First off you need to get rid of your GM. for the first time in years the team is showing some signs of moving forward. They have some nice young pitchers and a good core of young hitters. then out of the blue they trade Mclouth to the Braves for three prospects and not top name prospects IMO
one step forward two back.

Wow, this team won't pay anyone. I realize they want to give McCutcheon a chance but this is awful. I bet we deal Sanchez soon too.

Nope, I've got to disagree with you on this one. I think this was a good trade and the perfect time to do it. McLouth had an unbelievable first half of last year, since then, he has fallen back to what he is, which is a good, not great outfielder. Keep in mind that most of the front office and ownership changed last year, so, we can't blame this crew for past mistakes. The Pirates aren't going to contend this year or next year, so, they are looking to build strong minor league depth, and get solid prospects. The Nady, Bay, & now McLouth deals are nothing like those we used to do, such as trading away Aramis Ramirez in a complete salary dump. They got 2 of the Braves top 10 prospects. One, Gorkys Hernandez (4th ranked), is a 21-year old outfielder hitting over .300 in AA. The other, Jeff Locke (7th ranked) is also extremely young, and though his numbers are not impressive thus far, he is thought of as a very high ceiling prospect. He is a lefty with a 93MPH fastball and reported good control prior to the early parts of this season. The 3rd guy they got is 25 year old Charlie Morton, who is absolutely tearing it up in AAA and will probably find his way into the Pirates rotation sometime soon. I love Nate McLouth, but, moving his now allows the long over-due promotion of Andrew McCutchen, who becomes our starting Center Fielder. McCutchen is (hopefully) one of our core players for the future, and his time to take over has been long over-due.

So, in the end, the Pirates traded a guy whose value was as high as it's ever going to be, at a position where they have one of their top prospects ready to come up. In doing so, they added much needed pitching depth and got a very solid high-ceiling prospect in Locke. They also picked up a solid young OF'er in Hernandez. If Hernandez can develop some power, this could turn out to be a phenomenal trade for the Bucs.

I love the move and think it is a continuation of the good things that this new management / ownership is doing. It certainly will make us worse this year, but, we weren't ready to contend anyway. Write it down, in 2011, the Pirates will be contenders in the NL Central. Two more years of patience will hopefully be worth the reward. Relax Pirates fans, we are finally on the right track.

Actually, this wasn't about money. We actually had Nate locked up for a few years and he wasn't making a lot of money. This was about clearing the way for McCutchen, adding minor league pitching depth, and getting younger.

I agree that we can't blame this GM & I love the Nady deal he made last year. I also realize they want to get McCutcheon in our lineup. However, we can't always be building for the future. In 2 years who knows where Maholm or Duke will be. If they keep up their good stats we'll trade them rather then pay them. I hope you are right and we do compete in 2 years but I doubt it.

No, we can't always be building for the future, but, at this point, we HAVE to, because, the fact is, that right now, with or without Nate McLouth, this team doesn't contend and likely doesn't threaten .500 by the end of the year. In my opinion, I do think they are doing the right things.

I have to disagree with the above statements. I understand them wanting to get McCuthchen up but the trade seems?. They get another CF which is a clone of their other OF avg, speed and little pop and why if McCut is suppose to be so good. Morton will be a #5 SP at best. Locke I really no nothing about except what his numbers show. Until management decides to open the wallet this will happen again in two years instead of your contention in the Central.

They are starting to open up their wallets. They used to not even draft the best player available because they knew they couldn't pay him. They promised that would change immediately, and it did with the drafting and paying of Alvarez. This move has absolutely NOTHING to do with money. We had McLouth tied up for a few more years and he wasn't making much money. They did this move because it gives them three prospects, two of which are young with a high ceiling. The Pirates are always going to be a small-market team, and in baseball, that means they have to be smart about when and where they spend their money. Previous ownership / management did an awful job of this, paying big contracts to the likes of Kevin Young & Derek Bell, to name a few. They also traded guys for nothing just to dump salary. We cannot blame this new group for things done prior to last year. They are coming in to try to correct a team who was run into the ground by the previous administration. They are doing this thing the right way, finally.

You are right that they get another CF that is similar to Nyjer Morgan & McCutchen, but, he is only 21 years old. Nyjer Morgan is about to turn 29 years old. Who knows, maybe the 21-year old can develop some power and become a more complete player. However, the value we got on this trade was phenomenal. Nate McLouth is perceived to be much better than he is because he had a great first half of last year. He has since fallen back, and this was the right time to trade him before the value got even lower.

Two good articles on the trade. Both like the trade from both teams.

http://pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/news/art...sp&c_id=pit
http://keitholbermann.mlblogs.com/archives..._in_center.html

Interesting quote from an AL scout.

"I think it was a bold and intelligent move on the part of the Pirates and only time will tell, as with any trade, if they reaped the necessary return that a player such as Nate McLouth commands," one American League scout said shortly after the deal was announced. "But I give them all the credit in the world for doing it.

"The reason I say that is that, first of all, they moved Nate while he still has 'bloom on the rose' from last year's career year. I like him. I think he's a very good everyday big leaguer. But whether or not he can duplicate his Cinderella season he had last year? I doubt it."

Yes, I know these came from the Pirates website but the first article uses other teams scouts to rate the trade/players

See Slayer that explains it, only bold and intelligent people can see that this was a good move for the Pirates...........

Oh well that counts me out. hey if the Pirate fans like it then Congrats and the best of luck.

Actually, on the Pirates boards I would say it is split about 50/50 among those who like it and those who don't. As in any trade with young prospects, we won't know for a few years whether it was a good move or not.

Pirate players are openly angry about it.

Of course they are, and I'd be upset if they weren't. Nate was a teammate and friend. He also was one of their best players and seemed to be really well liked. Players on the team now don't want to hear that they are building for the future. They also usually aren't very realistic about their 'actual' chances to compete this year. I don't blame the Pirates for being upset, but, I still think that management is doing the right thing. Time will tell.

I am not the best Pirate fan of late but while I can see building for the future, this team has done so little for so long that I just can't get on board with this move.

Remember Skip, it is new ownership / management that started at the beginning of last year. You are right to be skeptical of ANYTHING this lousy organization does, but, lets try not to blame this group for their predecessor's crimes. That is all that I'm saying.

Two more trades today.

I don't mind the Hinske trade although we only got 2 single A guys. Hinske wasn't going to hep us in the future so I'm ok with it.

We then dealt Morgan & Burnett for Milledge & Hanrahan. I understand that Milledge is only 23 & just last year the Nats gave up Church & Schneider for him but he's always hurt. Also, Burnett was pitching decent while Hanrahan stinks.

I'll listen & agree with Menudo about giving this team 2 years. However, when July 31st rolls around & Adam LaRoche is traded & Freddy Sanchez is traded (I believe they both will be) we will look a lot like a triple A team.

Try to look at the positives in life. The Bucs are 12 1/2 games up on the Nats.

Honestly, with what the Pirates are doing, these were no-brainer trades for them. In both cases, the other teams came to them. Nyjer Morgan is a decent left fielder, but, he was not part of the Pirates future. With McCutheon and the recently acquired Gorkys Hernandez, Morgan was going to be the odd man out. With Milledge, we are taking a big risk, but, with an extremely high ceiling. He is only 23, and has already shown he can play in the big leagues. He has the talent to be a superstar, most around baseball agree on that. His problem has been his off-field attitude and actions. We shall see how he handles this change and if he grows up. He could be a steal. Hanrahan certainly doesn't stink. He has great stuff, with a 97 mph fastball. He has stunk this year, that is for sure. However, he had a good year last year and was talented enough to start the season as the Nats closer. I really wish we could have given them someone back other than Burnett, as I really like how far he has come along.

As for the Hinske trade, there was no reason for the Pirates not to take that one. The Pirates outfield is one area that they have very good depth through the minors. Getting two A level players with relatively high ceilings for Hinske was the best we were going to do.

I've got no issue with these moves and if Milledge grows up, this could end up being an absolute steal.

I'm with you on the last post Menudo.

I am going to really be watching the trading deadline before I say same old Pirates but I am worried.

Where I'm probably different than most Pirates fans, is that I want them to make more moves. Getting this thing turned around isn't going to be pretty, and it isn't going to make a lot of current players or fans happy. If they get proper value in return, I think guys like LaRoche, Wilson, & Sanchez should be moved. Sanchez would be the one that would be the toughest for me to move if I were the GM. I would need extremely good value there, as he is young enough that he could be part of our future in two-three years. Wilson & LaRoche are guys that I like, but, I think moving them for young value is the right move. Remember, this new group only took over at the beginning of last year, and I must say that the trades they've made thus far have brought solid value back. I'm optimistic about the future of this team for the first time in a LONG time.

I'm fine with trading LaRoche. Wilson I don't mind either but we have no backup SS for this year or next really. Sanchez is the best pure hitter we have & I don't understand why we can't/won't resign him. Also, Wilson would be cheap to keep if nobody else wants him.

I knew it was coming. The Bucs are in their 4th of July freefall in the standings. They hover around .500 for half the season then tank. Same old same old. I hope you're right, Menudo. By the way, I watched Hanrahan pitch here in Jax when he played for the Suns(Dodgers AA team at the time). He was pretty damn good. He may just be having a bad year, hopefully.

At least they aren't mathematically eliminated yet. That is .......................... some improvement.

The blog buzz up here in Seattle is that the M's may be on the verge trading the ever under-performing and recently demoted Yuniesky Betancourt in a packaged deal for Freddy Sanchez. Betancourt was a late scratch with the triple A team and its reported Pirate Scouts were in the seats at one of the M's games. :fingerscrossed:

I do not want the Pirates to trade Freddy Sanchez unless they get proper value in return. Shortstop is a big area of need for the future they are trying to build, however, if I remember correctly, Bentancourt is in his late 20's, so, this wouldn't make a whole lot of sense. With the old regime of the Pirates, that would make me think it will happen, however, I have more confidence in this group and hope that they wouldn't do something like that.

Yuniesky Betancourt was traded to KC for 2 minor league pitchers.

Phillies sweep

I was at the Saturday and Sunday with two friends. There is no denying that the Phillies lineup is phenomenal. I'd hate to pitch against them. From a Pirates fan perspective, the two young guys I wanted to see, McCutchen and Garrett Jones certainly didn't disappoint. McCutchen is gong to be a superstar and Garrett Jones is showing tremendous power. He homered in all three games this weekend, and all three were shots. If the Phillies do add Holiday, they are going to be tough to beat.

And you're celebrating what exactly?

I think Cashman was at the game too . The Pirates are the good teams farm system. Bay, McClouth the list goes on.

Steelers-Superbowl Champs
Pens- Stanley Cup Champs

I can finally celebrate beating a pittsburgh team

That is a problem with baseball, not the Pirates. Now, previously, the Pirates weren't getting enough return on their trades and were afraid to spend even what they could afford to, but, this new group has changed that.

Baseball is always going to be ridiculously unfair, with no salary cap, but, there are teams that have been able to compete with the system of building a solid minor league corps, having them come up together (assuming they work out as hoped), take your shots for a few years, rinse, repeat. The Marlins used this system for a couple of championships.

We might keep Wilson & Sanchez.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4335845

We have nothing behind Wilson at SS and 2B isn't are strongest position either. Although, I think they might consider eventually moving Andy LaRoche there, with two of our best prospects being 3rd baseman.

At least y'inz have the Stilers and Pens.

gone to the Red Sox for prospects per ESPN

ETA: for a couple minor leaguers

At least they got something for him. Definitely helps the Sox and gives the Bucs a couple prospects. Was surprised to see the Sox let their SS prospect go.

It was Adam LaRoche 1B, not Andy.


Apparently, the Pirates had a deal with another team that supposedly would have provided better players but wouldn't take Adam LaRoche's entire contract (reported on a Pgh sports radio show) but the Sox agreed to take his entire contract and still give a couple players.

On the plus side, the trades the last month or two have stocked up the Bucs farm teams. The down side is, their major league team still sucks. Hopefully, these moves can turn into something good in the upcoming years.

I can't believe they got anything for Adam LaRoche. All he was doing was blocking good young players from getting at-bats. The Pirates lineup is better this year with LaRoche out of here, and we got a decent SS prospect from the Sox, which was a big position of need.

Garrett Jones is simply knocking the cover off the ball. He has 9 HR's in 66 At-Bats since coming up. Unfortunately, he was a late bloomer and is 28 years old, but, it is still nice to see. The Pirates will move him to be our permanent 1st Baseman, and now they can get more of their outfielders in the lineup, including Delwyn Young, who has hit well all year and Brandon Moss, who has been swinging a hot bat of late. Believe it or not, I can finally see good things coming. They won't do as bad as people think the rest of the year with this lineup and decent pitching:

1. McCutchen - REAL DEAL, this guy is going to be great for years to come.
2. Sanchez - Freddy is a solid bat
3. Jones - Mentioned above
4. Doumit - Solid power, RBI guy. Nice to have him back. 2 homers yesterday.
5. Young - Mentioned above...has hit well all year
6. Moss - Heating up lately........finally showing the potential we expected
7. Andy LaRoche - Decent bat for a #7
8. Wilson - Jack is Jack....never great numbers, but, comes through with big hits

Does this lineup compare to some of the best in the league, absolutely not, but, there is potential. Trading McLouth made room for McCutchen and added valuable minor league depth. Trading LaRoche was a no brainer, as it clears the way for Jones and a crowded outfield. If Lasting Milledge gets his attitude together and becomes the player many think he is capable of (I have my doubts) the Pirates could have a solid lineup as early as next year.

Once again, for the first time in many, many years......... I really like the direction this new group has this team going.

Too many LaRoches.

My fault.

I know the feeling. At first, I thought it was Andy too and was mad about the trade. Then I saw it was Adam and didn't mind at all.

what do you guys think of yesterdays trades ?

Absolutely LOVE, LOVE, LOVE the Jack Wilson trade. Clement is a big-time power prospect. I can't even believe we were able to get him for Jack & Snell. I love Jack and what he has done for this team, but, when you start doing what the Pirates are doing, you can't go half-way. It isn't pretty, but, it is a strategy and they had to go through with it completely.

The Freddy trade, I'm o.k. with, because we got a guy who is supposed to be 'can't miss' as a SP (yes, I know how that sometimes turns out). As I noted before, they started the plan of getting younger talent, and they continued to do it. I would have been o.k. not trading Freddy, but, I do understand why they did it.

Fact is, the Pirates weren't winning anything anytime soon, and they weren't even going to sniff .500 with the group they stated with. They made the decision to completely blow this thing up and start with a young corps and that is what they are doing. They've loaded with enough young talent through the trades the last two years, that they can afford some misses, and as long as some hit, they will have some time to compete before contracts come up and guys go to the Red Sox & Yankees. It isn't pretty or popular, but, I strongly believe that in two years, we will see the method to the madness.

The thought on the left coast is contradictory.

Clements isn't near the valuable prospect he was in the years past. Clements fell out of favor here big time in the last year to the point he isn't even the best prospect at catcher position (even though he probably will never play catcher) within the Mariner organization. A trade to the NL is kind of puzzling because his only potential future here seemed to be DH.

couldn't disagree more on the Jack Wilson deal. Clement is a bust so far.......and the M's pretty much soured on him - didn't pan out as a catcher, and really is no longer a top tier prospect..........and a power hitting 1B, DH?? are not that special anymore - most teams are pretty loaded there

Snell has good major league stuff, and a change of scenery and the confines of Safeco could be a big bonus for him. Wilson is a outstanding defensive SS with a few strong years left in him -move the AL could benefit him as well at the plate

Cedeno is garbage and the P prospects are mediocre - nice trade for the M's

Snell definitely has potential, but, he is an inconsistent headcase. If he works out for the Mariners, good for them. The potential is definitely there. As for Jack, he is coming to an end of a solid career. He is a phenomenal clubhouse guy and a good defensive shortstop with a below average bat. Effort is never a problem for him.

All of that said, I still love it from the Pirates side and what they are trying to do. Clements might be below expectations, but, like Snell, the potential is still there and he is young enough to still get there. If Cedeno or the young pitchers work-out, it is bonus for the Pirates.

I do think this was a trade that makes sense for both teams, considering where they are at this moment.

I'll take the contrarian Seattle fan viewpoint and say that CLEMENT never got a fair shake with the big club for a variety of reasons (signing Johjima to a long-term deal; bringing in Griffey) that had very little to do with what kind of hitter he could become. He's only 25, but he's not going to catch. 2 knee surgeries will prevent that, and he's not really over the last one, which has effected his bat this season in Tacoma. He may not turn into anything, but again, he never really got a very decent chance to succeed here.

Sorry Menudo, but Cedeno has a utility man's glove and an A-ball bat. Best hope is you can trade him for another piece at some other time. The pitchers are pretty intriguing players here. All raw, and all with reputedly solid stuff at the Class A level. I don't know how much of the $12.4 million in salary for 2010 the M's acquired the Pirates are picking up in the deal, but my overall impression is that it's an awful lot of prospects to be giving up for taking on some bad contracts another team doled out.

While I don't think getting rid of the personnel is going to hurt the M's in any way long term, I'm not really sure what this does for them. They seem to be kind of out of a playoff race, but this deal neither makes them contenders nor is a sign they're giving up. For next year, they've added an expensive and aging glove for shortstop (note I didn't say bat), which doesn't excite me. If Ian Snell can turn his stuff into something that matched his early reputation (and AAA performance since being demoted), then maybe it works out with the M's adding another big righty to the rotation, but barring this, I guess I'm not really seeing a reason to be excited.

Exciting? No...but

Two long shot throw in minor league pitchers, a journeyman utility guy who is barely a major league player, and an oft-injured young power hitter (who apparently isn't good enough to replace Griffey or Branyan next year) who may play everyday at some point in his career...

for

a short term upgrade at shortstop and a talented but sometimes under-performing starting pitcher who figures into the rotation short-term and maybe long term.

I'll take this trade-off anyday

$12.5 million in salary for some mediocre veteran talent that requires a pitcher to turn things around to pay off? Meh....