trade_pro Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 (edited) 12 Team League on ESPN 6th place makes the playoffs Tie beakers are Head to Head W/L record, Total Points For, Total Points Against Team A, Team B and Team C all finish 6-7 and are tied for 6th place. Points are Team A =1400 Team B =1300 Team C =1500 Team A played Team B twice and split 1 win-1 loss Team A played Team C once and won Team B played Team C once and won Would should get the 6th playoff spot? and why? ESPN says I should be C, I think A. I am the commissioner and do not owe any of these teams. Thanks Edited December 2, 2014 by trade_pro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 This happened to me years ago and I changed the rules the following season to have total points be the second tie breaker after overall record. However, to fix the problem in their current year, I did a dreidel spin to break the tie as it was as close to a coin flip as I could get. The dreidel had for sides, I blocked off one and labeled the other three with the owners names and spun. One and done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn5033 Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 I agree with A making it. They seem to have the head to head advantage and points over team B. Team C even though they have the most points lost the head to head matchup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zooty Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Looks like ESPN is throwing out the head 2 head since it's a multi-way tie Against each other- Team A is 2-1 Team B is 2-1 Team C is 0-2 Team C is out and break the tie between A and B with total points. Team A is the winner. In the future I would get rid of H2H as a tie-breaker. I have one league where we use H2H if two teams are tied but in the case of more than 2 we use conf or div record 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn5033 Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Looks like ESPN is throwing out the head 2 head since it's a multi-way tie Against each other- Team A is 2-1 Team B is 2-1 Team C is 0-2 Team C is out and break the tie between A and B with total points. Team A is the winner. In the future I would get rid of H2H as a tie-breaker. I have one league where we use H2H if two teams are tied but in the case of more than 2 we use conf or div record Head to head should always be the 1st tiebreaker IMO. In my league we do Head to head, then division record, then points scored Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zooty Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Head to head should always be the 1st tiebreaker IMO. In my league we do Head to head, then division record, then points scored agree to disagree. I think total points should always be the first tie-breaker. Most times you play someone twice and half the time end up going 1-1 which just leads to another tie-breaker. Head to head just becomes a cluster truck with 3 or 4 teams teams tied as well and you look at common opponents and one team only played the others 3 times while another team played the others 5 times. Makes the commish go and end up with owners feeling they were screwed. Division record is good assuming both teams are in the same division otherwise one could have played all the $hitty teams in the league. lastly H2H is bogus. What if they only played each other once and it happened to be the week they had half their best players on a bye? Too fluky for my taste....despite my sig line.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Head to head should always be the 1st tiebreaker IMO. In my league we do Head to head, then division record, then points scored Totally disagree as well. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 (edited) agree to disagree. I think total points should always be the first tie-breaker. Most times you play someone twice and half the time end up going 1-1 which just leads to another tie-breaker. Head to head just becomes a cluster truck with 3 or 4 teams teams tied as well and you look at common opponents and one team only played the others 3 times while another team played the others 5 times. Makes the commish go and end up with owners feeling they were screwed. Division record is good assuming both teams are in the same division otherwise one could have played all the $hitty teams in the league. lastly H2H is bogus. What if they only played each other once and it happened to be the week they had half their best players on a bye? Too fluky for my taste....despite my sig line.... Agree completely, we tossed out the H2H tiebreaker for the same reasons and go to division record then total points. I can see where the teams involved feel screwed if C gets in since they had the worst record in the games that involved only those 3 teams (0-2 vs 2-1 for the other 2). It is funny, because this is the first year I can remember where division record never game into play in determing the final standings in our 12 team league. The only teams tied with the same record were in different divisions (we go to total points as the last tie breaker, and I don't think that has ever been a tie, even without decimal scoring). We've tried to mirror the NFL rules where possible including tie-breakers. But we don't use their H2H (which for 3 teams would be as Zooty explained in post #4. Edited December 2, 2014 by stevegrab Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swashbucklers Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 It seems to me that total points is the best tie-breaker. Very rarely are they identical and it is the most logical. The better team has scored more points throughout the course of the year! Change it for next year and you will not have any more headaches! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeductiveNun Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 We use head to head as the first tiebreaker in one of my leagues, with the caveat that if there are multiple teams tied for a spot, the head to head tiebreaker is only valid if one team has swept all the other teams they are tied with. If that's not the case then we move on to total points. Makes it a lot easier that way. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trade_pro Posted December 2, 2014 Author Share Posted December 2, 2014 Our rules state the following order for Tie Breaks: 1 Head to Head W/L record 2 Total Points scored from head to head record(in case a team plays the other twice)This didn't matter in the case. 3 Total points for regular season 4 Coin flip Going by these rules...what is the correct decision? I believe A, B and then C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Our rules state the following order for Tie Breaks: 1 Head to Head W/L record 2 Total Points scored from head to head record(in case a team plays the other twice)This didn't matter in the case. 3 Total points for regular season 4 Coin flip Going by these rules...what is the correct decision? I believe A, B and then C. I would agree, but is there something in the rules (or in ESPN league site info) that says the H2H is ignored for more than 2 teams? Sounds like the issue here is you (and possibly your league mates) believe it should be A, but ESPN is saying it is C. If you guys all agree then go with that if you can edit the playoff setup. If not you may be stuck with what ESPN is doing. The real sticking point may be team C, they may argue the rules are set and ESPN used them to determine playoff teams, so why make a change. As other said, for the future you need to remove this ambiguity and the simplest way seems to be removing H2H. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sksmith Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 If current league rules/setup says team C, then it must be team C IMO. I think it unfair to run into a certain rule this late into the season (especially a rule that determines who's in/out of playoffs) that isn't viewed as "best option" and change it...you're really screwing the team who qualifies under current definitions. Everything should be left as is for this year and the subject amended for seasons following Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 If current league rules/setup says team C, then it must be team C IMO. I think it unfair to run into a certain rule this late into the season (especially a rule that determines who's in/out of playoffs) that isn't viewed as "best option" and change it...you're really screwing the team who qualifies under current definitions. Everything should be left as is for this year and the subject amended for seasons following I think the problem is with the site, and how it applied the H2H (or ignored it because it is more than 2 teams) than that they are trying to change a rule. The owners probably expected it to be team A, and when it was team C they were suprised. Because they expected H2H to be used, and it wasn't or was applied differently than they expected. (And the reason why many leagues have removed that or made it clear when it will be used or not.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn5033 Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 (edited) I am surprised that so many of you don't consider head to head. IMO if your going to use points scored as the #1 tie breaker than what is the point of having head to head match ups? If your going to go with points scored than just have every team set a line up every week and have the top scoring teams make the playoffs. For my league head to head is the first tie breaker only if it applies, if not then it goes to division record and then points scored. Edited December 2, 2014 by Finn5033 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flemingd Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Our rules state the following order for Tie Breaks: 1 Head to Head W/L record 2 Total Points scored from head to head record(in case a team plays the other twice)This didn't matter in the case. 3 Total points for regular season 4 Coin flip Going by these rules...what is the correct decision? I believe A, B and then C. Head to head doesn't apply with 3 way ties. You should have had "record in common games" in which case C is out. But you didn't. So you go to the next one, points, and C is in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 I am surprised that so many of you don't consider head to head. IMO if your going to use points scored as the #1 tie breaker than what is the point of having head to head match ups? If your going to go with points scored than just have every team set a line up every week and have the top scoring teams make the playoffs. For my league head to head is the first tie breaker only if it applies, if not then it goes to division record and then points scored. Tossing out H2H as a tie breaker doesn't mean you don't want H2H games and should go to a total points league. It just means you don't want it as a tie breaker, for various reasons. Head to head doesn't apply with 3 way ties. You should have had "record in common games" in which case C is out. But you didn't. So you go to the next one, points, and C is in. Why doesn't it apply? Do the league rules say that (we haven't heard that)? Does the ESPN site explain that somewhere (the OP certainly isn't aware of it)? The NFL uses H2H in 3 team tiebreakers, see section "TO BREAK A TIE WITHIN A DIVISION" then "Three or More Clubs", number 1 states "Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games among the clubs)." If that rule didn't apply why would it be there? http://www.nfl.com/standings/tiebreakingprocedures I know these are used because back when the Browns beat the Bengals there was a time when all 3 (CLE, BAL & PIT) had the same record, and BAL was first based on their H2H record. It didn't make sense to me because I was looking at division record (#2 on that list) and BAL was 2-3 in the division 2 while both PIT and CLE were better. But 2 losses were to CIN which don't count in this H2H, as did other games for PIT/CLE against CIN. The H2H is as zooty showed in post 4, the teams that involved only those 3 teams (2 of them playing each other). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flemingd Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Why doesn't it apply? Do the league rules say that (we haven't heard that)? Does the ESPN site explain that somewhere (the OP certainly isn't aware of it)? The NFL uses H2H in 3 team tiebreakers, see section "TO BREAK A TIE WITHIN A DIVISION" then "Three or More Clubs", number 1 states "Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games among the clubs)." If that rule didn't apply why would it be there? http://www.nfl.com/s...akingprocedures Because in NFL Divsion games, all teams play each other an equal number of times. It's not apples-to-apples here. Head-to-head is still a stupid way to word it, because that's used between two opponents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Because in NFL Divsion games, all teams play each other an equal number of times. It's not apples-to-apples here. Head-to-head is still a stupid way to word it, because that's used between two opponents. Good point. I think before we tossed it out we changed it to apply only to divisions, where at the end of the season we'd have the equal number of games played as well (3 teams tied would be 6 total games). I agree calling it H2H when more than 2 teams are involved is strange, and adds to the confusion or the belief that it shouldn't/wouldn't count, and part of why some leagues have removed it (or otherwise clarified the ambiguity). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn5033 Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Good point. I think before we tossed it out we changed it to apply only to divisions, where at the end of the season we'd have the equal number of games played as well (3 teams tied would be 6 total games). I agree calling it H2H when more than 2 teams are involved is strange, and adds to the confusion or the belief that it shouldn't/wouldn't count, and part of why some leagues have removed it (or otherwise clarified the ambiguity). This is what was causing my confusion as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Def. Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Believe in modeling the league after the NFL (minus the crappy conduct policy). Thus just been using the NFL tiebreakers and have never had any complications. We do skip the strength and ranking items though and just go to net points if needed (has only happened once.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bring Back Pat!!! Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 12 Team League on ESPN 6th place makes the playoffs Tie beakers are Head to Head W/L record, Total Points For, Total Points Against Team A, Team B and Team C all finish 6-7 and are tied for 6th place. Points are Team A =1400 Team B =1300 Team C =1500 Team A played Team B twice and split 1 win-1 loss Team A played Team C once and won Team B played Team C once and won Would should get the 6th playoff spot? and why? ESPN says I should be C, I think A. I am the commissioner and do not owe any of these teams. Thanks Is this a custom league on ESPN? Because that's not ESPN standard tie breakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trade_pro Posted December 2, 2014 Author Share Posted December 2, 2014 Yes this is a custom league. The intent was to have head to head schedules matter first then total points. Unfortunately, ESPN has other ideas. I wrote our league rules so I know the intent. I have put it to a league vote because that is what the rules state can be done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avernus Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 It should be the most points between team A and B.... so team A got it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfv87 Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 I agree with most that total points is the best determination of the best team in a tie. There is no defense in FF so the random week matchup of Head to head is exactly that... random. The team that scores the most points is the better team and should be in the playoffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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