stevegrab Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 well of course not silly. Who would the center snap the ball to with no QB? duh...... QB and RB bias for MVP DUH, the center would snap to the backup QB. Would the HOU defenes play with only 10 without Watt? Sorry but a statement like that tells me you are not seriously discussing the topic. Its not bias, its the value of the player. You're not a Texans fan are you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big John Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 DUH, the center would snap to the backup QB. Would the HOU defenes play with only 10 without Watt? Sorry but a statement like that tells me you are not seriously discussing the topic. Its not bias, its the value of the player. You're not a Texans fan are you? Eagles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zooty Posted October 21, 2014 Author Share Posted October 21, 2014 DUH, the center would snap to the backup QB. Would the HOU defenes play with only 10 without Watt? Sorry but a statement like that tells me you are not seriously discussing the topic. Its not bias, its the value of the player. You're not a Texans fan are you? No Steve, I'm merely pointing out that MVP really means most valuable QB or RB. Defensive players barely get a sniff and not much less consideration than WRs. Watt is the most dominate player on either side of the ball. It's. Not. Close And no, not a Texans fan. I just like Jerry Ricecakes 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zooty Posted December 29, 2014 Author Share Posted December 29, 2014 well FWIW Deion Sanders agrees with me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gopher Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 If I had a vote, I think I'd go with Watt, simply because nobody else stood out as the obvious choice. If one QB had stood out, well above the rest, I'd probably go that direction. But, that didn't happen. You could certainly make a strong argument for Rodgers, Romo, Brady, or any one of Ben/Bell/Brown from the Steelers, and I wouldn't tell you that you're wrong. Murray is also in the discussion, but I'm honestly more impressed with Bell, in terms of the RB's. But, Watt got his team very close to the playoffs. Without him, I think they're fighting for the #1 pick next year, with the likes of TB, OAK, JAC, etc. He's a game-changer in a way that nobody else is, and in a sport where QB's are the obvious choice (because they literally make an impact on every play), he's as close as you will find, in terms of a non-QB who does the same thing. In other words, nobody else impacts the game the way that Watt does, without having to touch the ball on literally every play (like QB's do). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 If I had a vote, I think I'd go with Watt, simply because nobody else stood out as the obvious choice. If one QB had stood out, well above the rest, I'd probably go that direction. But, that didn't happen. You could certainly make a strong argument for Rodgers, Romo, Brady, or any one of Ben/Bell/Brown from the Steelers, and I wouldn't tell you that you're wrong. Murray is also in the discussion, but I'm honestly more impressed with Bell, in terms of the RB's. But, Watt got his team very close to the playoffs. Without him, I think they're fighting for the #1 pick next year, with the likes of TB, OAK, JAC, etc. He's a game-changer in a way that nobody else is, and in a sport where QB's are the obvious choice (because they literally make an impact on every play), he's as close as you will find, in terms of a non-QB who does the same thing. In other words, nobody else impacts the game the way that Watt does, without having to touch the ball on literally every play (like QB's do). For me when I consider MVP I always think about which player would have the biggest negative impact to their team with their absence. In that light I am not convinced that Watt is the top candidate. Take either Romo or Murray off the Cowboys and the team is never in hunt for a playoff game. Take Big Ben or Bell or AB off the Steelers and they likely are not in the playoff hunt either. I really wish they would simply eliminate the league MVP and stick with most outstanding offensive player, offensive ROY, most outstanding defensive player and defensive ROY. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazinib1 Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 Didn't Watt become the first player in NFL history (recorded history that is, thats another discussion) with multiple 20+ sack seasons? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 Didn't Watt become the first player in NFL history (recorded history that is, thats another discussion) with multiple 20+ sack seasons? He may have, but what do multiple strings of season long accomplishments have to do with THIS season's MVP voting? Does a Rodgers string of some number of yards, TDs, etc. count in his discussion? I agree with Grits, just get rid of MVP as it is like some other awards more of a popularity contest (QBs almost all the time, defenders are snubbed most of the time). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Didn't Watt become the first player in NFL history (recorded history that is, thats another discussion) with multiple 20+ sack seasons? He did and this was also the first season where two players each recorded 20 or more sacks. Justin Houston had 22 and Watt 20.5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tazinib1 Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Ummmm nothing? It was a question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 If I had a vote, I think I'd go with Watt, simply because nobody else stood out as the obvious choice. If one QB had stood out, well above the rest, I'd probably go that direction. But, that didn't happen. You could certainly make a strong argument for Rodgers, Romo, Brady, or any one of Ben/Bell/Brown from the Steelers, and I wouldn't tell you that you're wrong. Murray is also in the discussion, but I'm honestly more impressed with Bell, in terms of the RB's. But, Watt got his team very close to the playoffs. Without him, I think they're fighting for the #1 pick next year, with the likes of TB, OAK, JAC, etc. He's a game-changer in a way that nobody else is, and in a sport where QB's are the obvious choice (because they literally make an impact on every play), he's as close as you will find, in terms of a non-QB who does the same thing. In other words, nobody else impacts the game the way that Watt does, without having to touch the ball on literally every play (like QB's do). I have a vote* and Watt will be getting it. *PFWA, not the AP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bud29 Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 (edited) So I'm just curious, does the NFL have an official definition of MVP? There's a big difference between "most valuable" and "most outstanding," and I think this difference is causing quite a bit of the disagreement. In the truest sense of "most valuable," it would probably be a horse race between Rodgers and Romo. Neither team would be doing very well if Flynn or Weeden was under center. Also in the truest sense of "most valuable," however, Peyton should have been a frontrunner in 2011 when he didn't play a single game and Indy went 2-14. His absence made it pretty clear how valuable he was to his team. People would scoff at that, saying he didn't do anything all year, and they would be correct - but are we giving the award to the most valuable player, or the most outstanding player? If you look at MVP as "most outstanding player," that's where Watt comes in and has a very valid case. He has definitely been one of the best players in the league, and has made about as much impact as a DE can - but the award isn't called most outstanding player, is it? One thing I personally look at is deviation from the mean - strictly from that standpoint, Watt wins. He has far and away been the best defensive lineman this year, while there have been multiple QBs playing at an elite level. Romo has the best QBR, Brees and Big Ben are tied for the most yards, Luck has the most TDs, etc. etc. No one player has really dominated that position. Edited December 30, 2014 by bud29 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowboutthemCowboys Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 meh..Houston could have missed the playoffs without Watt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tripleshot Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 (edited) Just a couple, random thoughts about this year's MVP. Murray and Romo are hard to vote for because one will take votes away from the other. Granted Romo has been more effective than ever due to Murray but Romo has always been good but simply asked to do it all himself until this year. I'm not as sold on Murray because I think Randle could have run for 1300 yards and 10 TDs behind that line had he been the starter. The bottom line is that the Dallas offensive line is more valuable than either Murray or Romo. Brady deserves some serious consideration. I would say the Pats success has been more of a team effort but he has been the leader there. Without the stats of a Rodgers, Luck or Big Ben, he's the sentimental favorite. After today's announcement of him freeing up 24M for the Pats salary cap, I'm almost ready to hand the award to him now. Marshawn Lynch should get some consideration based on his league-leading 17 TD's. For a team with a supposed caretaker QB, no receivers and a mediocre to bad offensive line, he was the bell cow of the top rushing offense in the NFL. He led the league in broken tackles and yards after contact. And again, he led the league in TDs. Shut up already about how good Seattle's defense is, you still need an offense to be an elite team. If you don't think so, as Arizona or Detroit. On Watt - best defensive player in the league and maybe the best overall but defensive players don't win you games like a QB does. Ask yourself, would the Texans have won more games this year with no Watt but Rodgers at QB? Edited December 30, 2014 by Tripleshot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Just a couple, random thoughts about this year's MVP. Murray and Romo are hard to vote for because one will take votes away from the other. Granted Romo has been more effective than ever due to Murray but Romo has always been good but simply asked to do it all himself until this year. I'm not as sold on Murray because I think Randle could have run for 1300 yards and 10 TDs behind that line had he been the starter. The bottom line is that the Dallas offensive line is more valuable than either Murray or Romo. Brady deserves some serious consideration. I would say the Pats success has been more of a team effort but he has been the leader there. Without the stats of a Rodgers, Luck or Big Ben, he's the sentimental favorite. After today's announcement of him freeing up 24M for the Pats salary cap, I'm almost ready to hand the award to him now. Marshawn Lynch should get some consideration based on his league-leading 17 TD's. For a team with a supposed caretaker QB, no receivers and a mediocre to bad offensive line, he was the bell cow of the top rushing offense in the NFL. He led the league in broken tackles and yards after contact. And again, he led the league in TDs. Shut up already about how good Seattle's defense is, you still need an offense to be an elite team. If you don't think so, as Arizona or Detroit. It shouldn't matter but I'd be willing to bet that the people (media) that Lynch alienates won't be very willing to cast their vote for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tripleshot Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 It shouldn't matter but I'd be willing to bet that the people (media) that Lynch alienates won't be very willing to cast their vote for him. Oh absolutely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wpob Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 I think Rodgers will get it because he led his team to the playoffs and Watt did not. Had Cleveland beat Baltimore and Houston got in, I think that would have swung enough votes for Watt. I am not sure, but I don't think the MVP has ever come from a non-playoff team. If so, that is a tall order for Watt to overcome. But for me, I'd vote Watt. He is just so dominant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zooty Posted December 30, 2014 Author Share Posted December 30, 2014 I'll comment about all the QB backers. If you look at pretty much every playoff they have something in common. A good to great QB. If you look at all the teams that didn't make the playoffs they all bad average to bad QBs. It's the NFL, you can't win without a QB. It's the MVP not the MVQB. Blind consideration of this team or that team wouldn't be in playoffs without their future HOF QB. Well sure. Watt is practically unblockable and so dominate it's just silly. There is no one close to him at his position. The QBs are much closer. Not to mention he had more receiving TDs than all of KC's WRs combined Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowboutthemCowboys Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Its not most dominant player in the league though. Its most valuable. I would argue that Foster was more valuable to the Texans this yr than Watt. I may be wrong...but it could be argued Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 I'll comment about all the QB backers. If you look at pretty much every playoff they have something in common. A good to great QB. If you look at all the teams that didn't make the playoffs they all bad average to bad QBs. It's the NFL, you can't win without a QB. It's the MVP not the MVQB. Blind consideration of this team or that team wouldn't be in playoffs without their future HOF QB. Well sure. Watt is practically unblockable and so dominate it's just silly. There is no one close to him at his position. The QBs are much closer. Not to mention he had more receiving TDs than all of KC's WRs combined I don't think you made your point very well. If it takes a good to great QB to make the playoffs that only strengthens the idea that they should be the MVPs, especially when a dominant defensive player doesn't get you there. Like somebody earlier said ... do you think Houston makes the playoffs if you take Watt off the team and add Aaron Rodgers? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tripleshot Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Why don't they just create a new award called The Incredible Hulk award which is given to the beastliest, most-unstoppable force in the NFL. Then Watt can get his award even being a defensive player with his team missing the playoffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gopher Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Its not most dominant player in the league though. Its most valuable. I would argue that Foster was more valuable to the Texans this yr than Watt. I may be wrong...but it could be argued Really? I'm not sure that there's a more "replaceable" position than RB, in today's NFL. If Foster had missed the entire year, and Alfred Blue had been their primary RB, would their record would be all that different? I don't think it would, honestly. If Watt doesn't play, I'm not sure that they win half of the games that they won this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gopher Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 On Watt - best defensive player in the league and maybe the best overall but defensive players don't win you games like a QB does. Ask yourself, would the Texans have won more games this year with no Watt but Rodgers at QB? If that's the criteria, I don't think a non-QB should ever win the award. So, yeah, maybe they need to either redefine the award/criteria, or make separate awards (for QB's, and then for everybody else). As for the swapping players argument, that can go both ways. Add Rodgers to the Texans, and take away Watt, and I know one thing for sure... Their defense gets a whole lot worse, and their offense gets better. What does that mean in terms of wins? Who knows. But, the same can be said about the Packers. Take away Rodgers (and give them a mediocre QB), and give them Watt on defense. How many games do they win? Nobody knows the answer to that question, but I think they would be a playoff contender, without a doubt. I think Watt is that good... He carried a team with no QB to speak of to a .500 record. Without him, I think they have the #1 pick again next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gopher Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 I'm not saying Watt is the clear-cut choice. I'm just saying that he HAS to be in the conversation. I don't think there's a wrong choice, between Watt, Rodgers, Brady, or even Romo. But, if you think the Texans would actually win as many games without Watt as they did with him, I think you're either very naive, or you simply haven't watched any Texans games this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isleseeya Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Brady and Rogers should arm wrestle for it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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