borge007 Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 When wil Goodell get fined for incompetence? He needs to go. I find it incredulous that Brady will lose 4 games salary without PROOF of what he was supposed to have done. I thought you are innocent until you are proven guilty. Guess not.l 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 When wil Goodell get fined for incompetence? He needs to go. I find it incredulous that Brady will lose 4 games salary without PROOF of what he was supposed to have done. I thought you are innocent until you are proven guilty. Guess not.l Innocent until proven guilty is a court of law, this was not. So you think Brady should have no suspension, and no punishment for him or the team. BTW, I've said this a million friggin times, but Goodell reports to the owners, if they're happy with his job (and the billions they make) he isn't going anywhere. Even when one of their teams is punished harshly. The league is tired of things that cause controversy and could potentially cost them money. so they'll start dealing with them harshly, cheating, legal problems, domestic violence, drug use, whatever. If Michael Vick were caught doing the dog fighting thing now I doubt he'd get a second chance. Things have changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphin_Akie Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 When wil Goodell get fined for incompetence? He needs to go. I find it incredulous that Brady will lose 4 games salary without PROOF of what he was supposed to have done. I thought you are innocent until you are proven guilty. Guess not.l It was proven that he obstructed the investigation by refusing to hand over the log of his calls and text messages. As other said above, the NFL has its own rules and its not a court of law. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patriots Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 I am fine with this punishment. They should just take it and move on. What I would do if I was Patritots was have no fanfare at the opening night game. Wait until Brady is back to raise the banner. They could even use deflating footballs to move the banner up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borge007 Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 It was proven that he obstructed the investigation by refusing to hand over the log of his calls and text messages. As other said above, the NFL has its own rules and its not a court of law. By not handing over his log of calls and text messages is proof that he probably cheated? Wow! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loaf Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Brady will be fine without that pay. He just signed and endorsement deal with Cheat-Os 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Brady will be fine without that pay. He just signed and endorsement deal with Cheat-Os :rimshot: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 By not handing over his log of calls and text messages is proof that he probably cheated? Wow! Nobody said that. You're confusing a court of law with an NFL investigation and the very broad authority they have to punish players and teams. If you think the NFL can (or should) only punish Brady if they have PROOF (as in a court of law) that he did it, or ordered them to do it you're not following how things have gone the last couple years. Since Brady refused to provide the info requested, he couldn't PROVE he wasn't involved. Yes, the NFL can presume you guilty until you prove you're innocent. And you can be punished for that. That's essentially what happened to La'el Collins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stethant Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Actually, no it doesn't. As has been stated on the forum many times, this is not a court of law, they can punish the team however they see fit, which is the only reason the Saints management was not able to get their suspensions reduced or removed. As for Brady, he has a CBA to fall back on just like the Saints players did. He will get his suspension reduced to 2 games even though I don't believe he should. OK you're definitely right - team has no recourse on the fines or the draft picks because the decision is “final, conclusive, and unappealable.” I'm so conflicted on this. I think the NFL has overreached with their reaction to this particular deflated balls issue...but I do think this is exactly what Kraft deserves for sticking with and supporting Goodell when he should have been fired after the Rice/Peterson sagas. I hope Brady succeeds in his appeal - to go from a $25,000 fine to $1.8+ million in salary loss is way over the top IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Def. Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 (edited) Yes, the NFL can presume you guilty until you prove you're innocent. And you can be punished for that. That's essentially what happened to La'el Collins. Uh...this is really off base. Matter of making business decisions based off the potential risk without any facts to work with, had nothing to do with presumed guilt or punishment. And I must say, I would never trust the NFL (or any company for that matter) with the handling or obtaining of any personal information from my phone. If the NFL issued the phone they have every right, otherwise that is just a massive infringement of* privacy. Edited May 12, 2015 by Def. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 The NFL offiicial release statement on Patriots violations, an interesting read http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000492190/article/nfl-releases-statement-on-patriots-violations Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 I'm so conflicted on this. I think the NFL has overreached with their reaction to this particular deflated balls issue...but I do think this is exactly what Kraft deserves for sticking with and supporting Goodell when he should have been fired after the Rice/Peterson sagas. I hope Brady succeeds in his appeal - to go from a $25,000 fine to $1.8+ million in salary loss is way over the top IMO. Absolutely agree and it's exactly what I tried to convey during the whole bounty scandal. Only with that the NFL consistently made public their assumptions based on false data making the outcry 100x worse. The Saints were guilty to an extent, or at least the NFL had enough evidence to assume they were just like with Brady & the Patriots, but the way the NFL & ESPN sensationalized the whole ordeal as well as the investigation was just abysmal and Kraft was one of his biggest supporters at that time as he was during the Rice/Peterson ordeals. Pardon the cliche', but Goodell & Kraft made the bed, now they have to sleep in it. And as much as I think that the NFL went overboard yet again and hate it for Pats fans (I know just how you feel), I have no sympathy whatsoever for the NFL or the Patriots organization. And I must say, I would never trust the NFL (or any company for that matter) with the handling or obtaining of any personal information from my phone. If the NFL issued the phone they have every right, otherwise that is just a massive infringement or privacy. No doubt. The flip side of that though is it gives the NFL more justification in the punishment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphin_Akie Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 By not handing over his log of calls and text messages is proof that he probably cheated? Wow! No its proof he obstructed the investigation as I said in the part you quoted. That is an offence that the NFL can punish you for under their rules. Threatened it in the Ray Farmer case for example which is why he ended up complying in handing over his own call logs etc because the punishment for his crime was far less than the punishment for obstructing the investigation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BA Baracus Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 They should have suspended Brady longer and Belichick should get a suspension too. The smug jackass attitude that they have displayed suggests that they think they are above the rules. Pats are clearly being shown favoritism when you contrast this piss ant punishment with what happened to the Saints. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowboutthemCowboys Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 (edited) They should have suspended Brady longer and Belichick should get a suspension too. The smug jackass attitude that they have displayed suggests that they think they are above the rules. meh.. Edited May 12, 2015 by HowboutthemCowboys 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hezagenius Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 For those that believe the punishment was too excessive/unwarranted because there was no proof of Brady being directly involved because he refused to turn over his phone, there is a legal term called spoliation of evidence. It basically means that if you destroy or withhold evidence, the assumption is that it was detrimental to your case and favorable to the opposition. From wikipedia: The spoliation of evidence is the intentional, reckless, or negligent withholding, hiding, altering, or destroying of evidence relevant to a legal proceeding.Spoliation has two possible consequences: in jurisdictions where the (intentional) act is criminal by statue, it may result in fines and incarceration (if convicted in a separate criminal proceeding) for the parties who engaged in the spoliation; in jurisdictions where relevant case law precedent has been established, proceedings possibly altered by spoliation may be interpreted under a spoliation inference, or by other corrective measures, depending on the jurisdiction. The spoliation inference is a negative evidentiary inference that a finder of fact can draw from a party's destruction of a document or thing that is relevant to an ongoing or reasonably foreseeable civil or criminal proceeding: the finder of fact can review all evidence uncovered in as strong a light as possible against the spoliator and in favor of the opposing party. So, if you want to approach this from a court of law standpoint, yes you can be punished for not turning over evidence. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Def. Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 With the amount of punishment, I feel the NFL could of presented a better case than a 243 page editorial and an ignored demand to turn over a personal phone. Maybe next time they'll hire a real investigative company like TMZ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolverines Fan Posted May 12, 2015 Author Share Posted May 12, 2015 They should have suspended Brady longer and Belichick should get a suspension too. The smug jackass attitude that they have displayed suggests that they think they are above the rules. Pats are clearly being shown favoritism when you contrast this piss ant punishment with what happened to the Saints. I'm surprised the NFL didn't whack him too. Sean Peyton supposedly didn't know anything about Bountygate and we know what happened there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 With the amount of punishment, I feel the NFL could of presented a better case than a 243 page editorial and an ignored demand to turn over a personal phone. Maybe next time they'll hire a real investigative company like TMZ. Hey, well the NFL had "50,000 pages of evidence" against the Saints and all you got to see was a few powerpoint slides. I also just saw a report from Wells basically saying that they never asked Brady to turn over his phone. They only wanted a printout of specific conversations dealing with other Patriots personnel. “When I was appointed to be the independent investigator, no one at the Patriots or in Mr. Brady’s camp raised any issue about my independence or my integrity to judge the evidence impartially and fairly,” said Wells. “In fact, Mr. [Robert] Kraft [the Patriots owner], to my recollection, publicly said he welcomed my appointment. I think it is wrong to criticize my independence just because you disagree with my findings.” .Wells said Brady cooperated when interviewed, but he wasn't forthcoming in providing digital evidence from his cell phone. Wells said he told Yee and Brady that the quarterback would not need to surrender his phone, nor would investigators look at any private information contained on it. He also said he told Yee he would allow the agent to find the relevant information and provide a printout, yet Yee refused. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 I don't see that as obstruction. He didn't fully cooperate, but that is different than obstructing. I think his cell phone is personal and the NFL had no right to look at his personal life. For all we know, he sends dick pics to Giselle on a daily basis or has a ghey lover. Being in the NFL or being at the center of an investigation shouldn't nullify someone's privacy rights. I guess nobody has read the link I provided, which says (in the letter to Pats section) "The second was the failure of Tom Brady to produce any electronic evidence (emails, texts, etc.), despite being offered extraordinary safeguards by the investigators to protect unrelated personal information." Rajn also has provided more info, Wells said Brady cooperated when interviewed, but he wasn't forthcoming in providing digital evidence from his cell phone. Wells said he told Yee and Brady that the quarterback would not need to surrender his phone, nor would investigators look at any private information contained on it. He also said he told Yee he would allow the agent to find the relevant information and provide a printout, yet Yee refused Nobody asked for Brady's phone, they weren't going to steal his sexting picsor the best place to get your hair fluffed in Boston. Being at the center of an investigation does nullify some of your rights, as pointed out by hezagenius. Have you also forget Aaron Hernandez and his destroying his phone and other stuff to hide what is going on? That is a different degree of obstruction, actually destroying evidence as opposed to not turning it over. But both are forms of obstructing an investigation. And generally those investigating you are not going to take that as a sign of innocence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Def. Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Didn't know that...still think its a kind of double edged sword though, cause what if there was no correspondence between them or emails/texts already been deleted, then what? Produce nothing and its instantly obstruction. Obstruction in this specific circumstance seems very flimsy to me. Don't misconstrue my sentiment though, do I think there was cheating? Yes I do. Do I think it deserves this punishment, or for the fact of the matter this amount of attention? No, I really don't. Well not unless TMZ has a video, cause that makes it worse! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gilthorp Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Integrity. Not much of this is found in sports these days. The punishment is way too harsh in my opinion. I believe the fact that the NFL was aware of a potential problem before the AFC Championship leads them to punish on the pure belief this is not only isolated, but widespread over years. I don't like this methodology. The punishment should be based on the one incident in the one game, and no other previous belief or unassociated past acts like spygate. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowboutthemCowboys Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Integrity. Not much of this is found in sports these days. The punishment is way too harsh in my opinion. I believe the fact that the NFL was aware of a potential problem before the AFC Championship leads them to punish on the pure belief this is not only isolated, but widespread over years. I don't like this methodology. The punishment should be based on the one incident in the one game, and no other previous belief or unassociated past acts like spygate. I'm with Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 Even though the Colts were tipped off by other teams who suspected the Patriots were deflating? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BA Baracus Posted May 13, 2015 Share Posted May 13, 2015 The problem is that this punishment is so far out of line with past precedent, that it is nothing but a joke. The NFL derailed the entire Saints franchise during a Super Bowl window and then they levy this half assed verdict. It is blatant favoritism for the large market team while making an example of the small market team. It's total bullhonda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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