 23, 2013 by nelsosi

[Wpob]

It was like watching someone play a video game, and they don't know what any of the controls/buttons do... Hit X, thinking the WR is going to cut right, and he goes left instead. That's my best comparison to what I saw last night... It was like trying to play a video game that you've never played before.

 

 

That is such an awesome analogy for what Freeman looked like that I am furious at myself for not thinking of it during the game. Especially since I am usually the guy just randomly pressing buttons on the controller until my kids just turn the game off and walk away in disgust.

[MustOfBeenDrunk]

That is such an awesome analogy for what Freeman looked like that I am furious at myself for not thinking of it during the game. Especially since I am usually the guy just randomly pressing buttons on the controller until my kids just turn the game off and walk away in disgust.

 

LOL ,, I'm with you

[ffgreg]

zekez be like "yo gaiz whats a box and why they stackin it?"

[hardway]

Hey, Ponder back in has to be a good thing, right? Can't believe I just typed those words.

[ffgreg]

Hey, Ponder back in has to be a good thing, right? Can't believe I just typed those words.

 

 

Yes, it is a good thing due to familiarity. The need to pass to AP out of the backfield more to make him truly effective moving forward.

[wpayers]

One, it's not like AP had a ton of touches/carries. What did he get... 12 or 13? He's had many games (this year and in the past) where his first dozen carries doesn't net him more than 25-30 yards, then he breaks a long run on his 15th (or 20th) carry. The fact is that they didn't give him many touches, when he's been their bread and butter. Local radio is crucifying the coaching staff today. When your QB is not prepared (doesn't know the offense), and you're known to be a run-first team, why call a game that includes said QB throwing 50+ times? It's not like this was a blowout... They were within 1-2 scores for most of the game. Yet, they quickly got away from giving AP touches.

 

Secondly, yes, teams have always stacked the box against AP. The difference here is that the Giants had to know that Freeman's lack of preparation was going to be an issue. Stacking the box because the opposing QB is limited (Ponder) is one thing. Stacking the box because you know the opposing QB is going to be completely lost out there is another. At least Ponder was somewhat of a running threat that opposing defenses had to account for. Freeman was nothing of the sort. He was throwing where receivers weren't. I keep hearing people talking about a lot of his throws being way off, and granted, some of them were badly overthrown, etc. But, in the NFL, a lot of QB play has to do with timing, knowing where your receivers are going to be, knowing where and when they're going to cut, etc. Freeman didn't know much/any of that , so it was like guessing blind. The problem seemed to compound itself, as the game progressed (and as he became more frustrated).

 

It was like watching someone play a video game, and they don't know what any of the controls/buttons do... Hit X, thinking the WR is going to cut right, and he goes left instead. That's my best comparison to what I saw last night... It was like trying to play a video game that you've never played before. The smart/conservative thing to do, in that situation, is to try to get some first downs, running the ball, until you figure out the passing part. But, instead, the Vikings just passed, passed, passed... And then punted when they didn't complete any of the passes. Rinse, repeat.

 

Lastly, the Vikings have always found ways to get the ball in AP's hands. Sometimes, they've had to be more creative than others. Last night, there was none of that. No creativity. No trying to get him the ball through the air. They didn't use any creativity with anybody else (Patterson, for example), either. I figured, with Freeman struggling, we might see them try to get the ball in another play-maker's hands (besides AP). Maybe a bit of trickery, a reverse, flea-flicker, etc. Nope... Just let Freeman continue to make an embarrassment of himself. It was hard to watch, and I felt bad for the guy.

 

It sounds like last night was in large part a result of Frazier not being happy with the Freeman move, and basically giving the upper management a big "F You." In other words, you want me to start over with a new QB, well then here you go. I'm starting him this week, and it's going to be a disaster. I'm sure he'll get his from them, in return, in time... But, for now, it sounds like all jobs are safe. In all reality, that makes sense... If they're going to fire the coach(es), what's the rush at this point? Might as well take their time and, for once, try to pick the right guy(s).

 

The GM needs to go as well, IMO. The Ponder pick was questionable (leaning more towards bad), and any time you manage to pick three first rounders and none of them make an immediate impact, something is wrong. Of course, that is definitely partially coaching, too. I'm not convinced they're all not good players with a lot of potential, but the fact that none of them have done much so far (other than Patterson returning kicks) is pretty sad. Rhodes (supposedly one of the top backs in the draft) is lost in coverage, Floyd's biggest impact so far has been fumbling a kickoff return, of all things, and Patterson has been a non-factor on offense.

 

Still, when it all boils down to it, if we're talking about whether or not to start AP, I think the answer is obvious. For most of us, what are the alternatives? It's not like there are a bunch of waiver wire options, in most leagues, at RB. AP, on a bad day, is usually going to be a top 15-20 RB. On a good day, he's top 2-3, if not #1 overall. This week, which was by far his worst week of the year, he was right around #30-35, depending on scoring. Even with that brutal performance, he's still #6 overall (again, give or take a spot or two, depending on scoring). I have to assume this week was more of an aberration, than a trend that we'll see week after week. Freeman will get better as he spends more time with the offense. If not, we'll see Ponder or Cassell again (sooner than later). Either way, the offense will open up (somewhat), and Peterson will get back to scoring double-digits on a weekly basis.

 

This is very impressive analysis...ever think about doing this for living?

[Papajohn]

 

This is very impressive analysis...ever think about doing this for living?

 

 

+1

 

Gopher has been on fire the last few days in a lot of threads

[Gopher]

 

You guys are too kind.

[Joebirds55]

Looked strong tonight. Anyone concerned about him after getting so few touches again? Or just a product of Minnesota getting killed?

[Grogansghost]

Looked strong tonight. Anyone concerned about him after getting so few touches again? Or just a product of Minnesota getting killed?

 

 

Think it was a product of them getting killed - why risk injury to AP when the game is lost.

 

That being said - if they keep starting Ponder or Freeman, I'm worried that they'll keep getting killed.

[delusions of grandeur]

Looked strong tonight. Anyone concerned about him after getting so few touches again? Or just a product of Minnesota getting killed?

 

Playing from behind and Green Bay dominating time of possession definitely limited his opportunities, but they did score 23 points offensively. And then when the game got out of hand, Gerhart got the cleanup work. I think that Ponder is great for AP and Blaire Walsh's value, but obviously not the answer for the Vikes.