stevegrab Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 no - its witin the rules of my league. I posted this possibity in the advice section and someone (not in my league) said they would veto the trade. My point here is that unless you can see the future, no one should veto any trades (unless collussion) of course If trade vetoes were restricted to collusion there would be no place for them, because I have yet to see a smoking gun case of collusion present (real evidence, emails/texts outlining it, etc.) I feel there is no place for trades being voted on by all owners, and that is what I think about every time I read about trade vetos. If the discussion is should a commissioner ever be allowed to deny a trade agreed to by 2 owners, I say yes but under very rare circumstances. It is there to try to prevent collusion, or player dumping by a team leaving the league. Going back to the original "it isn't fair to the league point" one year I had 2 very good TEs, but was not in the playoff hunt. I turned one of those into a nice draft pick for next year and filled the hole on a competing teams line-up (they had a good TE but lost to injury). Some owners were pissed I gave him up for that little, just to improve my team a little. Yes how dare I plan for the future when this year is over. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn5033 Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 I understand everyone's points about the specific keeper rules and aspects of this. I am just looking at it as if it was happening in my league. My league is not a dynasty and is only a one year keeper. I can see I am in the minority on this one. I learned something today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the outlaw Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 All of these trade veto threads are ridiculous, particularly the ones involving keepers and out of contention teams. I agree with stevegrab, trades should only be vetoed in the most rare of circumstances when collusion can actually be proven. Does anyone question it when MLB teams that are out of contention dump their high salary superstars at the trade deadline every year, to contenders, for prospects? Based on some of your opinions, that is an "unfair" practice, which is simply ludicrous...the ODB for Brown is a perfect example of this...sounds to me more like sour grapes...if teams want to trade, let them (again, barring collusion, but good luck proving that)...if you feel the trade affects you negatively, just figure out a way to fairly beat them, but don't complain about the trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn5033 Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 (edited) All of these trade veto threads are ridiculous, particularly the ones involving keepers and out of contention teams. I agree with stevegrab, trades should only be vetoed in the most rare of circumstances when collusion can actually be proven. Does anyone question it when MLB teams that are out of contention dump their high salary superstars at the trade deadline every year, to contenders, for prospects? Based on some of your opinions, that is an "unfair" practice, which is simply ludicrous...the ODB for Brown is a perfect example of this...sounds to me more like sour grapes...if teams want to trade, let them (again, barring collusion, but good luck proving that)...if you feel the trade affects you negatively, just figure out a way to fairly beat them, but don't complain about the trade. I understand but I wouldn't go as far as comparing this to the MLB situation. That system is severely broken, teams shouldn't be allowed to rid themselves of terrible contracts they agreed to at no consequence Edited November 25, 2014 by Finn5033 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BA Baracus Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Like Big Country has said several times...you can't look at trades in keeper and dynasty leagues the same way that you do in redraft. It's pretty much a given that bottom teams are going to trade away vets for youth at the trade deadline every year. You have to get ahead of it and make deals yourself. The OBJ for Brown trade is 100% legit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 I understand everyone's points about the specific keeper rules and aspects of this. I am just looking at it as if it was happening in my league. My league is not a dynasty and is only a one year keeper. I can see I am in the minority on this one. I learned something today. If I'm not mistaken this is the first time you have mentioned your league is not a keeper, in which case yes this trade would look questionable. But then the trade also probably doesn't happen in a redraft. Would have been helpful to know all along (if it was mentioned before sorry I missed it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn5033 Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 If I'm not mistaken this is the first time you have mentioned your league is not a keeper, in which case yes this trade would look questionable. But then the trade also probably doesn't happen in a redraft. Would have been helpful to know all along (if it was mentioned before sorry I missed it). It is a keeper but 1 year only keeper for 2 years service. I did mention before on the original thread that he was talking about. But your right I should have mentioned that again on this one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 It is a keeper but 1 year only keeper for 2 years service. I did mention before on the original thread that he was talking about. But your right I should have mentioned that again on this one But even in your case, let's say that Brown can not be kept any more and OBJ can. You are trading 3-4 more games of Brown for 3-4 games plus a full season of OBJ, and you also get to keep OBJ for a 13th - a definite value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 It is a keeper but 1 year only keeper for 2 years service. I did mention before on the original thread that he was talking about. But your right I should have mentioned that again on this one Sorry my bad reading comprehension. If it is keeper you need to be more open minded about trade value in the future. As long as you are not regularly vetoing trades and your owners are happy that is really all that matters. As I've stated here before, I'm co-commish of a league that's been going 20+ years. We have never vetoed a trade in all that time. But we have that power, and it helps keep owners from trying to do something shady. Had an owner who decided to quit after this year, but made it known early on that he was doing it. We had concerns he might dump is players, or make some really crappy trades with his friends/relatives. Didn't happen, but good to know we were not powerless to prevent it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn5033 Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 But even in your case, let's say that Brown can not be kept any more and OBJ can. You are trading 3-4 more games of Brown for 3-4 games plus a full season of OBJ, and you also get to keep OBJ for a 13th - a definite value. I am certainly rethinking my stance on this. It is something I'll have to bring up with the rest of my league to see how my guys feel about it. I'll use this specific trade as an example. My stance on this has more to do with how the guys in my league would react to it more than myself. As I said I have never vetoed a trade so Its not something I like to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn5033 Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Sorry my bad reading comprehension. If it is keeper you need to be more open minded about trade value in the future. As long as you are not regularly vetoing trades and your owners are happy that is really all that matters. As I've stated here before, I'm co-commish of a league that's been going 20+ years. We have never vetoed a trade in all that time. But we have that power, and it helps keep owners from trying to do something shady. Had an owner who decided to quit after this year, but made it known early on that he was doing it. We had concerns he might dump is players, or make some really crappy trades with his friends/relatives. Didn't happen, but good to know we were not powerless to prevent it. Same here I have the power to do but haven't used it yet. It's not that I'm closed minded to the future value, I'm just more cautious about the current year impact. I need to discuss this type of situation with my league mates in case something like this were to come up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flemingd Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 I am certainly rethinking my stance on this. It is something I'll have to bring up with the rest of my league to see how my guys feel about it. I'll use this specific trade as an example. My stance on this has more to do with how the guys in my league would react to it more than myself. As I said I have never vetoed a trade so Its not something I like to do. There are a ton of factors, using example from other leagues is fraught with peril. Does the keeper round descend every year, meaning Brown would be a 2nd in 2016 and a 1st in 2017? Or maybe even faster, they descend 2 rounds per year? OBJ could be kept 6 years? Difference maker. What are the alternatives? Does the guy moving Brown also have Gordon as a 3rd round keeper? So now he's getting Gordon and OBJ next year instead of Brown and a schmuck in the 13th? No brainer. I agree, in the absence of any other information, this is a terrible trade, but the OP hasn't provided any more info yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn5033 Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 There are a ton of factors, using example from other leagues is fraught with peril. Does the keeper round descend every year, meaning Brown would be a 2nd in 2016 and a 1st in 2017? Or maybe even faster, they descend 2 rounds per year? OBJ could be kept 6 years? Difference maker. What are the alternatives? Does the guy moving Brown also have Gordon as a 3rd round keeper? So now he's getting Gordon and OBJ next year instead of Brown and a schmuck in the 13th? No brainer. I agree, in the absence of any other information, this is a terrible trade, but the OP hasn't provided any more info yet. My specific league is you can keep one guy if he wasn't a first round pick the year before or wasn't a keeper for the current year. For example last year I drafted A. Brown, this year he was my keeper. So next year he goes back into the draft. You don't lose a draft pick for keeping a guy either. What I meant buy using this trade as an example is I will use these 2 players for an example in my league with our rules and see how the guys would feel about it so if a similar situation comes up I can make an informed decision and refer to our discussion on this example as a reference. I am making assumptions based on how well I know them, but maybe I'm off on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 My specific league is you can keep one guy if he wasn't a first round pick the year before or wasn't a keeper for the current year. For example last year I drafted A. Brown, this year he was my keeper. So next year he goes back into the draft. You don't lose a draft pick for keeping a guy either. What I meant buy using this trade as an example is I will use these 2 players for an example in my league with our rules and see how the guys would feel about it so if a similar situation comes up I can make an informed decision and refer to our discussion on this example as a reference. I am making assumptions based on how well I know them, but maybe I'm off on this. So, in your case, if I am understanding this, you either keep Brown and lose him to the draft pool next year or get to keep Beckham if you were to do the trade. Beckham would not cost you a draft pick to keep. In YOUR particular league, this may be a bad trade unless your team is so bad that Beckham would be your best player and thus your keeper. There would really be no point trading for any player in your league in this sort of situation unless that player would be your keeper, but that is more a function of your keeper rules than anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn5033 Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 So, in your case, if I am understanding this, you either keep Brown and lose him to the draft pool next year or get to keep Beckham if you were to do the trade. Beckham would not cost you a draft pick to keep. In YOUR particular league, this may be a bad trade unless your team is so bad that Beckham would be your best player and thus your keeper. There would really be no point trading for any player in your league in this sort of situation unless that player would be your keeper, but that is more a function of your keeper rules than anything else. You got it right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flemingd Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 My specific league is you can keep one guy if he wasn't a first round pick the year before or wasn't a keeper for the current year. For example last year I drafted A. Brown, this year he was my keeper. So next year he goes back into the draft. You don't lose a draft pick for keeping a guy either. You're illustrating perfectly why you can't use this trade as an example to take to your league, that's not at all close to how OP's rules are and has a tremendous impact on OBJ's value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn5033 Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 You're illustrating perfectly why you can't use this trade as an example to take to your league, that's not at all close to how OP's rules are and has a tremendous impact on OBJ's value. the keeper rules aren't the same as the OP's but that doesn't mean it's completely irrelevant to my league. The same type of trade could come up in my league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 (edited) the keeper rules aren't the same as the OP's but that doesn't mean it's completely irrelevant to my league. The same type of trade could come up in my league. True, it could, and, as I indicated in my earlier response in regards to your particular league's rules, as long as Beckham is at least in contention to be considered as the team's keeper the following season, the trade likely should be allowed to stand. If the guy dealing Brown also has say a Demarco Murray that he drafted in the 2nd round eligible to be kept, then the trade doesn't really pass the sniff test. Then again, if he has both Brown and Murray and is already eliminated, he had some piss poor luck with his other players. The more likely scenario though is if he is eliminated already, there's a decent chance Beckham could be one of his top players heading into next season and would be considered an option to be kept. Edited November 26, 2014 by Big Country Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flemingd Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 the keeper rules aren't the same as the OP's but that doesn't mean it's completely irrelevant to my league. The same type of trade could come up in my league. Sure, it could. And it would have nowhere near the same valuation that this trade has in OP's league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn5033 Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Sure, it could. And it would have nowhere near the same valuation that this trade has in OP's league. I agree with that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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