flemingd Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 If you want to keep him because you think he'll improve, sure. Give him a shorter, cheaper, extension and then re-evaluate to see if that's actually true. He's guaranteed less than Tony Romo for cryin' out loud, and the contract is actually FRONT-loaded, a rarity, which helps with cap room down the line when they will need it. It's not like they needed to pay him this much because other teams were breaking down the door to sign him And you base this on what? All the calls you take from NFL teams on his behalf with lower offers? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zooty Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 A breakdown of the contract and how he compares to the other top paid QB's last paragraph The Bears aren't paying Jay Cutler $54 million guaranteed under the assumption that he's one of the five best QBs in football. They're giving him all that money because he satisfies a baseline level of quarterback competence that's a prerequisite for success in the modern NFL. Troof and in a couple years, Newton, Kaepernick, R. Wilson, Luck, maybe RGIII, probably Dalton will all be making that ballpark. I don't know the status of Stafford and Rivers but they are the same. Hell, Andy Reid will probably end up paying Alex Smith that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bud29 Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 (edited) And you base this on what? All the calls you take from NFL teams on his behalf with lower offers? Obviously so. I agree, he probably has a baseline level of competence that has potential for success - I just don't see Chicago getting anywhere with that. Cutler has some fantastic supporting cast members, but by the time the bears are through with him, how many good years out of his teammates will be left? Forte is 28, next season Marshall will be 30. I just think the bears need someone other than Cutler who will better utilize those players. I really don't see Cutler's ceiling being very high. Obviously, this is all just pure opinion and speculation (basically everything in this thread is) so take it FWIW, but blowing that off would be whistling by the graveyard IMO. Edited January 4, 2014 by bud29 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazinib1 Posted January 4, 2014 Author Share Posted January 4, 2014 but blowing that off would be whistling by the graveyard IMO. Wait a minute....your not suppose to whistle by a graveyard????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby Brown Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Name the 12 or 15 QBs better than Cutler? If you break QBs into 4 tiers; Cutler is probably low end tier 2 or high end tier 3. I think's it is fairly easy to legitimately argue there are 12 to 15 QBs better or equal to Cutler. Cutler will be 31 before next season and past the stage where NFL QBs typically enter their prime. He's never struck me as a QB who processes the game very well. If you expand the list of QBs with higher upside, the 12 or 15 number increases. I realize it's not about that though. As mentioned earlier, this day and age teams are desperate for stability at QB. I understand the move if the cap hit is alleviated after three years. But, 50+ million is still a ton of dough for a mistake prone QB going into his 9th year that still hasn't realized his potential. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gilthorp Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Hasn't realized the potential under which OC and with what OL and with what RB, WR, and TE skill players around him? The ones from 2011 or 2012? He did pretty good this year with his surrounding cast. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BA Baracus Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Great post. Heck, they can even cut him after 2 years with a liveable dead money hit. Unfortunately, QB's are like prom dates - if you don't have a 9, you better grab the 7's while they last, cause you don't want to get stuck with a 4. That 7 still is going to need a steak dinner and drinks, so you aren't getting off any cheaper, but at least you aren't going home with an uggo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 He's guaranteed less than Tony Romo for cryin' out loud, and the contract is actually FRONT-loaded, a rarity, which helps with cap room down the line when they will need it. And you base this on what? All the calls you take from NFL teams on his behalf with lower offers? Pretty sure Cutler was not able to take any offers from another team until free agency starts. So yeah, pretty silly to say he isn't getting offers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sausagekingchi Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Not consciously necessarily, but coaches/GMs are under tremendous pressure to win now, and one bad season, even if it brings you the answer at QB, can cost you your job before you reap the benefits. So it's not a stretch at all that they subconciously fear the unknown more than they're convinced that Cutler's the answer. Same reason a person may stay at a dead end job they hate, rather than moving on to the unknown that might turn out better or worse. That doesn't mean they think that their current path is their best chance for success. It means they fear the unknown more. But I'm really just spit-balling. Of course I don't know better than you do what they're thinking. I just don't see what Cutler has shown besides wasted potential to suggest that his salary can more than offset the pieces you can no longer afford and still bring you a championship. Obviously none of us know for sure what anyone else is thinking, but in my experiences I've never met a head coach above the high school level who was satisfied with just having a job (players are a completely different story). You can not compare high level football coaches with your average guy as they are wired differently. They are far more competitive than your average Joe and success to them is not about having a good secure job. It's about winning all the time and at almost any cost (and for some you can throw out the almost). If coaches were wired like most people you wouldn't see them jumping from one coaching position to another like you do at the college ranks. Just because you don't see anything in Cutler but wasted potential doesn't mean that Trestman sees the same thing or needs to trick himself into seeing something that isn't there. I again will mention the "all-22" tapes. They see things you do not because you are watching at home and seeing only what the TV networks are showing you with their cameras. They know if the QB made the right read and throw on every single play. They know if it was his bad read, bad throw or a receiver making a bad read or running a bad route. They actually give each player a grade on every play (even completions can get a negative grade if he made the wrong read) and then give them a grade for the game as a whole. If they grade Cutler out to be average or below he's not getting this contract offer. Bottom-line is they made this decision based on the tapes of what he does on the field, compared it to their other possible options and then made a move to sign him feeling he gives them their best chance to win a Super Bowl. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazinib1 Posted January 6, 2014 Author Share Posted January 6, 2014 Obviously none of us know for sure what anyone else is thinking, but in my experiences I've never met a head coach above the high school level who was satisfied with just having a job (players are a completely different story). You can not compare high level football coaches with your average guy as they are wired differently. They are far more competitive than your average Joe and success to them is not about having a good secure job. It's about winning all the time and at almost any cost (and for some you can throw out the almost). If coaches were wired like most people you wouldn't see them jumping from one coaching position to another like you do at the college ranks. Just because you don't see anything in Cutler but wasted potential doesn't mean that Trestman sees the same thing or needs to trick himself into seeing something that isn't there. I again will mention the "all-22" tapes. They see things you do not because you are watching at home and seeing only what the TV networks are showing you with their cameras. They know if the QB made the right read and throw on every single play. They know if it was his bad read, bad throw or a receiver making a bad read or running a bad route. They actually give each player a grade on every play (even completions can get a negative grade if he made the wrong read) and then give them a grade for the game as a whole. If they grade Cutler out to be average or below he's not getting this contract offer. Bottom-line is they made this decision based on the tapes of what he does on the field, compared it to their other possible options and then made a move to sign him feeling he gives them their best chance to win a Super Bowl. Believe it or not, a vast majority of us here are fully aware of All-22 and some of them actually have access to the footage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNOWBOUND33 Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Bears fan get what they want. Now remember that in a few years, when you are bitching your ass off. Not quite true for a lot of Bears fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNOWBOUND33 Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Jim McMahon ? I know Jim McMahon. I wish he did more often too. Good guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sausagekingchi Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Believe it or not, a vast majority of us here are fully aware of All-22 and some of them actually have access to the footage. All-22 or coaches tape is available to anyone now. Of course having access to them doesn't necessarily mean someone knows what they are really watching if they are attempting to figure out if a specific player is doing a good job or not. To be able to "grade" a player yourself you really need to understand scheme and technique. Most fans don't actually understand either unless they have an extensive football background or just really love the game and took the time out of their personal lives to learn it. If people are interested in learning the intricacies of the game someone I suggest following who really knows his stuff and tries to teach the fans the game is Matt Bowen. He's an ex-NFL player and will release video breakdowns of specific plays. He'll tell you which defense is being run and what each players responsibility is based on what the offense is showing. He'll often include info on pre-snap reads the QB and WR make or should make based on what the defense shows them and how the DB's are lining up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 All-22 or coaches tape is available to anyone now. Of course having access to them doesn't necessarily mean someone knows what they are really watching if they are attempting to figure out if a specific player is doing a good job or not. To be able to "grade" a player yourself you really need to understand scheme and technique. Most fans don't actually understand either unless they have an extensive football background or just really love the game and took the time out of their personal lives to learn it. If people are interested in learning the intricacies of the game someone I suggest following who really knows his stuff and tries to teach the fans the game is Matt Bowen. He's an ex-NFL player and will release video breakdowns of specific plays. He'll tell you which defense is being run and what each players responsibility is based on what the offense is showing. He'll often include info on pre-snap reads the QB and WR make or should make based on what the defense shows them and how the DB's are lining up. Many of the vet posters here know more than you give them credit for. These are not your average NFL fans or fantasy geeks. For example keggerz really knows his stuff and can break down film and schemes, have seen him do this before in some of the discussions. I agree with your basic point, that coaches (and other team staff) really are more qualified to make these decisions than the average fan. I get that many Bears fans think Cutler cannot win them a SB, or that they overpaid, or even that McCown was just as good. Apparently the expert being paid piles of money to make the decisions does not. Its like on another forum, some guy is questioning how is it that 4 teams are interviewing Jay Gruden for a HC job, because he thinks Gruden is bad and not even a capable OC. Well I'd say the words of 4 other teams tell a different tale than his opinion. I'm curious, do you work in the business, break down tape for a team or something. Not questioning your information, just seems that they way you explain it that you have first hand working knowledge of how teams evaluate players using game tape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNOWBOUND33 Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Jim McMahon sucked btw 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope Flick Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 I'm still waiting for the mouth pieces to list 12 QBs better than Cutler. Heck I'll even spot Brees, Manning, Brady & Rodgers. 8 more, clearly better....? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowboutthemCowboys Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 I'm still waiting for the mouth pieces to list 12 QBs better than Cutler. Heck I'll even spot Brees, Manning, Brady & Rodgers. 8 more, clearly better....? off the top of my head and in no particular order.. Luck Cam Rivers Romo Ben Ryan Wilson Kap 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Matt Bowen. @MattBowen41 is a great follow. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BA Baracus Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 off the top of my head and in no particular order.. Luck Cam Rivers Romo Ben Ryan Wilson Kap Replace kaep with Alex Smith... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowboutthemCowboys Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Replace kaep with Alex Smith... well to be fair..I added Kap because I believe he will continue to get better. Has'nt even started 2 full seasons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zooty Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 off the top of my head and in no particular order.. Luck Cam Rivers Romo Ben Ryan Wilson Kap I'd be willing to put Cutler on par with Rivers, Ben. Maybe Romo and Ryan for the matter. Then take guys like Cam, Wilson and Kap who aren't exactly carrying their teams, the defense does that..... He's in a pretty big group of 2nd/3rd tier guys IMO. We look too much at the stats and not what they do on the field to win games when the rest of team sometimes isn't very good. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowboutthemCowboys Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 I'd be willing to put Cutler on par with Rivers, Ben. Maybe Romo and Ryan for the matter. Then take guys like Cam, Wilson and Kap who aren't exactly carrying their teams, the defense does that..... He's in a pretty big group of 2nd/3rd tier guys IMO. We look too much at the stats and not what they do on the field to win games when the rest of team sometimes isn't very good. fair enough on the 1st part, although Wilson Kap and maybe Cam are still going to get better IMO. When has Cutler excelled at the bolded? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coordi88 Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 I'd be willing to put Cutler on par with Rivers, Ben. Maybe Romo and Ryan for the matter. Then take guys like Cam, Wilson and Kap who aren't exactly carrying their teams, the defense does that..... He's in a pretty big group of 2nd/3rd tier guys IMO. We look too much at the stats and not what they do on the field to win games when the rest of team sometimes isn't very good. First off you say stats shouldnt mean as much as winning but cutler hasn't carried a team since Vandy. Second you list guys who do put together game winning drives in the same category as cutler while implying that cutler is a winner and they arent. Third, since we can't say cutler wins games we can look at his stats and see they suck. 2013 jay cutler ~ Mike Glennon 2012 Jay Cutler ~ Christian Ponder 2011 Jay Cutler ~ Matt Moore/Kevin Kolb 2010 Jay Cutler ~ (<) Kyle Orton Do you see a pattern of mediocrity starting to form? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
half_hennessy Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Apparently there is a clause in the contract that allow the Bears flexibility to go after an impact defensive player and move the cap number around it is part of an article the tribune put up but I can't read because I live outside of America and it is part of there premium content. The contract annoyed me a little but I got over it the sheer fact was we were going to struggle to get another QB of equal talent in the offseason and most of this team is built to win now if they can get a defense built in the offseason who knows Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocknrobn26 Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Apparently there is a clause in the contract that allow the Bears flexibility to go after an impact defensive player and move the cap number around it is part of an article the tribune put up but I can't read because I live outside of America and it is part of there premium content. The contract annoyed me a little but I got over it the sheer fact was we were going to struggle to get another QB of equal talent in the offseason and most of this team is built to win now if they can get a defense built in the offseason who knows See if this link helps. It ref's the same article you spoke of I think: http://eedition.chicagotribune.com/Olive/ODE/ChicagoTribune2/LandingPage/LandingPage.aspx?href=Q1RDLzIwMTQvMDEvMDc.&pageno=NDc.&entity=QXIwNDcwMQ..&view=ZW50aXR5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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