hrguy Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 I lost Sunday 142.9 - 141.2 .I am really POed!! Not because it was by 1.7 points and that the Cowboys could have easily gotten those points. Not because I had people on the bench that if I'd played them I would have won. I was screwed by the Commisioner. lDuring the week I picked up Toby Gerhart and something Todman (backup for MJD), as possible sleepers because ABrown was playing Seattle and AJeffrey was at Cleveland in the snow with Cutler back and guarded by Haden. I dropped Gerhart late Friday and Todman on Saturday once the pictures cleared as to who was playing. I also kept them late so that my opponent couldn't pick them up....especially Todman who would play and was projected at 13+ points. When I dropped them the soonest they could be picked up on waivers was Mon 12/16. I read it at 2 different times on Saturday, including around 8:00 pm. The Commisioner (Scott Davis' son) was contacted by my opponent Sun morning and persuaded to change that date so he could pick up Todman. When I texted Commish about the change he hemmed and hawed about it but finally admitted to making the change. We argued back and forth and he finally said that it was his decision and that it was the way it was. Todman got 19 points. None of the others that should have been available scored more than 11 except Asiata for Minn but he wouldn't have been picked up. Of course, I shouldn't have let Todman go at all, but.....do you readers think I was wrong trying to block my opponent getting Todman or should I go egg the Commish's house? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
electricrelish Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 The Commissioner is wrong to change any rules. There are no mitigating circumstances. He made a mistake and there's no way for him to back out of it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecondString Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 First of all, the font on your post is so small, my breath fogged my screen while trying to read it. There are rules against what you did in many leagues as well, if it was interpreted that you picked up those players with no intention of using them, but with the intent of preventing anyone else from picking them up. I understand your explanation, and it makes sense, but at the same time your opponents could argue that you illegally picked up and dropped those players. From ESPN Rules: C: Impeding other owners Certain transactions made solely to impede other owners is not allowed. In particular, cycling through players in free agency to put them on waivers and make them unavailable to other teams in your league is strictly prohibited and is grounds for expulsion from the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joessfl Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 Has he backed out the changes and apologized to all the teams for his meddling? If not, I wouldn't stay in the league. If he didn't apologize and try to put things back, and if he's a real tool about it, as a side exercise to prove a point: I think the commissioner now has the duty to accept all requests to rule changes. Ask the commissioner to break the rules for you today by picking up and changing your lineup for last week to maximize YOUR total points. Ask if he will be available on all Sunday mornings or accept emails to document pickups that require his "assistance" when he isnt available, since the other teams deserve the same chance even if he is away from his duties. He will balk at all of this, but just ask him you are trying to find that sweet spot on what rules he will break and what he wont. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecondString Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 Has he backed out the changes and apologized to all the teams for his meddling? If not, I wouldn't stay in the league. If he didn't apologize and try to put things back, and if he's a real tool about it, as a side exercise to prove a point: I think the commissioner now has the duty to accept all requests to rule changes. Ask the commissioner to break the rules for you today by picking up and changing your lineup for last week to maximize YOUR total points. Ask if he will be available on all Sunday mornings or accept emails to document pickups that require his "assistance" when he isnt available, since the other teams deserve the same chance even if he is away from his duties. He will balk at all of this, but just ask him you are trying to find that sweet spot on what rules he will break and what he wont. I'm sorry, but it could be argued that the Commish did what he did because the OP broke the rules. The fact is, he picked up two players, never used them, and by his own admission held onto them long enough to insure that no one else could pick them up and use them, dropping them in the same week he picked them up. I'd have to side with the Commish on this one. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MustOfBeenDrunk Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 This is a sticky mess , sometimes I'm glad not to be the commish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joessfl Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 I'm sorry, but it could be argued that the Commish did what he did because the OP broke the rules. The fact is, he picked up two players, never used them, and by his own admission held onto them long enough to insure that no one else could pick them up and use them, dropping them in the same week he picked them up. I'd have to side with the Commish on this one. Understood, but is there something in THEIR league rules (Not ESPN...who the hell is ESPN to decide what is churning). Maybe the OP can post the league rules in their entirety so we can all see the situation more clearly. Unfortunately, the minute there is something open to interpretation, there will be blood. OP, Can you post them? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hitter Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 None of that matters unless there is a provision in the rules regarding 'churning'. If there isn't a rule against it currently, then its a found loophole that should be closed in the offseason. The OP clearly states that there is a rule regarding picking up available players and Todman should have been 'locked' or unavailable to be picked up by anyone prior to his start on Sunday. If that's the case, then the commissioner is wrong. Plain and simple. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrguy Posted December 18, 2013 Author Share Posted December 18, 2013 This is the input that I'm looking to hear. If I was wrong I want to know, if he was overstepping his authority I want to know. I've realized since that he did this sort of thing 3-4 times during the season but when I asked him about it (text not face to face) he gave me some reasons. I tried to do what he said a few weeks ago, though, and it didn't work. Me = naïve, gullible So,yeah, I won't stay in the league, in fact he froze team for the consolation games Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecondString Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 Understood, but is there something in THEIR league rules (Not ESPN...who the hell is ESPN to decide what is churning). OP, Can you post them? Yes, understood, the ESPN rule was posted simply as an example of rules that exist in many leagues to prevent exactly what the OP did here. Whether there is a rule against it or not, I believe churning to be wrong. Also agree that if that loophole exists, should be closed since churning should never be allowed, it is detrimental to the game. I could never do it in good conscience, and if I were in the OP's league, I would have a serious problem with what he did, rules or no rules. And the last thing I would do is jump on a Forum and cry, "Foul!! I churned fair and square and he didn't allow it!!!" 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrguy Posted December 18, 2013 Author Share Posted December 18, 2013 SecondString......take a breath, man. I'm not claiming "foul". Re-read my posts, I'm asking if I was wronged or if I overstepped. If I was wrong, OK. But it's evident that its "in the eye of the beholder". There are no rules/guidelines beyond what is on Yahoo's Scoring & Settings page. Something to consider when joining a league. I mentioned that it appeared the Commish had pulled this stunt before but no one called him on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecondString Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 SecondString......take a breath, man. I'm not claiming "foul". Re-read my posts, I'm asking if I was wronged or if I overstepped. If I was wrong, OK. But it's evident that its "in the eye of the beholder". There are no rules/guidelines beyond what is on Yahoo's Scoring & Settings page. Something to consider when joining a league. I mentioned that it appeared the Commish had pulled this stunt before but no one called him on it. No worries, just letting you know that in this case, I think you were in the wrong to do what you did. You admittedly tried to make sure that nobody else could use those players even though you had decided that you weren't going to use them. Your words were: I also kept them late so that my opponent couldn't pick them up. By definition, this is churning, which I believe that to be wrong, and detrimental to the game. I fall on the side of your Commish and the owner(s) who were slighted by your unethical, if not illegal actions. Bear in mind that the Commish cannot go by what you have said your intentions were after the fact (even though you have admitted that you made a deliberate effort to prevent these players from being available to others). He can only go by your actions. And your actions = churning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Dick Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 No worries, just letting you know that in this case, I think you were in the wrong to do what you did. You admittedly tried to make sure that nobody else could use those players even though you had decided that you weren't going to use them. Your words were: I also kept them late so that my opponent couldn't pick them up. By definition, this is churning, which I believe that to be wrong, and detrimental to the game. I fall on the side of your Commish and the owner(s) who were slighted by your unethical, if not illegal actions. Bear in mind that the Commish cannot go by what you have said your intentions were after the fact (even though you have admitted that you made a deliberate effort to prevent these players from being available to others). He can only go by your actions. And your actions = churning. EXCEPT: if this is not in the rules of his league, the commish is wrong. Period. It may be bad form, but the commish is still wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lzrdkng14 Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 How do you determine if it is churning? Isn't that a judgement call and open to interpretation? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MustOfBeenDrunk Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 How do you determine if it is churning? Isn't that a judgement call and open to interpretation? Not when an owner admits it 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 From what I read he had a reason for picking up the players when he did, it was not a plan to churn. Later when he decided he was going to drop them, he waited until it was too late for another team to pick them up. Seems like reasonable strategy to me, and if his rules don't prevent it then there is nothing wrong. For the commish to take this kind of action in my opinion he over stepped his authority. We also are told he did it multiple times. Did he do it every time he was asked, or only in some cases? The commish does not sound very reasonable, when you say "this is the way it is, I'm in charge" that's pretty draconian. And even if he was churning, I strongly feel that is a rule that needs to be outlined, not just decided on some random decision by the commish. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wpayers Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 (edited) How do you determine if it is churning? Isn't that a judgement call and open to interpretation? This is exactly at the root of it. NO WAY should a commish, or for that matter anyone in law enforcement, be given license to interpret the intentions of others. At the time of his roster moves the OP operated completely within the rules of the league and the hosting site. Regardless of the OP's admission here, the commish did not act on the "churning" until he was seemingly pressured by the other owner. He then caved. Even if the commish acted independently, he would have been wrong for changing the rules. By the way, calling out churning is so bogus. We block others during waivers and add/drops all the time. It's FF 101. Imagine being cited by state trooper for speeding AFTER you arrived home. The trooper tells you "someone" told him that you may have been speeding, and by looking at you now, he is interpreting that were capable of it. Or arrested for shoplifting because a cop thinks you had ill intentions. The commish was 100% wrong and appears to be a wimp. Leave the league. Edited December 18, 2013 by wpayers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeachBum Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 The commish was 100% wrong and appears to be a wimp. Leave the league. Ot this: go egg the Commish's house? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delusions of grandeur Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 (edited) This is exactly at the root of it. NO WAY should a commish, or for that matter anyone in law enforcement, be given license to interpret the intentions of others. At the time of his roster moves the OP operated completely within the rules of the league and the hosting site. Regardless of the OP's admission here, the commish did not act on the "churning" until he was seemingly pressured by the other owner. He then caved. Even if the commish acted independently, he would have been wrong for changing the rules. By the way, calling out churning is so bogus. We block others during waivers and add/drops all the time. It's FF 101. Imagine being cited by state trooper for speeding AFTER you arrived home. The trooper tells you "someone" told him that you may have been speeding, and by looking at you now, he is interpreting that were capable of it. Or arrested for shoplifting because a cop thinks you had ill intentions. The commish was 100% wrong and appears to be a wimp. Leave the league. Picking up a player to block someone else is legitimate if you're using your roster spot to do so. You take the tradeoff of using the spot for a player you might not need. Roster churning on the other hand is a dick move, no matter if your rules allow it or not. Its not right to game the system so that no one can have the player. Its against the spirit of the game and should be disallowed IMO. ETA: but yes the commish was weak to cave, and shouldn't change anything in season. That doesn't make it any less of a dick move however. Edited December 19, 2013 by delusions of grandeur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrguy Posted December 19, 2013 Author Share Posted December 19, 2013 (edited) Maybe mine was a dick move, but he made his decision to change the waivers BEFORE he spoke to me to determine I was being a dick. The week before I was the 8th seed playing the 7th. Winner plays the #1 seed. #1 seed had been having bad weeks of late, winning by the skin of his teeth, and was projected to have a lower score again for Playoff Week 1. Several friends said tank the game with #7 so I get an easier Week 1 . I couldn't... to me tanking would be a dick move. I'm not a total dick......really!! Edited December 19, 2013 by hrguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 Well, to be fair to the commish, there appears to have been som precedence of unlocking churned players over the course of the season. It does not appear to be in the rules, so he may have only done it when he noticed it or was called on it. That doesn't make it right, but it also doesn't make this some kind of unique situation that just happened this year. For what it's worth, every league I'm in has a rule that any player picked up via waiver/free agency can not be dropped by the team that acquires them until the following week. It prevents roster churning which should be illegal in every league. Otherwise, what is to prevent an owner from literally adding and dropping every single free agent player just to lock them up until the following week, then repeating the same thing again the following week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BA Baracus Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 We have to hold the player a minimum of 2 days or when we release them, they will be a FA. Holding for 2 days costs a roster spot during that time. If you are willing to pay that cost, and are smart enough to hold through when the player will be on waivers past his game time, then it is a legit way to block the other owner. Leagues ought not allow a player to be converted to WW just because he got picked up then dropped - there needs to be a minimum hold time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony2345 Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 if you grab someone when waivers process and drop them, they are back on waivers for whatever the time period is. But if you grba a free agent and drop them, they are still a free agent. That is how espn and yahoo works by default I believe unless you’re using FAAB. I dont see an issue with this if the league allows it.. For example, if you use FAAB, and you managed your money better and have some left over at the end fot eh season and your competitor has 0, you have the right to grab someone you think he is going to and hold onto them. You earned that by saving your money just like he earned whatever players he got while spending his money. If it is just the regular waiver process, then technically you should only be able to grab one person before him, then he be able to grab someone, and so on. if he had a chance to grab 2 guys and didn’t, that’s on him. Some think it is slimy, and I somewhat agree, but if it came down to it and I knew my opponent needed a QB this week and Cousins was by far the best QB on the waivers and I had the opportunity to grab him. 100%, I am grabbing him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 Some think it is slimy, and I somewhat agree, but if it came down to it and I knew my opponent needed a QB this week and Cousins was by far the best QB on the waivers and I had the opportunity to grab him. 100%, I am grabbing him. I don't think anyone is arguing that this is slimy, in fact most would agree it is proper strategy. What people are saying is that picking him up, and then immediately dropping him so that he is locked from anyone else is shady, even moreso if you do something like pick him up, then drop him for another QB, then drop that QB for another and so on. Not all leagues automatically have players dropped in the same week unlocked, so if Yahoo/ESPN do, then kudos to them for not allowing this type of behavior., Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony2345 Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 I don't think anyone is arguing that this is slimy, in fact most would agree it is proper strategy. What people are saying is that picking him up, and then immediately dropping him so that he is locked from anyone else is shady, even moreso if you do something like pick him up, then drop him for another QB, then drop that QB for another and so on. Not all leagues automatically have players dropped in the same week unlocked, so if Yahoo/ESPN do, then kudos to them for not allowing this type of behavior., well then yes, if what youre saying is how this is working, that is a dick move but i dont think the commish shoudl be modifying rules midseason. they need to move to another site where they can fix this issue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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