The Vikings are not going to win the NFC North

[Swiss Cheezhead]

We've all heard the analysts declare the Vikings the most improved team in the NFL. Not only are they the "clear favorites" to win their division, but many are already proclaiming them the second-best team in the NFC, behind the Eagles.

 

I feel the need to slow down this train before it picks up too much steam.

 

Minnesota has some very serious issues on both sides of the ball, so I'll split them up.

 

OFFENSE

 

The Vikings have flirted with success since the moment Denny Green took a chance on Randy Moss. After watching him for several years now, there's no question in my mind that he's not only the best player in the NFL right now, but he'll be the best of all time when he's done. Check out the QBs who looked like superstars throwing to Moss. His attitude has always been the problem, but the man is in his PRIME. Now, he plays in Oakland. The Packers' secondary is still celebrating.

 

However, I don't think Moss was the Vikings' offensive MVP -- that title would go to former offensive coordinator Scott Linehan. Their offense ran like a well-oiled machine under his care. While Linehan was up in the booth, it was uncanny how often he caught the defense off guard. Unfortunately, I had to experience the guy's skills twice a year. Now, Linehan is in Miami and all of the offensive players will be learning a COMPLETELY different offensive system.

 

Also, their O-line should be solid again, but it won't be as good without David Dixon. Depth has been an issue for a while, so any injuries (like last year) and the unit will suffer immensely.

 

The Vikings not only lost the best playmaker in the game, but they also lost the best playCALLER in the game (for my money). Sidenote: I think Culpepper could handle ONE of those departures and still be an elite player, but not both. He's falling down my fantasy rankings quickly. Chris Chambers, the other hand, is rising.

 

DEFENSE

 

The defense has the downfall of this team for years, occasionally playing decent, only to fail at the most critical times. Now, however, the depth chart is sporting lots of new faces. The new players bring impressive pedigrees, so pundits believe the unit will perform well as a whole.

 

I'm not buying it.

 

There will be at least SEVEN new defensive starters playing for Minnesota this year. The only holdovers will be Kevin Williams, Antoine Winfield, and Corey Chavous. That means there will be exactly THREE players with any experience in the defensive system. And, oh yeah -- that "experience" equals exactly ONE year, since D-coordinator Ted Cottrell joined the team last year.

 

So...who's going to lead this defense? A 25-year-old DT who's been in the league for 2 years? A cornerback who became a Viking a year ago? Or will it be the veteran safety who isn't even reporting to team functions?

 

I think it's silly to expect great things from a defense this young with so many new starters. There will just be too many mental mistakes and not enough team chemistry. If the unit sticks together, Cottrell can probably get them to play well NEXT year, but, then again, if the defense plays poorly THIS year, I'm sure he'll get fired.

 

Lastly, they still don't have a consistent kicker (like, Ryan Longwell, for example ).

 

 

GO PACKERS!

[Roy Returns]

Interesting notes ... Would like Packers to go all the way, at least till they meet the the Chargers (aka: AFC Champs) in the Super Bowl and get trounced.

 

Anyway, you did not directly address if you think, or why you think the Packers should be the elite of the division ... just because everyone else is pitiful, but is the Pack good? Like to see what you think of the WR situation there, and who BF will throw to? Is AGreen still got it in him?

[Ruffian]

Interesting notes ... Would like Packers to go all the way, at least till they meet the the Chargers (aka: AFC Champs) in the Super Bowl and get trounced.

 

863776[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

Chargers as AFC champs and Superbowl champs? Bold prediction. How do you see the defense for the Bolts this year?

[skylive5]

It's not pretty when Swiss has been thinking about his packers and drinking.

 

Everyone knows that both Minn and GB are on the downhill slide and Detroit is on the uphill swing. Final standings for the top three in that div:

 

Det

GB/Minn Tie

[Roy Returns]

Chargers as AFC champs and Superbowl champs? Bold prediction. How do you see the defense for the Bolts this year?

 

863816[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

Probably should not pertubate this Packer fantasy thread, but there is another thread where Chargez said it pretty good ... think it was the "Your Teams Chances" thread ... and yeah, probably just a tad bit of dreaming in my statement!

[CaP'N GRuNGe]

As a Viking fan, and not a biased cheesehead, I have to take exception to some of your assertions and set you straight.

 

First off, the offense. Dixon is gone and may be missed, but enter 2nd round draft pick Marcus Johnson whom the team is very high one. Also returning are Mike Rosenthal and Jim Kleinsasser who missed most of 2004. K-Sauce is the underrated cog that makes the Minnesota offense go - especially the running game. There are few better blockers in the league. And don't forget pro bowl center Matt Birk who also missed some time last year. The team is hopeful now that not only will he not miss anytime in the regular season, but he may be back for the entire preseason.

 

The departure of Randy will definately hurt, especially the first few games, as the offense adjusts to his absence. Nate Burleson is a rising star in this league. There's a reason why he set a college record for number of receptions in a year. The guy can flat out play, has decent hands, and runs great routes. His YAC is also very good. Marcus Robinson, Travis Taylor, Kelly Campbell, and Jermaine Wiggins give Culpepper plenty of other targets to keep the new ball control offense moving down the field. Then throw in the speedster Troy Williamson who will be slowly worked into the gameplan and probably used initially on a few deep plays that Kelly Campbell was the target for in the past. The taller Troy will hopefully come down with a few more of those long balls than KC did the last couple of years. Also, don't forget that Daunte Culpepper set the NCAA completion percentage record breaking that formerly held by Steve Young. Pepper doesn't need a deep passing game to be successful. He's a very capable west coast type of QB.

 

Regarding Scott Linehan...Yes, the guy didn't do too bad for the Vikes coming into the league with no NFL experience. BUT, a lot of Viking fans who follow this team religiously can tell you that Linehan is anything but consistent in play calling. The guy did not run the ball enough and there were times where Tice had to call him out for it. Steve Loney, the new OC, is a wildcard. He's known in the college ranks to be very successful in play calling a power running game and the short passing game. This is why the Vikings number one target in the draft was not a WR, but RB Ronnie Brown.

 

The running game will be OK with a combination of Bennett, Mewelde, Moe, and Fason. I would have liked to seen mr. whizzinator lay off the pot and contribute, but that ain't gonna happen this year - if ever.

 

The defense does have a lot of new faces. Who will be the leader you ask? Well, it's hard to say but it very well could be MLB Sam Cowart who the Vikings picked up for a mere 7th round pick. Sam is very familar with Teddy Cottrell's system playing for him in BUF and NY. The D-Line will be solid on the inside with pro-bowl stud Kevin Williams and Fat Pat Williams - another Cottrell guy who know's his system. The ends will be a bit of a question mark in Udeze and Erasmus, but both have loads of potential. Word out of mini-camp was the Vikings haven't seen such speed/moves at DE in Erasmus James since Chris Doleman. We shall see. Udeze will be healthier now this year with his shoulder problems hopefully a thing of the past. The secondary should be very solid with Smoot and Winfield at the corners and Sharper and Chavous or perhaps Brian Williams at the safety positions. Funny how a Packer fan is bashing the Vikings defense when about the only decent player they had on their D last year is now wearing Viking purple.

 

The weakness of the defense could again be the LB corps. Cowart looks to start at Mike, but the coaching staff is hoping he lights a fire under EJ Henderson and gets him to live up to his potential and push him for the starting job. Napolean Harris will hopefully show some value for the Vikes as part of the Moss trade. On the other side, i'm not sure if Dontarrious Thomas or Raonall Smith will get the starting nod. Dontarrious is fast like a deer and Raonall has been hurt forever but looked very good last preseason before going down yet again with injury.

 

It may very well take a few games for the defense to gell as guys get used to playing with each other. The talk of minicamp though was how the defense was dominating the offense. That hasn't been the case in years in Minnesota. Pessimists will of course say that can be attributed to Randy's absence more so than an increase in the quality of the D.

 

Special teams have been a weakness for years. Darren Bennet at punter is only so so. Travis Dorsch may even push him in camp and steal his job. PK looks to be a toss up between Edinger and Elling. Neither excites me. The team was THIS close to drafting Mike Nugent in the second round but the Jets traded up ahead of them. The consolation is they landed Marcus Johnson.

 

So, as I stated before, the Vikings could be 6-10 or they could be 12-4. Alot depends on team chemistry and how quickly the offense clicks under Loney and the defense learns to play together. The NFC North is still weak enough that the Vikings SHOULD win it. The Packers can still makes some noise on offense and you never count out Brett Favre - though from what I hear their O-line is in shambles. Their defense looks to be worse than ever. They had an absolutely terrible draft by most accounts and wasted their first round pick on a guy who is no help to them for at least a couple more years.

 

The Bears got themselves a RB in the draft who could be very good (if he doesn't flake out - what the hell was all that blubbering about after he was drafted anyways). QB play is still a major question though. What good is old man Muhammy if he has no QB to get him the ball? I don't know enough about their defense to comment, but if memory serves they are pretty decent.

 

The Lions keep improving themselves year after year on paper. Harrington doesn't seem to be able to put it together though. I liked Garcia in SF, but if he couldn't even hold the starting job in Cleveland, what does that say about the talent left in the tank?

 

Push comes to shove, you gotta pick the Vikes to win the division. And ON PAPER they did make many many improvements this year. I wish they could have kept Moss in addition to the improvements, but they'll have to move on without him. The NFC IS so weak that the Vikings could legitamitely push to be the #2 team in the NFC.

 

Of course the above is just all my humble opinion. I could be wrong. But probably not.

Edited July 4, 2005 by CaP'N GRuNGe

[Ruffian]

As a Viking fan, and not a biased cheesehead, I have to take exception to some of your assertions and set you straight.

 

First off, the offense. Dixon is gone and may be missed, but enter 2nd round draft pick Marcus Johnson whom the team is very high one. Also returning are Mike Rosenthal and Jim Kleinsasser who missed most of 2004. K-Sauce is the underrated cog that makes the Minnesota offense go - especially the running game. There are few better blockers in the league. And don't forget pro bowl center Matt Birk who also missed some time last year. The team is hopeful now that not only will he not miss anytime in the regular season, but he may be back for the entire preseason.

 

The departure of Randy will definately hurt, especially the first few games, as the offense adjusts to his absence. Nate Burleson is a rising star in this league. There's a reason why he set a college record for number of receptions in year. They guy can flat out play, has decent hands, and runs great routes. His YAC is also very good. Marcus Robinson, Travis Taylor, Kelly Campbell, and Jermaine Wiggins give Culpepper plenty of other targets to keep the new ball control offense moving down the field. Then throw in the speedster Troy Williamson who will be slowly worked into the gameplan and probably used initially on a few deep plays that Kelly Campbell was the target for in the past. The taller Troy will hopefully come down with a few more of those long balls than KC did the last couple of years. Also, don't forget that Daunte Culpepper set the NCAA completion percentage record breaking that formerly held by Steve Young. Pepper doesn't need a deep passing game to be successful. He's a very capable west coast type of QB.

 

Regarding Scott Linehan...Yes, the guy didn't do too bad for the Vikes coming into the league with no NFL experience. BUT, a lot of Viking fans who follow this team religiously can tell you that Linehan is anything but consistent in play calling. The guy did not run the ball enough and there were times where Tice had to call him out for it. Steve Loney, the new OC, is a wildcard. He's known in the college ranks to be very successful in play calling a power running game and the short passing game. This is why the Vikings number one target in the draft was not a WR, but RB Ronnie Brown.

 

The running game will be OK with a combination of Bennett, Mewelde, Moe, and Fason. I would have liked to seen mr. whizzinator lay off the pot and contribute, but that ain't gonna happen this year - if ever.

 

The defense does have a lot of new faces. Who will be the leader you ask? Well, it's hard to say but it very well could be MLB Sam Cowart who the Vikings picked up for a mere 7th round pick. Sam is very familar with Teddy Cottrell's system playing for him in BUF and NY. The D-Line will be solid on the inside with pro-bowl stud Kevin Williams and Fat Pat Williams - another Cottrell guy who know's his system. The ends will be a bit of a question mark in Udeze and Erasmus, but both have loads of potential. Word out of mini-camp was the Vikings haven't seen such speed/moves at DE in Erasmus James since Chris Doleman. We shall see. Udeze will be healthier now this year with his shoulder problems hopefully a thing of the past. The secondary should be very solid with Smoot and Winfield at the corners and Sharper and Chavous or perhaps Brian Williams at the safety positions. Funny how a Packer fan is bashing the Vikings defense when about the only decent player they had on their D last year is now wearing Viking purple. 

 

The weakness of the defense could again be the LB corps. Cowart looks to start at Mike, but the coaching staff is hoping he lights a fire under EJ Henderson and gets him to live up to his potential and push him for the starting job. Napolean Harris will hopefully show some value for the Vikes as part of the Moss trade. On the other side, i'm not sure if Dontarrious Thomas or Raonall Smith will get the starting nod. Dontarrious is fast like a deer and Raonall has been hurt forever but looked very good last preseason before going down yet again with injury.

 

It may very well take a few games for the defense to gell as guys get used to playing with each other. The talk of minicamp though was how the defense was dominating the offense. That hasn't been the case in years in Minnesota. Pessimists will of course say that can be attributed to Randy's absence more so than an increase in the quality of the D.

 

Special teams have been a weakness for years. Darren Bennet at punter is only so so. Travis Dorsch may even push him in camp and steal his job. PK looks to be a toss up between Edinger and Elling. Neither excites me. The team was THIS close to drafting Mike Nugent in the second round but the Jets traded up ahead of them. The consolation is they landed Marcus Johnson.

 

So, as I stated before, the Vikings could be 6-10 or they could be 12-4. Alot depends on team chemistry and how quickly the offense clicks under Loney and the defense learns to play together. The NFC North is still weak enough that the Vikings SHOULD win it. The Packers can still makes some noise on offense and you never count out Brett Favre - though from what I hear their O-line is in shambles. Their defense looks to be worse than ever. They had an absolutely terrible draft by most accounts and wasted their first round pick on a guy who is no help to them for at least a couple more years.

 

The Bears got themselves a RB in the draft who could be very good (if he doesn't flake out - what the hell was all that blubbering about after he was drafted anyways). QB play is still a major question though. What good is old man Muhammy if he has no QB to get him the ball? I don't know enough about their defense to comment, but if memory serves they are pretty decent.

 

The Lions keep improving themselves year after year on paper. Harrington doesn't seem to be able to put it together though. I liked Garcia in SF, but if he couldn't even hold the starting job in Cleveland, what does that say about the talent left in the tank?

 

Push comes to shove, you gotta pick the Vikes to win the division. And ON PAPER they did make many many improvements this year. I wish they could have kept Moss in addition to the improvements, but they'll have to move on without him. The NFC IS so weak that the Vikings could legitamitely push to be the #2 team in the NFC.

 

Of course the above is just all my humble opinion. I could be wrong. But probably not. 

 

863823[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

 

I concur.

[Chavez]

I think the gnashing of teeth about the OL is way overplayed; sure there are issues with Klemm and O'Dwyer, but the fact is that you still have 3 Pro Bowl-level players in Flanagan, Clifton, and Tauscher. If you're going to have to fill holes on the OL, guard is where you want it to happen (don't get me wrong, Rivera was a warrior and Wahle was one of the top 2 or 3 OGs in the league - but they still played the least important position on the OL).

 

Javon Walker's holdout is more troubling, but Driver is darn good when he's healthy - let's not forget that his '02 season was almost as good as his '04. Ferguson is solid but injury-prone, so if Walker holds out, you've gotta hope that Terrance Murphy or Craig Bragg step up very quickly. Even so, if WR depth is an issue, you've got a terrific stable of RBs to lean on. The offense isn't the problem....

 

...the defense is. I think that GB's most essential move of the offseason was getting Jim Bates in there - while he may not be able to overcome the absence of playmakers, he's definitely a tremendous upgrade over Slowik, and should have enough sway to buck Sherman's tendencies (it came out during Feb/March that the GB defensive staff would chuck the gameplan they spent all week installing on game days -whether due to Sherman or Slowik wasn't made clear; the players really weren't happy with the state of affairs). As I see it, GB has 3 guys who can be called "difference-makers' - Al Harris, KGB, and Grady Jackson. Bates needs guys like Barnett, some/any of the young who-dat DLs, and any of the safeties to step up to the plate and deliver.

[TecmoBeast]

Scott Linehan didn't find enough ways to get the ball in Randy Moss's hands in my opinion. Randy Moss was a decoy in his system too often. Granted it's great to take what defenses are giving you. It's the smart thing to do on a mediocre offenses, but when you have a player with that much gamebreaker ability. Man, you gots to FEED SEYMOUR! Linehan will suck balls in Miami, he ain't creative, we all could be good O coordinators in Minnesota fellas.

[Swiss Cheezhead]

As a Viking fan, and not a biased cheesehead, I have to take exception to some of your assertions and set you straight.

 

 

That just sounded funny to me -- stating yourself as a Vikings fan and then, seemingly, using is as evidence that you're not biased.

 

First off, the offense. Dixon is gone and may be missed, but enter 2nd round draft pick Marcus Johnson whom the team is very high one. Also returning are Mike Rosenthal and Jim Kleinsasser who missed most of 2004. K-Sauce is the underrated cog that makes the Minnesota offense go - especially the running game. There are few better blockers in the league. And don't forget pro bowl center Matt Birk who also missed some time last year. The team is hopeful now that not only will he not miss anytime in the regular season, but he may be back for the entire preseason.

 

Well, Marcus Johnson will be a very good player, but I'm not so sure about this year. I think he'll need to put on another 30 pounds or so before he's meaty enough to hold his own against Grady Jackson, Shaun Rogers, et. al. Still, my point was that depth was and is lacking on the Vikes' O-line. The starters aren't exactly bastions of youth and/or health, so I'm sure you'd feel a lot better if you guys had some adequate backups hanging around.

 

And although I like Kleinsasser as a very versatile H-back type, he's not an elite blocker. He'll definitely help, but you're going a little overboard.

 

In the end, it will be the success or failure of Jimmy K and the O-line that determine the story for Minnesota's offense this year. Without Moss, the receivers will need some extra time to get open and, of course, the running game will be the focus this year. If the O-line stays healthy, I think the Vikes will remain in the top half of the league's offenses (10-12 range). However, I don't believe the O-line will stay healthy, and as soon as Adam Goldberg has to play, Culpepper will be running for his life.

 

The departure of Randy will definately hurt, especially the first few games, as the offense adjusts to his absence. Nate Burleson is a rising star in this league. There's a reason why he set a college record for number of receptions in a year. The guy can flat out play, has decent hands, and runs great routes. His YAC is also very good. Marcus Robinson, Travis Taylor, Kelly Campbell, and Jermaine Wiggins give Culpepper plenty of other targets to keep the new ball control offense moving down the field. Then throw in the speedster Troy Williamson who will be slowly worked into the gameplan and probably used initially on a few deep plays that Kelly Campbell was the target for in the past. The taller Troy will hopefully come down with a few more of those long balls than KC did the last couple of years. Also, don't forget that Daunte Culpepper set the NCAA completion percentage record breaking that formerly held by Steve Young. Pepper doesn't need a deep passing game to be successful. He's a very capable west coast type of QB.

 

I'm still not sold on Burleson being a "star" in the league. He'll probably be one of the better #2 receivers in the game, but he's not big or fast enough to be elite. To be honest, he reminds me of Donald Driver, but he's slower and can't jump as high.

 

Still, I don't mean to criticize the group of pass-catchers in Minnesota -- it's solid as a whole. It's just an issue of learning a completely different system. Your two best players are Burleson (2 years of experience) and Williamson (rookie), and ALL of the WRs will have a learning curve under Loney. That's going to hurt the offense.

 

Also, I agree with you about Culpepper -- he's a great QB. Extremely accurate, excellent arm strength. His weakness used to be decision-making and fumbling, which are often closely linked. If the O-line is hurt and struggling or if the WRs aren't running the right routes (new system) or if Bennett isn't keeping the defense honest, then I could easily see Culpepper's numbers take a big hit. 25 TDs wouldn't surprise me, but there's no way he approaches 39 again. Also, expect plenty more INTs and fumbles.

 

Regarding Scott Linehan...Yes, the guy didn't do too bad for the Vikes coming into the league with no NFL experience. BUT, a lot of Viking fans who follow this team religiously can tell you that Linehan is anything but consistent in play calling. The guy did not run the ball enough and there were times where Tice had to call him out for it. Steve Loney, the new OC, is a wildcard. He's known in the college ranks to be very successful in play calling a power running game and the short passing game. This is why the Vikings number one target in the draft was not a WR, but RB Ronnie Brown.

 

Well, I don't know if Linehan ran the ball enough or not, but I think his results speak for themselves. The success in the running game was starting to remind me of the Broncos -- just plug 'n' play. In truth, the passing game WAS more impressive, simply because he took a lot of risks, but they were the right risks. He'd anticipate a blitz, the blitz would come, I'd see Moe W standing right there waiting for it, then I'd see that slow, lean-back motion Culpepper does when he's about to heave it 50 yards, and I'd just shake my head. The guy is a very talented OC and y'all are going to miss him. You just can't convince me that Loney can equal Linehan's success.

 

The running game will be OK with a combination of Bennett, Mewelde, Moe, and Fason. I would have liked to seen mr. whizzinator lay off the pot and contribute, but that ain't gonna happen this year - if ever.

 

Agreed -- depending on the O-line's health.

 

The defense does have a lot of new faces. Who will be the leader you ask? Well, it's hard to say but it very well could be MLB Sam Cowart who the Vikings picked up for a mere 7th round pick. Sam is very familar with Teddy Cottrell's system playing for him in BUF and NY. The D-Line will be solid on the inside with pro-bowl stud Kevin Williams and Fat Pat Williams - another Cottrell guy who know's his system. The ends will be a bit of a question mark in Udeze and Erasmus, but both have loads of potential. Word out of mini-camp was the Vikings haven't seen such speed/moves at DE in Erasmus James since Chris Doleman. We shall see. Udeze will be healthier now this year with his shoulder problems hopefully a thing of the past. The secondary should be very solid with Smoot and Winfield at the corners and Sharper and Chavous or perhaps Brian Williams at the safety positions. Funny how a Packer fan is bashing the Vikings defense when about the only decent player they had on their D last year is now wearing Viking purple.

 

The weakness of the defense could again be the LB corps. Cowart looks to start at Mike, but the coaching staff is hoping he lights a fire under EJ Henderson and gets him to live up to his potential and push him for the starting job. Napolean Harris will hopefully show some value for the Vikes as part of the Moss trade. On the other side, i'm not sure if Dontarrious Thomas or Raonall Smith will get the starting nod. Dontarrious is fast like a deer and Raonall has been hurt forever but looked very good last preseason before going down yet again with injury.

 

Cowart was definitely good value for a 7th-rounder. Unbelievable, in fact. But you can't expect him to be the leader of the defense, especially if he might not even start. If there's any question about whether EJ should be in the game, not many longer-tenured Vikes are going to be happy getting lessons from Cowart in practice. Plus, Cowart will have to play well, which is about a 50/50 proposition.

 

Secondly, you can have that traitorous a-hole, Sharper. He hit the backside of his career last year and still got a fat contract for it. Good luck getting him to play like he's 25 again. Y'all need to worry about Chavous.

 

It may very well take a few games for the defense to gell as guys get used to playing with each other. The talk of minicamp though was how the defense was dominating the offense. That hasn't been the case in years in Minnesota. Pessimists will of course say that can be attributed to Randy's absence more so than an increase in the quality of the D.

 

Question: if it takes a few games for the defense to gel and the Vikings are destined to finish the season 3-7, how many wins can Minnesota rack up in Weeks 4, 5, and 6?

 

As for putting your defense and the word "dominating" in the same sentence, you can count me as a pessimist. I'm not surprised that the offense is looking weak in mini-camps. Those guys still have a lot to learn on both sides of the ball, so I'm sure the superior overall talent of the D is winning out most of the time.

 

Special teams have been a weakness for years. Darren Bennet at punter is only so so. Travis Dorsch may even push him in camp and steal his job. PK looks to be a toss up between Edinger and Elling. Neither excites me. The team was THIS close to drafting Mike Nugent in the second round but the Jets traded up ahead of them. The consolation is they landed Marcus Johnson.

 

Exactly.

 

So, as I stated before, the Vikings could be 6-10 or they could be 12-4. Alot depends on team chemistry and how quickly the offense clicks under Loney and the defense learns to play together. The NFC North is still weak enough that the Vikings SHOULD win it. The Packers can still makes some noise on offense and you never count out Brett Favre - though from what I hear their O-line is in shambles. Their defense looks to be worse than ever. They had an absolutely terrible draft by most accounts and wasted their first round pick on a guy who is no help to them for at least a couple more years.

 

6-10 sounds about right for the Vikes.

 

As for my team, the O-line argument is really getting tired. Even without adding Klemm and O'Dwyer, the Packers had THREE guys capable of being solid NFL guards: Kevin Barry, Grey Ruegamer, and Scott Wells. THAT'S the kind of depth I like and that's why Minnesota's line is dicey.

 

Yes, our defense looks to be worse than ever. Fortunately, it can't look MUCH worse than it did last year and we now have a REAL defensive coordinator. If Jim Bates gets his unit in the league's top 20, the offense can certainly take care of the rest. If he somehow gets it near the top-12 range (unlikely), we'll be challenging for the NFC crown.

 

The Bears got themselves a RB in the draft who could be very good (if he doesn't flake out - what the hell was all that blubbering about after he was drafted anyways). QB play is still a major question though. What good is old man Muhammy if he has no QB to get him the ball? I don't know enough about their defense to comment, but if memory serves they are pretty decent.

 

The Bears offense is going to be terrible. Another O-line that's just waiting for an injury or three. The receivers are terrible and I have a feeling Muhammad post-fat-contract will be different that Muhammad playing-for-fat-contract. Bobby Wade, step right up.

 

The Lions keep improving themselves year after year on paper. Harrington doesn't seem to be able to put it together though. I liked Garcia in SF, but if he couldn't even hold the starting job in Cleveland, what does that say about the talent left in the tank?

 

I don't know what to say about the Lions. They just don't play like winners. Maybe it's the coaching staff, but they just don't seem like the kind of team that could sweep the Packers or the Vikings in the season series.

 

Push comes to shove, you gotta pick the Vikes to win the division. And ON PAPER they did make many many improvements this year. I wish they could have kept Moss in addition to the improvements, but they'll have to move on without him. The NFC IS so weak that the Vikings could legitamitely push to be the #2 team in the NFC.

 

I don't gotta pick the Vikes to do anything except CHOKE. Will I be surprised if the Vikings go 12-4? Only mildly. They certainly have the talent to do so. However, this isn't the NBA. Pro Football is a coaches game. Success on the field is a direct product of players being prepared and acting/reacting properly. To me, that's a lot to ask of the Vikings when you consider all the changes.

Edited July 4, 2005 by Swiss Cheezhead

[Swiss Cheezhead]

Hmm...for some reason the UBB code isn't working for quoted segments, but is working for emoticons. (<--see?)

[Chessmaster]

It doesn't matter who wins the NFC North; all 4 teams have major flaws.

 

Minnesota has lost its best player in Moss, will be learning a totally new offense, and I'm not convinced Culpepper can carry this team without Moss. And the efense won't be that good either.

 

The Packers still have a good offense, but have some new o-line holes that could be problematic. And the defense is still as bad as ever.

 

The Lions have some good young players on both sides of tha ball. The problem?? Joey Harrington has stunk it up so far. He will hold the entire team back.

 

The Bears have an overachieving defense. If Grossman can stay healthy, they could still push for a playoff spot.

 

Bottom Line: The Eagles and whoever wins the NFC South will meet in the NFC Championship game again. The West and North suck hard. And then the AFC winner will destroy the NFC winner in the Super Bowl. It really doesn't matter who wins that division.

[MikesVikes]

Don't hold your breath on Chris Chambers becoming a top 5 receiver this year. Even if the Vikings were not to win the division this year, what makes you think that the Packers would be crowned the division champs?

 

Sorry but the Packers were the odd team out when all the Vikes, Bears, and Lions were out improving their teams.

[MikesVikes]

The Packers have lost G Marko Rivera and G Mike Wahle. Their replacements aren't considered even being close to the same talent. The top receiver hasn't been traded away, he's holding out because he wants more money. Brett Favre has been scolding his players for not being in camp while he's been sitting on his couch eating chips and drinking beer. Players could resent that. Yes, I see wonderful things in Packerland for this year.

Edited July 4, 2005 by MikesVikes

[MikesVikes]

 

Who's going to teach Burleson about the Packers?

[MikesVikes]

It's not pretty when Swiss has been thinking about his packers and drinking.

 

Everyone knows that both Minn and GB are on the downhill slide and Detroit is on the uphill swing. Final standings for the top three in that div:

 

Det

GB/Minn Tie

 

863819[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

What downhill slide? We're not talking about beer bellies on 85 year olds that drive around in hippy busses ya know.

 

We're talking about a team that has improved themselves more than anyone else has during the offseason. Exit Randy Moss, enter Paul Edinger, Ciatrick Fason, Troy Williamson, Erasmus James, Marcus Johnson, Dustin Fox, Brad Johnson, Sam Cowart, Travis Taylor, Darren Sharper, Fred Smoot, Pat Williams, Napoleon Harris, Mike Rosenthal, and Jim Kleinsasser.

 

The Vikes have one of the best DL's in the business. That makes their DB's even better than already are. Make no mistake. The linebacking corps will be better than they have been in a long time. It's actually going to be fun to see the defense line up and play for a change.

[Puddy]

Everyone knows that both Minn and GB are on the downhill slide and Detroit is on the uphill swing. Final standings for the top three in that div:

 

Det

GB/Minn Tie

 

863819[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

And don't forget Minnesota has a ticket scalping dufus coaching the team. Finally someone in the division that makes Wayne Fontes look like a genius.

[CaP'N GRuNGe]

I'd like to clarify one thing about the offense. It's not like an entire new scheme is being implemented. Loney has been with the team for a while and there will still be ALOT of continuity with the playbook. This offense has been around for a long time - back to the Denny Green days - and I doubt much changes other than the percentages of run / pass plays to a bit more of a balanced approach.

[MikesVikes]

Look at the Odds to win each Division

[CaP'N GRuNGe]

Here's a new development. I had heard the team was concerned about Loney juggling the O-line and playcalling:

 

-- Loney May Not Call Plays --

Mon Jul 4, 2005 --from FFMastermind.com

 

FFMastermind.com senior fantasy writer and Vikings Update correspondent John Holler reports when the Vikings lost OC Scott Linehan to the Dolphins this off-season, there was quick speculation that the team would go out after an established NFL coordinator or one of the hot college coaches looking to move into the NFL. Instead HC Mike Tice anointed Steve Loney, his offensive line coach, to the position. Loney retains his job coaching the O-line, but is also expected to come up with game plans from week to week and do the play calling on Sunday. However, don't expect that to last very long. Holler has been told that, once the season begins, don't be surprised to see quarterback coach Rich Olson calling the plays or even Tice himself. The team plans to use the preseason to see if Loney can effectively juggle the day to day grind as line coach with the increased responsibility of overseeing the entire offense. While it sounds good on paper now, don't expect it to last.

 

[BigTen]

This title of this thread is true, because the LIONS will win the North

 

Seriously, the North is the Vikes to lose IMHO. GB fans need to come to their senses this year. They are the only team that did not get better through free agency/draft. I think the division will go as follows: Vikes, Lions, Pack, Da Bears.

 

No direspect to Pack fans but things are coming to an end in GB.

Edited July 4, 2005 by BigTen

[Swiss Cheezhead]

The Packers have lost G Marko Rivera and G Mike Wahle.  Their replacements aren't considered even being close to the same talent.  The top receiver hasn't been traded away, he's holding out because he wants more money.  Brett Favre has been scolding his players for not being in camp while he's been sitting on his couch eating chips and drinking beer.  Players could resent that.  Yes, I see wonderful things in Packerland for this year. 

 

864159[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

to myself: "Why am I responding to a post from MikesVikes?" Oh, well...here goes.

 

Stop talking about us losing Rivera and Wahle. Nobody knew their names when they were drafted; they were developed by our outstanding O-line coach, Larry Beightol. In case you haven't noticed, we also lost Adam Timmerman a while ago and we seemed to do all right afterward. Green Bay has been an O-line factory for a long time and there's no reason to think that's going to stop. Just because you haven't heard of Ruegamer, Barry, or Wells, doesn't mean they're not talented.

 

Javon Walker isn't going to miss any games. I've listened to just about everything he's said since he began skipping OTAs and nothing has led me to believe that he's even going to miss training camp.

 

Finally, Favre hasn't been sitting on the couch, eating chips, and drinking beer. He's been working out more than he has in several years, he's dropped weight, and gained strength. Everyone who's seen him has said he's in better shape now than he has been since the mid-90s.

 

Get a clue.

[Swiss Cheezhead]

I'd like to clarify one thing about the offense. It's not like an entire new scheme is being implemented. Loney has been with the team for a while and there will still be ALOT of continuity with the playbook. This offense has been around for a long time - back to the Denny Green days - and I doubt much changes other than the percentages of run / pass plays to a bit more of a balanced approach.

 

864241[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

Well, Loney has been there since the 2002 offseason, I believe, so he's only worked in the offense for two seasons. I guess we'll see how much he changes the scheme, but I don't see it as Linehan passing the torch down to the O-line coach. Everything I've read says that the offense will be VERY different. If you've read something to the contrary, please share it.

[Swiss Cheezhead]

 

Here is a January article that suggests that the offense will remain similar under Loney. Still, the more recent stuff I've read suggests otherwise. Maybe we'll get a clearer picture during training camp.

[Swiss Cheezhead]

Here's a new development. I had heard the team was concerned about Loney juggling the O-line and playcalling:

 

-- Loney May Not Call Plays --

Mon Jul 4, 2005 --from FFMastermind.com

 

FFMastermind.com senior fantasy writer and Vikings Update correspondent John Holler reports when the Vikings lost OC Scott Linehan to the Dolphins this off-season, there was quick speculation that the team would go out after an established NFL coordinator or one of the hot college coaches looking to move into the NFL. Instead HC Mike Tice anointed Steve Loney, his offensive line coach, to the position. Loney retains his job coaching the O-line, but is also expected to come up with game plans from week to week and do the play calling on Sunday. However, don't expect that to last very long. Holler has been told that, once the season begins, don't be surprised to see quarterback coach Rich Olson calling the plays or even Tice himself. The team plans to use the preseason to see if Loney can effectively juggle the day to day grind as line coach with the increased responsibility of overseeing the entire offense. While it sounds good on paper now, don't expect it to last.

 

 

864300[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

This was really my main point about the Linehan-for-Loney change -- the play-calling. With Moss on the field, the scheme is a little less important. However, Linehan's play-calling really impressed me, so I find it hard to believe that Loney can equal that success.

 

Also, I'm obviously not the only one impressed by Linehan's prowess -- in the link I posted above, Loney himself says that Culpepper was "upset" about losing Linehan. Obviously, any QB who's had offensive success wouldn't want to lose their OC, but it just illustrates the point I've been making: all the offensive players will have to get used to hearing a different voice. Some will be skeptical, some will struggle to keep up. Either way, the first time Loney wants to run the ball on 3rd and 7, there will be a collective groan in the huddle and plenty of four-letter words when the punting unit has to take the field.