We are not watching football anymore

[keggerz]

This worked for me. (would not open when clicking on link either)

 

On the hit itself, I don't see anything wrong. He literally hugs him around the shoulders. If that is not a legal tackle, then I don't know what is. He did not go for the head or neck area, intentionally or not. Sure it looks bad in slow-motion, but any hit in the game where a speeding defender hits a standing still guy will look just as bad. Just so much force involved when someone that big going that fast crashes into you.

 

 

 

You saw the GIF yet you say he hugs him around the shoulders? That's part of the problem...everyone sees the same play(s) but sees them differently...After seeing the GIF I don't know how anyone can say that Brees didn't take a bicep to the neck.

[gandalas]

You saw the GIF yet you say he hugs him around the shoulders? That's part of the problem...everyone sees the same play(s) but sees them differently...After seeing the GIF I don't know how anyone can say that Brees didn't take a bicep to the neck.

 

 

Yes, I see him hitting him initially in the Right shoulder. That is why the neck looks like it is "Stretching" out like that. Because his chest/shoulders are being driven backwards, and his neck stays in place for a second until it catches up with the area being driven backwards.

 

If it was a hit in the neck initially, then the neck would be moving backwards first, not the chest/shoulder area.

 

Sure, his biceps ended up where his neck is, but the force of the hit was in the shoulder/chest area, not the neck. That is why the head/neck looks to stand still for a second.

Edited November 18, 2013 by gandalas

[rattsass]

You saw the GIF yet you say he hugs him around the shoulders? That's part of the problem...everyone sees the same play(s) but sees them differently...After seeing the GIF I don't know how anyone can say that Brees didn't take a bicep to the neck.

 

 

I will grant you that, but that was not the intent nor the target of the defender. He could have easily tacked higher if he intended to hit the neck/ head area. Instead, the neck was grazed - and the prevous poster expalined the physics of the play.

 

Yes, by the letter of the law, that play can be called a penalty. I just think in that situation it should not have. I like football. That was a fine football play. Nothing dirty in intent or delivery. It should not be a penalty, and it sucks that it is.

[keggerz]

I will grant you that, but that was not the intent nor the target of the defender. He could have easily tacked higher if he intended to hit the neck/ head area. Instead, the neck was grazed - and the prevous poster expalined the physics of the play.

 

Yes, by the letter of the law, that play can be called a penalty. I just think in that situation it should not have. I like football. That was a fine football play. Nothing dirty in intent or delivery. It should not be a penalty, and it sucks that it is.

 

But as you know, intent doesn't matter...just like 99.999% of facemask penalties aren't intentional but they have to call it.

[rattsass]

But as you know, intent doesn't matter...just like 99.999% of facemask penalties aren't intentional but they have to call it.

 

 

But to extend that thought, I have seen hands "graze" facemasks without being called a majority of the time. Much as Brees neck was "grazed" but did not bear the brunt of the hit. I just hate to see a game decided like that. And it was decided on that call. The Saint didn't deserve to win that game because Brees neck was grazed. I think that is my big picture view once you wipe away the minutia.

[Def.]

Agreed with the pussification of the NFL. I tried arguing this years ago with Harrison was getting all the attention and got lambasted for trying to stick up for him. I was not just sticking up for the Steelers at the time, but the future of the NFL. The problem for me now is that it is not totally consistent. I think they should make the rules more definite so that refs judgement is taken out as much as possible.

 

1. A rule that every tackle must be an attempted wrap.

2. No wrapping around the neck or head.

 

I think this would solve a lot of issues especially all the flying to the leg injuries at the moment. Also in this context this would have been a foul, but it if was consistently called I think the defender would have found a way to lower his arm a little as to not incur the penalty.

 

 

No offense, but you were probably lambasted cause Harrison was a head hunter. Head hunting can not be allowed, but then again neither can the crap that was called yesterday. Hard to strike that balance.

[Bobby Brown]

But to extend that thought, I have seen hands "graze" facemasks without being called a majority of the time.

 

 

Weird, not only have I seen more than a couple cheap grazing calls on Qbs for a penalty; I've seen them held up for 15 to 20K fines.

[SNOWBOUND33]

 

 

So what do you suggest? Remove the defenseless player protections and watch more of our heroes eat their guns in their 50's? (Or 40, or 20's?). You wanna see more Kyle Orton, Ryan Mallet, and Brock Osweiler playing QB? You wanna see the NFL get their brains sued out because they now know of some of the dangers yet refuse to protect players against them? You want to see more players splayed out on the ground, flopping like fish out of water, after getting rammed at full speed in the head?

 

 

Guess what else - smoking is bad for you. Pregnant women shouldn't drink or take most medications. And kids shouldn't play with lead based paint. Unless of course you don't want to be a suzuki. Then you should do all of the above more.

 

 

When you learn about new risks, you make changes. It's how the world works. It's ignorant and flabbergasting that we still have people pissing and moaning about this instead of realizing that guys like Junior Seau and Dave Duerson might not have eaten their guns, might still be around, if we had known the risks earlier and been able to figure out ways to make it safer.

 

The problem is that most are willing to take those risks. For the cash, the fame, the glory, whatever. Yes had we known about these risks alot of people would not have played violent sports. But now we do and hmmm.... their are plenty still out there taking them.

[stevegrab]

You would think so but not anymore I guess... What do they want these guys to do pitter patter and assess the situation before they hit someone? For truck sakes the refs delegated the outcome of the game these days it's trucking pathetic! I give up there's a flag on every other play now and it's just bullhonda. Might as well have them where flags and the QBs where there practice red shirts for the games as well. The game was not mistake free by the Niners today obviously there were bonehead plays and coaching decisions but c'mon they were jobbed today period

 

 

They want them to stop hitting the QBs high (neck and head) and low (below the knee). Penalties will be calle when you do. As a player you can choose to adapt or have penalties called.

 

As a an you need to stop your bellyaching tha the 49ers were robbed of a win by bad calls. It is beyond old and lame.

 

Ok how about block better. Payton manning seems to never get hit on either team he plays for! This is football. Tackle football. If your 5 foot whatever your going to take hits up around your head. Get bigger qb. Its the same reason you dont see 190lb linebackers. That hit although hard was totally legal for a 6 ft 6 de coming in to tackle a 6ft qb. What he should have crouched down before he hit him. Sorry that was a great play that should have stood. Hell you could bring in a midget and get a call on every play because you hit him to high or go to low. Risk of the game imo. Actually that may be one hell of a future strategy sign a midget and put him in shotgun and call screen protection. With todays rules you could march down the field on 15 yard ruffing calls as long as your little guy could hold up.

 

 

Man that was al pretty lame, but I guess you have to find something to complain about with the Cowboys off. So Brees shoudn't be allowed to play QB because he's too short and the 6'6" defenders just naturally hit him in the head/neck area every time they tackle him.

 

There was a time when there was no forward pass in football either, that changed and players adapted. All this whining about the refs is just a bunch of wannabe tough guys whining about their tough man sport being turned into touch football. Sounds like you want fight club not the NFL.

[stevegrab]

You're going to tell me that NFL players - whom virtually all, if not literally all, have at least some meaningful college level education; and whom virtually all, if not literally all, have played the sport of football for at least half of their lives on this Earth - have no reasonable and rational concept of the inherent dangers of the profession? That had the NFL not "hid" data regarding concussions that they could not possibly have been expected to find data themselves or from their own physicians that would have educated them on the risks of playing the game - not to mention the common sense aspect that the average person understands if they happen to get hit in the head severly multiple times?

 

 

You don't seriously believe the bolded do you? What percentage of NFL players do you honestly think learned anything in college? I'm not talking just guys like Luck, but knuckleheads like Bowe and Snelling too.

[rebdog]

i get the reasoning for rule changes. i don't wish pain and suffering in later life to any athlete.

but these changes to protect the QB and defenseless receivers has effected my enjoyment of the game. maybe its coincidental, but my interest is waning. you take the physical play from football and its not football.

i used to love football. to see a great defence take on a great offence. but defences aren't allowed to play anymore. times change. i guess i'll maybe watch more NHL going forward. the NHL has rules to protect players but it hasn't impacted the game the way the NFL's has.

[Delicious_bass]

 

 

This kind of argument drives me nuts. Please don't try to tell me that NFL players do not understand that getting hit in the head is a part of the normal course of activity in their chosen profession, that they don't understand that concussions are really bad for one's health - especially multiple concussions, or that they had no other choice but to participate in a vocation with such high risks rather than opting out for some other line of work.

 

You're going to tell me that NFL players - whom virtually all, if not literally all, have at least some meaningful college level education; and whom virtually all, if not literally all, have played the sport of football for at least half of their lives on this Earth - have no reasonable and rational concept of the inherent dangers of the profession? That had the NFL not "hid" data regarding concussions that they could not possibly have been expected to find data themselves or from their own physicians that would have educated them on the risks of playing the game - not to mention the common sense aspect that the average person understands if they happen to get hit in the head severly multiple times?

 

Let's be completely honest. Football is a dangerous profession that every participant at the NFL level has chosen to engage in because the level of reward, from monetary compensation to the lifestyle to the fame among other things. There is significant inherent risk of injury that goes with that substantial compensation. No one has forced the players to participate against their will. And in fact, the players often forego minimum reasonable standards to help protect themselves - such as adequate padding and constant use of mouthguards on the field - and also intentionally engage in what is inherently more dangerous and by the rules of the game illegal activities such as striking with the crown of the helmet or high/low double team blocks, and more importantly knowingly and willingly do so.

 

Because the risks are high, there are some very unfortunate and tragic consequences. It is appalling at times, as all such tragedies are - and they happen in vocations with greater risk and much less compensation than what the NFL offers, but of course those people aren't as high profile as NFL players so we don't get inundated with their stories. But to think that NFL players were completely oblivious of these consequences and chose to participate voluntarily with no foreknowledge of what are in fact the inherent dangers of the game is frankly ludicrous.

 

This is just another example of the victim mentality excusing all the consequences brought on by personal choice, something which we as a society wallow in and encourage. I believe that the NFL fully understands the nature of the violence of the game, and as such should participate in the costs to the players. But to completely lay this at the league's feet because they hid the violence of the game and risks to health from the players, and not also hold players equally accountable for their choices seems simply unreasonable and irrational to me.

 

well said

[HowboutthemCowboys]

 

 

Sure, if you are my 9 year old nephew. Pouting helps too.

 

Or, you can adjust to the new rules and understand you can't just go balls to the wall at the QB without consequences. You have to be more cautious, and that's exactly what the NFL wants.

 

 

 

 

 

It's risky to get on a motorcycle or into a racecar, yet that doesn't mean those sports don't keep trying to improve safety. As should the NFL.

 

 

 

pass rushers need to succeed or they don't get paid. what about those guys and their jobs? if they don't go balls to the wall and get to the QB they don't get re signed

 

 

let me know when the safety improvements in nascar and motorcycle racing affect the outcome of a race

 

 

[flemingd]

You're going to tell me that NFL players - whom virtually all, if not literally all, have at least some meaningful college level education; and whom virtually all, if not literally all, have played the sport of football for at least half of their lives on this Earth - have no reasonable and rational concept of the inherent dangers of the profession?

 

 

 

I never said anything of the sort. What I said is that the basis for their lawsuit is that, while they knew of "some" level of risk, they felt the NFL had "much more conclusive and dire" knowledge of the risk and failed to warn the players. It's called informed consent, and it's a massive legal issue. I don't even agree with the players in their lawsuit, personally.

[Bronco Billy]

 

You don't seriously believe the bolded do you? What percentage of NFL players do you honestly think learned anything in college? I'm not talking just guys like Luck, but knuckleheads like Bowe and Snelling too.

 

 

So whose fault is it if they choose not to learn anything in college? Who besides the players can we blame and then find liable for that?

[Bronco Billy]

 

 

 

I never said anything of the sort. What I said is that the basis for their lawsuit is that, while they knew of "some" level of risk, they felt the NFL had "much more conclusive and dire" knowledge of the risk and failed to warn the players. It's called informed consent, and it's a massive legal issue. I don't even agree with the players in their lawsuit, personally.

 

 

Thanks for clarifying. Agreed on the implied consent - and yes it is a massive legal issue. I just have a difficult time finding the NFL completely at fault when players intentionally neglect wearing equipment that might prevent or lessen injuries, and then seeing players engage in techniques that they know full well place themselves and others at substantially greater risk.

 

I appreciate your response.

[whomper]

Receivers don't even have alligator arms anymore. They can go over the middle freely now because the defender needs to file a motion with the supreme court to hit him

[stevegrab]

So whose fault is it if they choose not to learn anything in college? Who besides the players can we blame and then find liable for that?

 

Completely different topic, you're trying to make the average NFL player sound like a fully college educated person, when you know that to be complete BS. Your average NFL player spent 2 years in college and learned very little, they're probably not as well educated as the average high school graduate.

 

I'm not looking to blame anybody for that, or anything else, please don't put words in my mouth.

[jbran23]

 

 

Yes, I see him hitting him initially in the Right shoulder. That is why the neck looks like it is "Stretching" out like that. Because his chest/shoulders are being driven backwards, and his neck stays in place for a second until it catches up with the area being driven backwards.

 

If it was a hit in the neck initially, then the neck would be moving backwards first, not the chest/shoulder area.

 

Sure, his biceps ended up where his neck is, but the force of the hit was in the shoulder/chest area, not the neck. That is why the head/neck looks to stand still for a second.

 

+1

 

Could not have explained it better myself.

 

After thinking about this all day Ive come to a conclusion. The NFL needs to do one of three things.

1. Put flags on the QB.

2. Make the QB down by 2 hand touch.

3. Place the QB in one of those big inflatable sumo wrestler suits with maybe just his throwing arm exposed to keep it fair for him.

 

 

[MustOfBeenDrunk]

QB's , they just don't make them like they used to , what

[flemingd]

Ok how about block better. Payton manning seems to never get hit on either team he plays for! This is football. Tackle football. If your 5 foot whatever your going to take hits up around your head. Get bigger qb. Its the same reason you dont see 190lb linebackers. That hit although hard was totally legal for a 6 ft 6 de coming in to tackle a 6ft qb. What he should have crouched down before he hit him. Sorry that was a great play that should have stood. Hell you could bring in a midget and get a call on every play because you hit him to high or go to low. Risk of the game imo. Actually that may be one hell of a future strategy sign a midget and put him in shotgun and call screen protection. With todays rules you could march down the field on 15 yard ruffing calls as long as your little guy could hold up.

 

 

How about you go out and get smaller defensive linemen? And I'm not talking about normal guy 5'9" small, I'm talking 4 footers. No one could ever block them, you'd try to but you would just kick them every time. 15 yard penalty. Half the distance to the goal every time. Try throwing TD's when every play has a flag on your OL. You could get Hervé Villechaize to play DE and every time he sacks Brees get can point to the sky and say "ze paaaaain".

[keggerz]

"Everyone" is riled up saying a defender can't play without hitting the QB illegally...yes, I'm pushing the envelope here...

 

I feel pretty safe that people would say that JJ Watt had one of the best seasons for a DL ever last year...the number of roughing the passer penalties he had....ZERO. In 2011 Watt had 4 (led the league), so he found a way to "fix" it and perform even better...JPP had a huge year in 2011....ZERO for him too...anyone else you guys want me to check? Von Miller? He had 3 last year (led the league)(played in ~1000 snaps).

Edited November 19, 2013 by keggerz

[HowboutthemCowboys]

"Everyone" is riled up saying a defender can't play without hitting the QB illegally...yes, I'm pushing the envelope here...

 

I feel pretty safe that people would say that JJ Watt had one of the best seasons for a DL ever last year...the number of roughing the passer penalties he had....ZERO. In 2011 Watt had 4 (lead the league), so he found a way to "fix" it and perform even better...JPP had a huge year in 2011....ZERO for him too...anyone else you guys want me to check? Von Miller? He had 3 last year (played in ~1000 snaps).

 

I think "everyone" that is riled up here would be calling for a flag when the pass rushers go helmet to helmet on a QB.

 

I also believe that a lot of time we see players jump in the air and the qb turns or runs into a defender causing an elbow or hand to the head. If you wanna call that ...whatever. But I find it hard to believe that you agree with every one of the "hits" that are called roughing on QB's nowadays.

 

IMO, when you kiss your biceps in front of a camera or "pull" your jersey open like superman after a td you better expect to get blasted when someone has a chance to blast you...personally I have no problem with that. You don't wanna get hit..don't carry the ball

[keggerz]

I think "everyone" that is riled up here would be calling for a flag when the pass rushers go helmet to helmet on a QB.

 

I also believe that a lot of time we see players jump in the air and the qb turns or runs into a defender causing an elbow or hand to the head. If you wanna call that ...whatever. But I find it hard to believe that you agree with every one of the "hits" that are called roughing on QB's nowadays.

 

IMO, when you kiss your biceps in front of a camera or "pull" your jersey open like superman after a td you better expect to get blasted when someone has a chance to blast you...personally I have no problem with that. You don't wanna get hit..don't carry the ball

 

I didn't say that I did...my point is that just because there is a rule saying you can't hit he QB in the head/neck area doesn't mean you can't play defense and rush the passer successfully....I also think the Brees hit should have been a penalty and I'm ok with that...also, if you remember, I think it was a couple of years ago where if a defenders hand even glanced the QBs helmet it was a penalty...I believe they changed the rule so that isn't the case now. With regard to the QB turning into the hit, the same thing happens when a receiver gets hit...I don't like it because I feel like, "what else could the DB do", but I get it and accept it. The other thing is that there just isn't a ton of these penalties...I don't have the total number of plays in the NFL last year off the top of my head but it's probably around 32,000. With 96 roughing the passer calls last year that means we had one on 0.3% of all plays. Edited November 19, 2013 by keggerz

[HowboutthemCowboys]

The other thing is that there just isn't a ton of these penalties...I don't have the total number of plays in the NFL last year off the top of my head but it's probably around 32,000. With 96 roughing the passer calls last year that means we had one on 0.3% of all plays.

 

so out of the .3%, how many of these illegal hits, in your estimate, have caused QB's to miss time?