MikesVikes Posted September 13, 2005 Share Posted September 13, 2005 Tice is also handling his rookie receiver in completely the wrong way. He says that he's trying to take pressure off of him by letting him not perform. Let's see how the "rookie bust" label keeps pressure off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikesVikes Posted September 13, 2005 Share Posted September 13, 2005 Zyggy doesn't like to lose and mentioned that he will be more of a hands on owner than he has been so far. First order of business, hire a coach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outshined Posted September 13, 2005 Share Posted September 13, 2005 I agree - they tried to get Williamson in, but Hell, he couldn't even get the ball to to Burleson. ' The play where Williamson was a factor was when he drew the holding penalty. I forgot who it was Kelly or Barber, but he blew past him and they had no choice but to hold him. It moved the chains... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kcmast Posted September 13, 2005 Share Posted September 13, 2005 Zyggy doesn't like to lose and mentioned that he will be more of a hands on owner than he has been so far. First order of business, hire a coach. 986956[/snapback] No, please keep Tice. Please, please, please! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skilly Posted September 13, 2005 Share Posted September 13, 2005 For what it's worth, I heard that the reason Tice did not start Bennet was because he missed a meeting, and was being punished. Now, for the Vikings performance. I guess it can be attributed to that "New Math" all the kids are raving about these days. You know, "addition by subtraction = Vikings 0-1" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thews40 Posted September 13, 2005 Share Posted September 13, 2005 Tice is the Homer Simpson of the NFL. 985364[/snapback] I'd vote for Al Davis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebellab Posted September 13, 2005 Share Posted September 13, 2005 One other thing that I noticed about the team and the coaching staff was the lack of disipline (sp). The illegal formation, false starts and illegal block in the back are basic football fundamentals that the Viks are notorious for. These in my mind point toward a lack of disipline (sp). There is no reason for a coach to not have control of his team. For this reason and many others I don't see mike Tice in the playoffs if the team is there or not. He will be fired so. Matt Birk's absence is an issue, but why didn't they get a quality back-up for such and important position. Birk has had injury issues in the past what was going to make this year any different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chadman Posted September 13, 2005 Author Share Posted September 13, 2005 One other thing that I noticed about the team and the coaching staff was the lack of disipline (sp). The illegal formation, false starts and illegal block in the back are basic football fundamentals that the Viks are notorious for. These in my mind point toward a lack of disipline (sp). There is no reason for a coach to not have control of his team. For this reason and many others I don't see mike Tice in the playoffs if the team is there or not. He will be fired so. Matt Birk's absence is an issue, but why didn't they get a quality back-up for such and important position. Birk has had injury issues in the past what was going to make this year any different. 987032[/snapback] Two very good points, I think. Dead on. As for the first part, this continues to be an issue, during the preseason and game one. The other thing is delay of game, or calling time out to avoid it. I've always laid this on Tice...something that just has to be blamed on coaching if it goes on year after year, when personnel changes. The second point is something that has to be blamed on coaching as well. Considering that Tice was previously the OL coach, as was Loney, and we know Tice is an egotist, I assume they figured they could work with what they had, and make them better. I think they just looked past this as something they "could handle". This seems even more probable, when Tice was kind of hinting around in the press that "We needed Birk" in his needling, understated way when he was facing that tough decision about the surgery again. Tice is about as smooth as a sheet of sandpaper. Funny, I used to support him because I thought he could be kind of a mini-Ditka in the way he came across. Boy was I wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonorator Posted September 13, 2005 Share Posted September 13, 2005 why is it so much to just say, "this team is not as good without moss." c'mon everyone, say it with me ... "this team is not as good without moss." moss goes in the 1st or 2nd round of all of our drafts and is typically the first receiver because he is the best. it should not be that hard to admit and face the fact that when you remove the best receiver in all of football (maybe all-time) from your team, your team is not better. and it's ok to just say this. it's amazing how many people are so adamant to try and prove or deny that this is true. :doah: moss opens up the entire offense, enables a more effective running game, puts defenses on edge, and creates general havoc. without him, defenses can calm down, keep to their game plan, and get more creative and daring. yes, minnesota could add some new players with the freed-up $$$, but they have not added one of the best players to ever play the game. they may not have won a super bowl, but they have been a force and posted some very respectable seasons/numbers with moss. so vikes fans, it's ok to say it. say you miss randy. just get over it. go bengals. tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chadman Posted September 13, 2005 Author Share Posted September 13, 2005 I won't just say it. Because I don't believe it's true. You cannot simply look at one facet of a team game and say a team is better. You have to look at all of the parts. It's not golf or tennis. It's a team sport. If you're asking me whether Randy Moss is the best fantasy receiver - perhaps of all time? Maybe. Is he a lot better than anything the Vikings currently have at receiver? Yes, easily. Although Burleson is a terrific receiver and a legitimate #1. I could argue Terrell Owens is better week in/week out, but that's not what we're talking about here. You're telling me that you as an NFL General Manager would not trade Randy Moss for Darren Sharper, Fred Smoot, Pat Williams, Sam Cowart, Napoleon Harris and a #7 First Round Draft Pick? If you are, then we have nothing else to discuss, because in my opinion, you are either not telling the truth or would be a soon to be fired pretend general manager. In my opinion, the Vikings are a MUCH better team without Moss. I cannot imagine going through another year like last year with the offensive line problems we have now, the RB problems we have now, and the ATROCIOUS defense we had last year. My God...Tampa would have beaten us by double that score if we'd had Moss in the lineup and last year's defense. Cadillac would have had two or three of those 71 yarders. Griese would have had another TD completion, at least. There would have been NO Vikings safety doing what Sharper did to score the Vikings defensive TD. If you have not sat through many of the 2nd halves of Vikings games watching Moss mail it in when the defense escorted people to the end zone over the past two years, then you really don't know what you're talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chadman Posted September 13, 2005 Author Share Posted September 13, 2005 but they have not added one of the best players to ever play the game. they may not have won a super bowl, but they have been a force and posted some very respectable seasons/numbers with moss. 987330[/snapback] No, they did not add one of the best players to play the game. They added multiple All Pro players and possibly a future one in exchange for an aging wide receiver that has been seriously hurt both of the past two seasons, is an embarrassment to the team in many situations, and was not even voted to the Pro Bowl last season. Oh yeah...one who admits that he takes plays off and only plays when he feels like it. And draws attention to his drug usage on National TV. Again, we're not talking about fantasy here in this thread/analysis. We're talking about actual NFL. And if you're telling me that the Vikings and their fans should be happy with and settle for being a "force" (whatever the Hell that is - winning one playoff game every few years, I guess) and posting some very respectable seasons/numbers, then I'd say you should set your sights a little higher. I'd prefer to address issues and try to make my team a real force. Heck, maybe even win TWO playoff games some year. :doah: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonorator Posted September 13, 2005 Share Posted September 13, 2005 being a force means putting a respectable team out on the field with a legitimate chance to win every game. being a force means giving your fans something to drag their asses down to the stadium to watch vs. punishing them by putting out a sub-par/mediocre product. i know - i'm a bengals fan. burleson is no moss. he is an average receiver. culpepper without moss becomes an average QB (and much below average if you look at week 1). the vikes are left this season with no real offensive weapons. defenses - stop culpepper from taking off and you shouldn't have a tough time winning. culpepper will get beat up this year and will not last long. yes, they got some good players - but none are stong enough to save minnesota from the mess they are in. if the team had a running game or any other facet of their offense firing, then they could do the deal. this was not the time. oh, and tice is no mastermind. i doubt he has much up his sleeve. with moss, this team was maybe a draft pick or free agent away from contending. they are now rebuilding. it's a long road ahead vikes fans. tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelBunz Posted September 14, 2005 Share Posted September 14, 2005 Tice is the Homer Simpson of the NFL. 985364[/snapback] That's funny. He always reminded me of the modern day Fred Flintstone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Johnies Posted September 14, 2005 Share Posted September 14, 2005 That's funny. He always reminded me of the modern day Fred Flintstone. 988338[/snapback] Fred Flinstone was a loveable a$$hole. Tice is just an a$$hole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big John Posted September 14, 2005 Share Posted September 14, 2005 That's funny. He always reminded me of the modern day Fred Flintstone. 988338[/snapback] capn grunge's "daddy picture" reminds me of Fred Flintstone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chadman Posted September 14, 2005 Author Share Posted September 14, 2005 being a force means putting a respectable team out on the field with a legitimate chance to win every game. being a force means giving your fans something to drag their asses down to the stadium to watch vs. punishing them by putting out a sub-par/mediocre product. i know - i'm a bengals fan. burleson is no moss. he is an average receiver. culpepper without moss becomes an average QB (and much below average if you look at week 1). the vikes are left this season with no real offensive weapons. defenses - stop culpepper from taking off and you shouldn't have a tough time winning. culpepper will get beat up this year and will not last long. yes, they got some good players - but none are stong enough to save minnesota from the mess they are in. if the team had a running game or any other facet of their offense firing, then they could do the deal. this was not the time. oh, and tice is no mastermind. i doubt he has much up his sleeve. with moss, this team was maybe a draft pick or free agent away from contending. they are now rebuilding. it's a long road ahead vikes fans. tony 987574[/snapback] Tony, everyone is entitled to an opinion, and you are entitled to yours. I personally think you are looking at it from a narrow perspective and from one that has not experienced the Moss era first-hand, watching every game as I have. I know there are others nationally and locally that essentially agree with you. We will have to see how this - and the upcoming seasons - play out after Moss. I could not disagree with you more about a couple of points you made in your last post. You are saying that the Vikings were a force with Moss, and assessing that they are not now. You assess that being a force means putting a respectable team out on the field with a legitimate chance to win every game. I'd argue the Vikings overall - even with their turnovers - were respectable overall, especially defensively, and I know from watching the game they had a legitimate chance to win in week one. I won't get into the minutia details, but they had arguable penalties that erased scores. They moved the ball prior to the turnovers. They had multiple opportunities to score more than their opponent, despite the turnovers. The final interception killed yet another chance to win the game. They were inside the 10 yard line facing a 4th down decision on whether to go for it to tie the game or kick a FG and get another chance to win - which they did and had. Defensively, they did things they have NEVER been able to do without the new personnel thanks to the departure of Moss. Was it a bad offensive performance compared to expectations? Sure it was. But they still had chances to win the game - in game one, as they are trying to see how all the new players, coaches and schemes are coming together. Obviously, they need a lot of work. Will it continue this week? I seriously doubt it. I doubt the Bengals defense is near what the Bucs defense is. Nor are 90% of the other teams in the league. I think this week will show us a lot about how the Vikes offense will be post-Moss. And I think they'll get better as the season goes along. I agree, offensively they are not as good as with Moss. We'll see how much worse they are, if they are. I think they'll score less. But I think that with the new defense, they'll be in and have a chance to win every game. They'll throw out some bad ones, I think the coaching will see to that. Moss being gone is a negative in many ways on the offensive potential. There is no doubt. But I think this offense will still be good. They were effective on 3rd down conversions. They have to run the ball better and fix their OL issues. They still have weapons. Culpepper is not an average QB. He is an elite QB, and will show it again. The receivers are good. Bennett and Moore are good RBs. The tight ends are terrific. In game one, the special teams looked much improved. The kicker and punter were great. These are all my opinions, and I may be proven wrong. We'll see. It's just how I see it. I think it's ludicrous to say that with Moss and the defense they put on the field last year that they were a draft pick or free agent away from contending. I assume you mean a Super Bowl...as they contended last year and will contend (I feel) this year. One draft pick or one free agent would in no way have put this team over the top. They could not have stopped anyone with that. They could have never gone deep in the playoffs, let alone a Super Bowl without drastically upgrading the defense. If you'd sat through the 2nd half collapses last season thanks to a complete lack of defense, then you would not say that. It was unwatchable, I'm telling you. It didn't matter how many Moss TD's (remember the injuries and when he missed games...it was increasing in frequency) they got when he felt like playing, you knew they would give them back on the next drives. It was sad, and embarrassing. You cannot win a championship with a star wide receiver and no defense. Show me one Super Bowl winner with that setup. Please. You are entitled to your opinion, and if the Vikes continue to have injuries and no improvement on the offensive line, then they will probably not make the playoffs. I contend Moss is not the main reason for that...it's the offensive line injuries. No back can run the ball with a terrible OL, and no receiver is going to have a big impact if the QB does not have time to get the ball to him. We shall see. On a related note...how good is the Bengals defense this season? That's a serious question...I have not seen too much about them, and I always assumed they would get a lot better with Lewis as the head coach. I know Pollock is an impact player, but how good are they overall? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonorator Posted September 14, 2005 Share Posted September 14, 2005 chadman, thoughtful post and great points. part of the big value that was obtained for moss were the draft picks and we will have to see how those play out. my bottom line is that the vikes are years away from contending. as you state, the foundation is cracking with the OL hurting and the weapons on offense few and far between. i'll have to see the improved defense perform over time before being a believer. the moss/cpep combination was dynamite and is something you could build around. with any sort of a running game, this offense could have been nearly unstoppable. now, they have average talent and are not too threatening to go up against anymore. tice must go. this weekend will be a big test. the bengals d is improved, but if you saw any of the cleveland game, a guy named frisman caught for over 100 yards and reuben was strong on the ground. minnesota has to show some improvement and should be able to do so. if not, then vikes fans are in for a long, long year. i think the bengals will take it. tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Johnies Posted September 14, 2005 Share Posted September 14, 2005 Hey Big Jim, are you related to Big John? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davehb1 Posted September 14, 2005 Share Posted September 14, 2005 The Vikings do miss Randy Moss. The biggest difference is last year every team tried to double cover moss on every play. This year teams are able to treat the Vikings WR's just as they would on any other team, single coverage with occasional help from the safeties. This allows teams to blitz Culpepper without being worried about getting burned by Moss. This screws up Culpepper's timing and the running game. Now Vikings RB's have to face something that they have never faced before 8 man fronts. The Vikings, specifically Mike Tice needs to do a better job game planning for these problems. And I dont think he can - I think the Vikings go about 9-7 and miss the playoffs and Tice loses his job. Fantasy wise Culpepper has a decent year as does Burleson, but obviously Culpepper will not be ranked up high with the likes of Manning anymore... My .02... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigJim Posted September 14, 2005 Share Posted September 14, 2005 Matt Birk's injury is the real issue with the offense. 985173[/snapback] I'm going to disagree with this. Matt Birk missed the vast majority of last season and yet this offense moved, and in fact Daunte put up statistically historic 5000+ passing/rushing yards with 40+ total TDs. I will agree with you that Moss is not the problem. Moss was healthy for all of 5 games last season, and while Moss did catch some goal line TDs in otherwise low production games upon his return from injury, his 700 receiving yards was not what made the offense move. I personally would pin the blame for what we saw last Sunday on the Vikings promoting yet another OL coach to a lead coaching position he's completely unqualified to hold, with the *SOLE* consideration being that it costs less than searching for and hiring a capable coach. And BTW, while Loney was acting as an OC last Sunday trying to figure out how to get a running play to go more than 1 yard, I'm curious who was working with the offensive line to straighten it out? Oh that's right, NOBODY, because the Vikings were too cheap to fill a vacated OL coach position. Instead, they expected a guy who's in way over his head as an OC to coach OL also. I do realize the Vikes brought in Corbin Lacina as an intern OL special assistant. All I'll say to that is: Great, adding another unqualified/unproven intern coach to this staff will accomplish exactly what it did last Sunday. This team cannot win until it has legitimate coaching. This should be the Vikings management in public~~~> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big John Posted September 14, 2005 Share Posted September 14, 2005 Hey Big Jim, are you related to Big John? 989356[/snapback] No he isn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chadman Posted September 14, 2005 Author Share Posted September 14, 2005 I agree wholeheartedly with the last two posts. The sad thing is, you have such a narrow window of opportunity in the NFL, and they may miss a good one with this coaching staff at the helm. I do think this will change with the new ownership, as the guy seems to preach success and excellence, and he has already put his money where his mouth is in small ways with the team. I don't think he'll have one worry about canning Tice in this town - he could call it a public service. It's almost worth enduring a crap season to get a big time coach in here. I think they could still make the playoffs and still get rid of Tice and company. I just hope they also keep Jeff Diamond and promote him to General Manager, or give him real control and a title. He has done wonders with no money and no freedom prior to last season. And from what I've heard, he's done a great job with the contracts of the new high priced talent as far as being relatively cap friendly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Posted September 14, 2005 Share Posted September 14, 2005 Mike Tice is the Chauncey Gardner of the NFL. Does that give the Central title to Green Bay again? Detroit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big John Posted September 14, 2005 Share Posted September 14, 2005 Mike Tice is the Chauncey Gardner of the NFL. Does that give the Central title to Green Bay again? Detroit? 990011[/snapback] It is the North. Or even Chicago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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