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A 3 year limit on keepers was proposed.


Papa Deuce
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This league is about 25 years old, and NOW, someone is proposing a 3 year limit on keepers. This is from a 5 year league member, with most members being in the league for 20 or more years. It is totally legit from him, as now is the time we allow for proposals for rule changes. That said, I am pretty sure this proposal is directed at me, and 2 other team owners. He claims that until the rules get changed, bad teams can't get better in this league.

 

Personally, I think that is a bunch of BS. The problem with most of the bad teams, as I see it, is that they never take a risk, and NEVER draft rookies.

 

We keep 4 players every season. I am keeping Peterson, Julio, Calvin and Rodgers..... The first 3 were all drafted by me as rookies. Currently I can keep them forever if I choose.

 

The guy who is proposing the rule change will likely keep Marshall, Spiller, Denarius Thomas, and ........... Jay Cutler ( because we have weekly winners that get cash, he likes the hookup with Marshall )

 

In any case, I was wondering, if you have a regular keeper league - not dynasty - do you have any kind of limit on how long you can hold your keepers?

 

To that owner's credit, at least he has proposed that we keep the rules the same for this season, but wants 3 year keepers let go after next season.

 

This is a 10 team league, and by and large, the same 3 -4 GMs do generally finish near the top, or win it all. The last time we had a winner that wasn't one of the usual 3 -4 suspects was 9 years ago.

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I would say, using a very non-scientific method (using my personal experiences with many different format leagues and having been on this board longer than I can remember), that the majority of keeper leagues do have a limit on how long a player can be kept, or at least some form of escalating cost to make it more difficult/less palatable to keep a player forever.

 

Whether that is simply:

A. Set time limit, ie 3 year limit

B. Forfeiture of draft pick to keep a player - simply round drafted

C. Escalating forfeiture of draft pick - i.e. x number of rounds higher than they were the year before - ie, if it is 2 rounds higher, than a player kept/drafted for a 5th rounder the previous season would cost a 3rd rounder to keep - this also means that all 1st/2nd round drafted/kept players can not be kept

D. If an auction or salary cap league, escalating percentage of cost

 

 

Obviously having no limit has worked for you guys if the majority of your members have hung around for 20+ years. I know in the one league I was in where we allowed 5 keepers for an unlimited term the league fell apart after year 6 because, much like your league, the same 3-4 guys were almost always at the top and it was extremely difficult for the others to make any headway with that structure - even with them taking risks and moving players for picks to try get the better rookies for long term keepers. And this league was started after most of us had been playing for at least 5 years, all with some level of success, so it wasn't a case of veterans whooping on newbs to FF, it is very difficult in this format for a team with weaker keepers to make much headway in this format.

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He claims that until the rules get changed, bad teams can't get better in this league.

 

He's right, mostly. The harsher the keepers, the harder for teams to improve. That doesn't make the rules wrong, because the owners make and vote on them so choose what they value, but his statement is correct.

 

In any case, I was wondering, if you have a regular keeper league - not dynasty - do you have any kind of limit on how long you can hold your keepers?

1 year. But, as stated above, we voted and chose what we value. That doesn't make us right, wrong, or better than your league. We just had different goals for this league.

 

Another (auction) league has a 2 year keeper, plus contract extension options that escalate the auction price drastically. Realistically 5 years kept will be all you see, very few more than 3.

 

To that owner's credit, at least he has proposed that we keep the rules the same for this season, but wants 3 year keepers let go after next season.

 

We have a "filter-through" concept with all rules changes. Allow all changes to filter all the way through before taking effect. In other words, 2015 would be year 1 of the 3 year keeper limit. This allows people to fully adjust offseason, draft strategies, and in-season management with full disclosure. Can you imagine being the guy that gives up the world for Keenan Allen in trade only to be told you can't keep him after this year? Or the guy that passed on a blockbuster for Lacy thinking he had him until retirement?

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Our league has no limits on keepers, we've been doing it that way for 20+ years with no real complaints. We've talked about modifying the rules from must keep 5 to can keep 5 (say must keep 3, last 2 optional, those not protecting players would have picks in the rounds prior to our normal start of draft).

 

I don't agree with the "nobody else can win until we change the rules" though, we have had had various winners with one team winning quite a few over that period. Many different teams in the final 4 of our playoffs. I think the team who has won alot is not just due to his keepers but his overskill, ability to trade, roster management, drafting etc.

 

I've had Calvin Johnson since his rookie season, Fitz pretty early in his career too. Usually had a good QB but always had trouble getting RB (when I'd draft a rookie they'd flame out). I've come close to winning over that time, but have also been out of the playoffs.

 

Nothing wrong with changing the rules, but a big one like that really needs to be considered carefully. Not starting it until next year is a start, but still there may have been many prior decisions made that were based on "keeper for life". Hopefully the other owners (the 6-7 not competing for the title most years) aren't just convinced this change benefits them and vote for it because of that. I always try to think of what is fair to the whole league, not just my team.

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I don't see how his proposal is BS. You have just as much of a vote as he does. You'll just need to be more convincing to the other league Owners to vote for the status quo. If I were you, I would probably argue that having unlimited Keepers is at the heart of the league, and that what the other Owner is proposing is basically a completely different league than the one you are all playing in. That's fine if he wants to start a new league with that construct, but you prefer to keep what you all have always had.

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I don't see how his proposal is BS. You have just as much of a vote as he does. You'll just need to be more convincing to the other league Owners to vote for the status quo. If I were you, I would probably argue that having unlimited Keepers is at the heart of the league, and that what the other Owner is proposing is basically a completely different league than the one you are all playing in. That's fine if he wants to start a new league with that construct, but you prefer to keep what you all have always had.

I agree with SB. State your case and vote, if either of you cant live with the result form a new league...

 

We have a 1 yr rule to prevent the dynasty teams. We felt like every player should be at least available every other year or some guys like Manning or BRady would never see a draft in 10 years... or a RB all the way through his prime. If every year you paid a price (draft picks or auction money) to keep your guys then I get it but otherwise the best teams all start out with a big advantage at the draft.

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I am down to two keeper leagues these days, but over the years we have tried a bunch of things to try and work with the league so that it remain competitive and enjoyable (therefore low turnover)

 

With-out knowing your rules there could be a few other suggestions to look at, the kept players are they your first 4 picks, for round drafted or adp? Do you use a snake or linear draft. Do you have to keep 4?

 

By altering any of these you can drastically change how the league works as a whole. In one league we are linear in the first two rounds then snake, players are kept for adp with no time limit, another has players kept for round picked (I am currently working on adding the works "Only if drafted" to cut out the 16th round waiver wire pick-ups held for years) with a snake draft, and the first league has had different winners each of the past 5 years, with most of us being in the mix a few times over those years, the other league has had the same 3 people win 6 out of 7 years now.

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I don't see how his proposal is BS. You have just as much of a vote as he does. You'll just need to be more convincing to the other league Owners to vote for the status quo. If I were you, I would probably argue that having unlimited Keepers is at the heart of the league, and that what the other Owner is proposing is basically a completely different league than the one you are all playing in. That's fine if he wants to start a new league with that construct, but you prefer to keep what you all have always had.

 

You read it wrong. What I think is BS is that bad teams can't get better under our system..... or guys who never take a shot at a rookie. Well, guys who keep Jay Cutler deserve not to win. I think he absolutely has the right to propose a rule change. I used to be in 9th or 10th every year.... then I started to draft rookies, starting with Peterson, and since that year, I have been top 3 every year, and also won last year.

 

So, it can be done.

Edited by Papa Deuce
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New players come up every year. Someone who had Rice or Cj for a while eventually got burned. Those who hung on to Foster got murdered last year as far as a keeper goes, same thing with Aaron Rodgers, Julio Jones the list goes on. Some guys lose every year because they don't do a good draft. I think it is the later drafts that make or break a team. A guy in one of my leagues complained until he got Peyton Manning and Lesean McCoy. Now he seems to be okay with unlimited time keepers.

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He's absolutely right. Look at your roster. How long will it be before a team with a lesser set of keepers can expect to annually compete? 3 years minimum? And if you do a good job of replacing AD, you should figure to have the best roster for another 5-7 years after that. So, barring injury, no matter how good an owner does, there is about zero chance for him to have the best keepers in the league for 7 years or so. Sure, he could get lucky and hit on some studs and get close, but he will not compete with CJ and Rodgers? Nope.

 

I was in a league like this with my high school buddies for about a dozen years. We could keep up to five. I spent most of those 12 years trying to catch one original owner. He has led the league in total points every year that the league has existed. I was second or third in total points in 9 of my 12 years. Sure, I won a championship. But ultimately, I decided the league was more annoying frustration than it was fun. I haven't done a keeper league since and have had wayyyy more fun in yearly leagues, and will never do a keeper again.

 

I tried to change the rules a few times but ultimately got tired of complaining and just decided to move on. I proposed to drop it to keep a maximum of two players. I proposed three year keeper terms with one franchise player for a 4th year. I also proposed to re-draft every ten years. I also proposed a playoff system, which they still don't use. Best record wins.

 

About half of the original owners have now quit, and most of those guys never contended in about 20 years. Fantasy football is supposed to be fun. Don't forget that.

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Realistically the bottom sides will struggle to win championships competing against keepers like that but I see no reason that with a good draft and roster management they couldn't make the playoffs then get lucky. You only have to compare non-keeper drafts to see the number of players who were drafted high last year and then were major busts to see that it could shift the power to other teams.

 

Last year the OP would have had Julio Jones miss most of the year and Aaron Rodgers miss the end of the year and playoffs for example. More extreme examples would be teams who would also have kept players like Ray Rice, Tom Brady and Roddy White for multiple years only to suffer last season so it can change quicker than you think. This sounds more like the bottom guys aren't good enough to compete so want to shift the rules to help

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In our keeper league we take the top scorers for the season in fantasy points and give them a rank by round. Last year if you had Peterson, and Brees on your roster you'd have to pick between them for your first rd keeper.

 

We also make it so you can only keep one player at any position. 1 RB, 1 QB 1 WR etc. This helps eliminate an owner from hoarding RBs, and elite WRs.

 

I would counter you league mate's rule change with some form advancing price. Big Country had several good examples. It's always better to give a league options.

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We use the escalating forfeiture of draft pick which helps us keep in the spirit of the NFL. I know its fantasy but Peterson, Julio, Calvin and Rodgers on the same team for playing life would never happen without serious deficiencies in other areas. I would agree with some type of escalating value to model rewarding the best manager, not the person who had the best draft 5 years ago.

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if you do decide on a 3 year keeper rule, make sure that you have a sub rule in place about trades.

I've seen it happen where someone traded a player he held for 2.5 years. Traded him away and the new Owner thought he'd get him for 3 years after that. Not the intent of the rule. 3 years means 3 years, whether it be 1, 2, 3 or more Owners after the 1st Owner drafted him. I mean, if that's how you want it to work. Otherwise, the guy might never go back into the player pool.

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if you do decide on a 3 year keeper rule, make sure that you have a sub rule in place about trades.

I've seen it happen where someone traded a player he held for 2.5 years. Traded him away and the new Owner thought he'd get him for 3 years after that. Not the intent of the rule. 3 years means 3 years, whether it be 1, 2, 3 or more Owners after the 1st Owner drafted him. I mean, if that's how you want it to work. Otherwise, the guy might never go back into the player pool.

 

 

We have a rule that a traded player may be kept for one additional season because of that 'infinite trade loop' issue.

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We have a rule that a traded player may be kept for one additional season because of that 'infinite trade loop' issue.

 

 

 

Not sure what you mean by 'infinite trade loop' issue?

 

 

Agree. It seems like that rule actually creates an infinite trade loop rather than eliminate it.

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Unless maybe the infinite trade loop is something they are trying to accomplish instead of avoid

infinite trade loop referred to post #17 by loaf about a player being traded after 2.5 years and the next owner thihinking they now get 3 years with that player.

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  • 2 weeks later...

We use the escalating forfeiture of draft pick which helps us keep in the spirit of the NFL. I know its fantasy but Peterson, Julio, Calvin and Rodgers on the same team for playing life would never happen without serious deficiencies in other areas. I would agree with some type of escalating value to model rewarding the best manager, not the person who had the best draft 5 years ago.

 

 

No, not the best draft 5 years ago, but the manager who had the best rookie drafted for 3 years. Rodgers was established when I picked him up.

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We are kicking off year 2 of a keeper league I started. First draft with keepers this season. Anyways....we decided that you can keep players a maximum of 2 times. Essentially 3 seasons of use before a player goes back to the pool.

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