MikesVikes Posted February 6, 2005 Share Posted February 6, 2005 I believe Swann and Stalworth did not make it on their first time either. Actually Swann quit in 1982 inducted in 2001 Stalworth quit in 1987 inducted in 2001 Irvin might have to wait for a while 686515[/snapback] Exactly. If Stallworth had been a first ballot hall of famer, I'd be the first in line crying foul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted February 6, 2005 Share Posted February 6, 2005 Irvin will get in sooner rather than later; but put me in line with those that just don't think his career was all that. If you check out his #s, he only really had 2 or 3 years where he could claim to be THE (or even "one of the") most dominant WRs in the game. Not to mention I also agree with the theory that HoF voters are making him sweat it due to his *ahem* indiscretions. But don't worry, Cowboy fans - your pathetic tally of 5 will soon mushroom, perhaps even double, within 5 years, as Emmitt, Irvin, and Aikman get in; I'd lay money on Larry Allen and Charles Haley making it as well (Deion doesn't count). Plus you never know whom the Veterans Committee might nominate - Hayes, Renfro, Too Tall (if he isn't already in), etc might squeak in as well. They're at least as legit as Aikman, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muck Posted February 6, 2005 Share Posted February 6, 2005 I just wanted to throw this out. gp gs rec yds avg lg td TOTAL 169 146 603 8431 14.0 98 43 Those are the career numbers for Johnny Morton of the Kansas City Chiefs...based on Swann's numbers, Morton ought to be a lock for the Hall 686439[/snapback] LMAO! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herdmaster Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 Okay, I said I didn't believe there was a Cowboys bias...but I'm starting to think different. JACKSONVILLE, Fla. - Numb. Just numb. Last year, it was plain outrage. More like, how could they - how could the Pro Football Hall of Fame selection committee tease the Dallas Cowboys so, voting Bob Hayes and Rayfield Wright into the final six of the process and then voting them both out when it was allowed to select six. But this year, after the final six selections were read - Harry Carson, Benny Friedman, Michael Irvin, Dan Marino, Fritz Pollard and Steve Young - I simply braced myself, as if I had just bet someone they couldn't knock me out with one swing and I knew the punch was coming. There was a short pause when the envelop containing the Hall of Fame class of 2005 was being delivered to the podium, giving me time to think, oh God, not again. This can't happen again. Not to the Cowboys. The only thing more cruel than and unjust than the Cowboys having only five players in the Hall of Fame, especially when there are Steelers galore, is to progress through the voting process as these three Cowboys have over the past two years, from 90 to 25 to 15 to 10 to six and then not hear your named called again. My mind raced to Hayes and Wright, and even Cliff Harris, who was eliminated on the cut from 10 to six last year. Surely after the backlash following last year's vote this committee wouldn't do the same thing again - not give Michael Irvin 80 percent of the vote to prevent the Cowboys' all-time leading receiver, five-time Pro Bowler and owner of three Super Bowl rings from gaining entry to the Hall of Fame when he was working at Super Bowl XXXIX right here in his home state. And I thought of you guys, too, how outraged you were last year and have been for so many years that a franchise which has played in eight Super Bowls, winning five, and has been one of the league's most successful in its 45 years of existence, has been so routinely snubbed in this voting process. Thought about all your passionate emails, causing me to quickly conclude this can't happen again. Then here it came, the names. First Friedman, one of the two Seniors Committee nominations, a quarterback from way back in the 1920's and '30's who I had never heard of until now, but probably should get to know, his career spanning eight years with the likes of the Cleveland Bulldogs, Detroit Wolverines, New York Giants and Brooklyn Dodgers. That meant, in this alphabetical order process, Irvin should be next. He was awaiting word just outside this Meeting Room C at the convention center. Knowing Irvin, he probably already had broken out in a sweat. He wanted this. He wanted it bad, even though it was the first time he was eligible to be on the ballot. And the next words I heard were "Dan Marino." Nuh-uh. Wait. That's out of order. I is before M. I mean I caught myself, double checking the order. Or maybe they weren't going in alphabetical order. No way. "Fritz Pollard, Steve Young" is what I heard next. That was it. No Irvin. Once again, no Cowboy - none since 1996. Bam - punch delivered. But wait. This is, after all, Florida. Isn't this the home of hanging chads? Lets at least call for a recount - a hand count. Something, no? Irvin retreated to his hotel. He, too, was numb. Distraught might not be extreme enough. He didn't want to talk at the time, and that probably was a good idea. No sense alienating at least the eight people who failed to vote yes. They probably will have a say again next year, and God forbid, the next. But former sidekick James Washington didn't have to be politically correct. Then again, Drive By rarely was when he played those five years (1990-94) with the Cowboys. "I think it's bull-----," Washington said in a break while doing his national Fox radio show. "And you can write it. James Washington said, 'Bull----." So James, you thought Michael Irvin, with his club-leading 750 career catches, club-leading 11,904 receiving yards, his 15.9-yard average - ranking sixth all-time among the league's top 20 receivers (catches) - the guy with the most Super Bowl Rings as a starter of any of those six finalists and the fact he was a human highlight film, especially in big games, should have been a first-ballot Hall of Famer? "You tell me Steve Young goes in, and we'll get back to Michael, and Richard Dent doesn't go in?" Washington reasoned, probably knowing Young won only one Super Bowl in San Francisco as a starter and had a 1-3 record in NFC title games as a starter. "When you say Chicago Bears, you say defense. That was Richard Dent - Super Bowl MVP. "Now Michael Irvin, here is a guy who changed the way you played defense, changed the way teams drafted cornerbacks. Teams would stack against Emmitt and double Mike, and he still makes all those plays. "Michael changed the way you played football." He meant teams were forced to start finding bigger corners, guys who could muscle up with Irvin at the line of scrimmage; guys who couldn't be pushed off during routes; and guys who wouldn't be out-muscled on a jump ball. As we've sat here all week in the media workroom, the NFL Network continuously broadcasted, showing highlights of Super Bowls and playoff games and whatever else, and seemingly every time you looked up, there was 88 with the star on his helmet making another catch - another spectacular, game-changing catch. What in the world? Who knows. After talking with roughly 10 guys on the selection committee - by the way, they all said they voted for Irvin - the only logical explanation, short of leaning on the Cowboys bias, is that not enough of the committeemen thought Irvin was a first-ballot Hall of Famer. That he should not be put in the same category as a Marino or Jerry Rice to come. "The encouraging thing for Michael is he got to the final six in his first year," said Peter King of Sports Illustrated, who said he voted for Irvin throughout the process. "I think Michael will get in (eventually). "But in the immortal words of Bill Parcells, they don't sell insurance for these types of things." You will hear this theory of an Art Monk backlash, that only one of those guys was going to make it to the Final Six, and that those pushing for Monk then took it out on Irvin on the final vote. But don't immediately indict all the Washington writers. Len Shapiro of the Washington Post said he voted for Irvin, and that he just has a hard time accepting how cruel members of the committee are when they vote somebody out of the final six when the Hall will accept as many as six. So said Peter Finney of the New Orleans Times-Picayune. So bias? "(The Cowboys) aren't the only franchise jobbed over time," King said. Maybe, but can we talk here? Do you realize that in the past two years, four guys have been voted out of the final six. Three have been Cowboys. What is me supposed to think? Do you realize, and I'm not going to begrudge Friedman or Pollard, the first black coach in the NFL, their entrance thanks to the Seniors Committee recommendation, but please. Friedman-Hayes, Pollard-Hayes? Where is the justice? Irvin has to be disillusioned. You have to be disillusioned. And I wish there was something that could be said to make this all seem right. But there isn't. It's like this bad: Only two of the 17 Hall of Fame wide receivers have more catches than Irvin. Only three have more receiving yards. Only two have more Super Bowl rings, and you don't need me to tell you which two those are. So you know what? Maybe this is not about Irvin. Maybe indeed this is about the Cowboys. Of the 193 players in the Hall of Fame, only five are Cowboys. Then there is Tom Landry, one of the 20 coaches, and Tex Schramm, one of the 17 contributors. Heck, even the Chicago/St. Louis/Arizona Cardinals have five, and I know they haven't won five Super Bowls. Now it would be easy to say there is always next year for Irvin. But is there? You know who is eligible next year don't you? No. 8. And after all this, you think this HOF committee is going to elect two Cowboys in the same year? I think not no matter how deserving. I'd like to tell you Troy Aikman will be a slam-dunk first-ballot Hall of Famer, just like Marino and Young. But I can't. If he is, Irvin will have trouble making the cut next year. And once you start sliding . . . well, ask Art Monk. And I'd like to tell you wait until next year. But I can't. Just can't. In fact, shudder at the very thought. 2 of the HOF's 17 receivers have more catches than Irvin, and only three have more yards....very disturbing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Vatican Hitsquad Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 GO cry yourselves a river, Cryboy fans. If he was o great, why isn't he in the ring of honor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lobsterclaw Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 (edited) GO cry yourselves a river, Cryboy fans. If he was o great, why isn't he in the ring of honor? 688612[/snapback] Aikman, Emmitt, Irvin, all will be in the ring of honor. Jerry Jones is a little slow on these things, and rest assured you football novice, that Irvin will be in Canton and in the ring of honor soon. Bob Hayes is in the Ring of Honor, but not in the Hall of Fame. That is a joke, too. Bob Hayes should be in the Hall without a doubt. The way Michael Irvin led the Cowboys of the 90s is pure greatness. It is an absoulute fraud of voting system that Irvin and the other Cowboys mentioned aren't in the Hall. Those writers should be talking to the media and tell the fans why they voted the way they did. 8 Super Bowls, 5 wins. The Cowboy star should be shining all over the Canton walls. Instead, the only thing shining is the baldness of Terry Bradshaw. So all you Lions, Raiders, Vikings and Packer fans call us Cowboy fans what you want, but all I have to say is 'scoreboard.' The rings speak for themselves. Edited February 8, 2005 by lobsterclaw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Men In Tights Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 True, but it's not like Irvin ran around and relied on his speed and agility. For the most part, Irvin was a possesion receiver, who went across the middle, made tough catches and was one of the best downfield blockers ever. Regardless of what era they played in...the numbers difference is staggering. 686665[/snapback] You forgot about pushing off/offensive pass intereference that was never called against him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squeegiebo Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 Jerry Jones is a little slow on these things, and rest assured you football novice, Irvin will be in Canton and in the ring of honor soon. 688656[/snapback] So why are you :bawling: then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clubfoothead Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 Where you been since 1960? The NFL HoF is, always has been and always will be nothing but a sorry joke that isn't funny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Itals Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 People arguing that since Irvin(or any other Cowboy you can think of) isn't in the Cowboy Ring of Honor, it must mean he doesn't belong in the Hall fo Fame, is moronic. Jerry doesn't induct people into the Ring of Honor because he thinks they deserve it. He treats the Ring, like all other things in his life, as a business/marketing opportunity. Gotta a ***ty home schedule this year? Didn't make a splash in free agency? Season ticket sales lagging? Might not sell out every game this year? Then, and only then, will you see Jerry go on a Ring of Honor induction spree. Maybe I'm going a little overboard. Afterall, he did induct Bob Hayes. But in order for Bullet Bob to get in he had to be on his freakin' death bed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Vatican Hitsquad Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 Aikman, Emmitt, Irvin, all will be in the ring of honor. Jerry Jones is a little slow on these things, and rest assured you football novice, that Irvin will be in Canton and in the ring of honor soon. Waaaaa!!!!!! My teams owner is really slow putting up members of the team inside the teams Ring of Honor, and they really deserve it!! Waaaaa!!!! Not enough members of my favorite team are in the HoF, but so many players from the Steeler team that owned us in our heyday are! Waaaaa!!!!! There's a big conspiracy against my team because the Mass market world doesn't love us anymore! Waaa!!! You guys are a riot. Nobody said he wouldn't get in ever, me included. It's just laughable that only Cryboy fans think he should have been a shoe-in in his first year of eligability. But of course, I'm only a "football novice". Why dont you stop making excuses for your "slow" owner not putting him in the Ring no Honor (where it really is a no-brainer) before crying about him not being in the real one yet. Waaaa!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polksalet Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 Andre Rison has a whole lot more tds than Irvin and nearly as many yards. He is definately first ballot material. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/RisoAn00.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lobsterclaw Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 Waaaaa!!!!!! My teams owner is really slow putting up members of the team inside the teams Ring of Honor, and they really deserve it!! Waaaaa!!!! Not enough members of my favorite team are in the HoF, but so many players from the Steeler team that owned us in our heyday are! Waaaaa!!!!! There's a big conspiracy against my team because the Mass market world doesn't love us anymore! Waaa!!! You guys are a riot. Nobody said he wouldn't get in ever, me included. It's just laughable that only Cryboy fans think he should have been a shoe-in in his first year of eligability. But of course, I'm only a "football novice". Why dont you stop making excuses for your "slow" owner not putting him in the Ring no Honor (where it really is a no-brainer) before crying about him not being in the real one yet. Waaaa!!!! 688985[/snapback] Being a Raider fan, I can imagine your frustration for a lack of super bowl titles. It must drive you nuts not to win the big game. So as a Cowboy fan, I can take the "cryboy" comments and all that nonsense. Every one wants to go after the best and I can see your jealousy, and it is understandable. Just ask the Eagle fans. By the way, how many Super Bowls have the Raiders won? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lobsterclaw Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 Andre Rison has a whole lot more tds than Irvin and nearly as many yards. He is definately first ballot material. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/RisoAn00.htm 688999[/snapback] His stats are a whole lot better than Lynn Swann and John Stallworthless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Vatican Hitsquad Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 Being a Raider fan, I can imagine your frustration for a lack of super bowl titles. It must drive you nuts not to win the big game. So as a Cowboy fan, I can take the "cryboy" comments and all that nonsense. Every one wants to go after the best and I can see your jealousy, and it is understandable. Just ask the Eagle fans. By the way, how many Super Bowls have the Raiders won? 689007[/snapback] Ah yes, there ya go. Since I am a "football novice", it makes sense that I would let the lack of a recent Raider SB win frustrate my personal life SOO much. lol. I think I can survive with the 3-2 record without it destroying me. So, again, keep crying about the injustice levied upon the poor, poor Cryboys. Me? I'm off to start a thread crying about why Ray Guy isn't in the HoF. Must be some conspiracy or something, no? WAAAaaaa! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolv Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 As successful as the Cowboys have been, it certainly is curious to have only 5 HOFers. Stats from '65 - '85: 20 straight winning seasons 18 playoffs 13 division titles 2 Super Bowl wins Only 5 HOFers from a legacy such as that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Men In Tights Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 As successful as the Cowboys have been, it certainly is curious to have only 5 HOFers. Stats from '65 - '85: 20 straight winning seasons 18 playoffs 13 division titles 2 Super Bowl wins Only 5 HOFers from a legacy such as that? 689289[/snapback] Perhaps it's because they put the 'team' first and didn't care about the individual. or Maybe it's because the Cowboys aren't, or never were, America's Team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quiveringnorm Posted February 8, 2005 Author Share Posted February 8, 2005 GO cry yourselves a river, Cryboy fans. If he was o great, why isn't he in the ring of honor? 688612[/snapback] The fact of the matter is this. Anyone who watched the 90's Cowboys knew who the leader was. It was Irvin. Personally I don't really care for the guy. But being a great player and team leader on a true dynasty(yes 3 Supers in 4 years is a dynasty) should make your induction into Canton rubberstamped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyeaglesfly Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 I think that Irvin will eventually get in, and when he does, he should have that coke head hooker that caught with him in that hotel room do his acceptance speach for him. Maybe even that women that he was beating when he was arrested for drugs the second time. :eek: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Vatican Hitsquad Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 The fact of the matter is this. Anyone who watched the 90's Cowboys knew who the leader was. It was Irvin. My bad, Here I thought the team leader was the highly accurate QB or the all-time rushing leading RB, not the 2x arrested drug and hooker abusing crackhead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgcoach Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 It's unfortunate that people's memories of how the game was played has faded. Why don't you guys go to pro football reference and see how many TD's, rec's and yards the leaders had during Swann's and Stallworth's career. 1974 league leaders Rec's 72 Rec TD's 13 Rec yards 1092 1975 league leaders Rec's 73 Rec TD's 11 Rec yards 1063 1976 league leaders Rec's 66 Rec TD's 12 Rec yards 1112 1977 league leaders Rec's 71 Rec TD's 12 Rec yards 870 Remember they played during the bump and run era when downfield contact was allowed and there weren't a ton of rules to give the offense (particularly WR's) an advantage.......... 686489[/snapback] I kept reading down this post and was just waiting for someone to put up these stats, if not I would have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lobsterclaw Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 My bad, Here I thought the team leader was the highly accurate QB or the all-time rushing leading RB, not the 2x arrested drug and hooker abusing crackhead. 689493[/snapback] Once again, football novice, it is about how he played on the field, and if you could afford a TV, then you would have seen who the team leader was ON THE FIELD. NOBODY IS ASKING IRVIN TO INDUCTED TO THE GOOD CHARACTER OFF THE FIELD AWARD, BUT THE FOOTBALL HALL OF FAME. Last time I checked, he wasn't porking hookers or snorting cocaine during the games. That would be on pay per view. He never beat up any hookers, he only ***ed them. Get your facts straight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgcoach Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 The fact of the matter is this. Anyone who watched the 90's Cowboys knew who the leader was. It was Irvin. Personally I don't really care for the guy. But being a great player and team leader on a true dynasty(yes 3 Supers in 4 years is a dynasty) should make your induction into Canton rubberstamped. 689357[/snapback] Well then, maybe they should be putting teams in, not individuals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lobsterclaw Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 I kept reading down this post and was just waiting for someone to put up these stats, if not I would have. 689511[/snapback] And your point is.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lobsterclaw Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 Well then, maybe they should be putting teams in, not individuals. 689518[/snapback] This coming from a guy with a NY Giants helmet as his avatar. SEE Lawrence Taylor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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