Big F'n Dave Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 (edited) Hamas wins parliamentary elections. Both Israel and the U.S. have already said they wouldn't deal with a PA headed by Hamas. The Palestinian PM has resigned. This is gonna get ugly. Edited January 26, 2006 by Big F'n Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furd Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 Don't be silly. This is democracy in action. And we all know how much George loves democracy in the Middle East. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliaz Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 Don't be silly. This is democracy in action. And we all know how much George loves democracy in the Middle East. 1289127[/snapback] As much as Hamas is a bunch of tools, Furd is right. For the United States to issue a statement saying they will not deal with them is to be hypocritical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Beatings Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 As much as Hamas is a bunch of tools, Furd is right. For the United States to issue a statement saying they will not deal with them is to be hypocritical. 1289177[/snapback] I don't think it is. Democracy is just a method of governance (in certain forms for certain situations, it is usually the best tool in assuring freedom) but that doesn't mean it guarantees favored political relations... Hitler was democratically elected for cryin' out loud! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big F'n Dave Posted January 26, 2006 Author Share Posted January 26, 2006 I just remembered this story from a couple weeks ago. Certainly didn't get much play if it's true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 I don't think it is. Democracy is just a method of governance (in certain forms for certain situations, it is usually the best tool in assuring freedom) but that doesn't mean it guarantees favored political relations... Hitler was democratically elected for cryin' out loud! 1289198[/snapback] Cliaz said it's hypocritical and you say it isn't. I think you're right - it isn't necessarily hypocritical, but it IS impractical. If democracy is the election of representatives by the will of the people, it follows that the elected government is legitimate, however odious it may be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furd Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 I don't think it is. Democracy is just a method of governance (in certain forms for certain situations, it is usually the best tool in assuring freedom) but that doesn't mean it guarantees favored political relations... Hitler was democratically elected for cryin' out loud! 1289198[/snapback] I agree. But when all we have heard from the White House is democracy in the Middle East, democracy, democracy, democracy, democracy <squawk>, there is a certain amount of irony. Of course, this will pale in camparison if those darn lovable Iraqis elect a government that isn't US friendly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliaz Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 I don't think it is. Democracy is just a method of governance (in certain forms for certain situations, it is usually the best tool in assuring freedom) but that doesn't mean it guarantees favored political relations... Hitler was democratically elected for cryin' out loud! 1289198[/snapback] Bush said he wants democracy in the middle east. Democracy happened. the results weren't want the US government wanted. He said there will be no interactin between the US goverment and their PA. To me, anyways, it's hypocritical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 The question is whether it is a true democracy in which case it would be very hypocritical for us not to deal with them, or if it is a democracy that is forged by fear where people are afraid to go to the polls and vote a certain way. If it that is the case then I think that not dealing with them is the right tact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 The question is whether it is a true democracy in which case it would be very hypocritical for us not to deal with them, or if it is a democracy that is forged by fear where people are afraid to go to the polls and vote a certain way. If it that is the case then I think that not dealing with them is the right tact. 1289259[/snapback] hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm sounds kinda famliar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 I don't think it is. Democracy is just a method of governance (in certain forms for certain situations, it is usually the best tool in assuring freedom) but that doesn't mean it guarantees favored political relations... Hitler was democratically elected for cryin' out loud! 1289198[/snapback] And we stopped democratically elected governments in the past. Including Iran. This is and never was about democracy unless they elected the people the neo-cons liked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big F'n Dave Posted January 26, 2006 Author Share Posted January 26, 2006 The question is whether it is a true democracy in which case it would be very hypocritical for us not to deal with them, or if it is a democracy that is forged by fear where people are afraid to go to the polls and vote a certain way. If it that is the case then I think that not dealing with them is the right tact. 1289259[/snapback] 78 percent voter turnout, so I don't think you could say Palestinians were afraid to vote. The fact is, Hamas has done a much better job of improving the everyday lives of Palestinians by providing social services that Fatah and the PLO couldn't or wouldn't provide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Beatings Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 The question is whether it is a true democracy in which case it would be very hypocritical for us not to deal with them, or if it is a democracy that is forged by fear where people are afraid to go to the polls and vote a certain way. If it that is the case then I think that not dealing with them is the right tact. 1289259[/snapback] 78 percent voter turnout, so I don't think you could say Palestinians were afraid to vote. The fact is, Hamas has done a much better job of improving the everyday lives of Palestinians by providing social services that Fatah and the PLO couldn't or wouldn't provide. 1289301[/snapback] Plus they had an International team overseeing the election (including our own President Jimmy Carter)... all of whom seem to agree that everythign went well. And if there was some strong-arming going on, you'd think that the losing Fatah party would be more vocal about it. But they seem content to allow the results to stand. It certainly sucks for diplomacy, and I don't blame our Gov't or Israel's for not wanting to deal with an organization that is vocally and demonstrably committed to destroying Israel. Still, if this is what the Palestinians want, then they will reap the consequences of their choices, for good or for bad... just like the rest of us democratic nations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 Still, if this is what the Palestinians want, then they will reap the consequences of their choices, for good or for bad... just like the rest of us democratic nations. 1289486[/snapback] yeah. it's unbelievable how friggin stupid these people are. israel makes major concessions, giving back all sorts of land and the like. and the palestinians turn around and elect hamas. i almost wish israel would just wipe them off the map. and for the cynical dolts whose only take on this is to somehow try and turn it against bush...would it be better if we did NOT advocate democracy (and the implicit political freedom that comes along with it) in the middle east? what is the way out of the middle east jihadi morass if not freedom and popular government? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 Unless someone can show widespread voter fraud on behalf of Hamas, the Palestinians should be judged by the choices they have made this week. They have chosen war and the annihilation of Israel over the two-state solution favored publicly (if not fervently) by Fatah. Europe and the United States need to wake up from their delusional dreamland of a situation where both sides in this conflict want a peaceful conclusion and a world without hatred for their children and grandchildren. Clearly, the Palestinians want war, and they have made no secret of using their children and grandchildren as bomb fuses in order to perpetuate it. The first item on our list should be an absolute end to all aid to the Palestinian territories and government. The US should not subsidize Hamas, nor should it give money to a people whose only aim appears to be genocide. Second, the US should allow Israel to respond militarily to any and all provocations -- no more pressure from Washington on Tel Aviv to moderate their responses to suicide bombings and missile attacks. And if Hamas and the Palestinians still want to wage war after that, then let the IDF roll across the West Bank and Gaza Strip and push the whole lot of them right into the Jordan River and Mediterranean Sea. That's what total war means, and as soon as the world stops preventing the Palestinians from the risks of their own choices, the sooner they will conclude that war is the worst possible choice for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big F'n Dave Posted January 26, 2006 Author Share Posted January 26, 2006 What's that from, Az? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 What's that from, Az? 1289578[/snapback] this guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big F'n Dave Posted January 26, 2006 Author Share Posted January 26, 2006 this guy 1289586[/snapback] Ohhh. Captain Ed. Gotcha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 I just remembered this story from a couple weeks ago. Certainly didn't get much play if it's true. 1289210[/snapback] yeah. it's unbelievable how friggin stupid these people are. israel makes major concessions, giving back all sorts of land and the like. and the palestinians turn around and elect hamas. i almost wish israel would just wipe them off the map. and for the cynical dolts whose only take on this is to somehow try and turn it against bush...would it be better if we did NOT advocate democracy (and the implicit political freedom that comes along with it) in the middle east? what is the way out of the middle east jihadi morass if not freedom and popular government? 1289517[/snapback] Az, take a look at BFDs post above. I'm not the world's greatest optimist but perhaps that's a hopeful sign. God knows the area could use one or two. And as BFD points out, Hamas has been present in the everyday lives of Palestinians in ways that the outgoing government has not. As with Al-Qaeda, it's not all bombs and bullets, both organizations have successful hearts and minds efforts in place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spain Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 The Palestinians were the same people dancing in the streets when 9/11 occured. They cheered the murder of 3000 Americans. Screw them and the jack asses they just elected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveman_Nick Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 I hear that there is a new internet tracking system the Feds are about to unleash in response to this! Hamas in power will need to be tracked! Unfettered access to wiretaps will look like childsplay compared to this! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope Flick Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 And we stopped democratically elected governments in the past. Including Iran. This is and never was about democracy unless they elected the people the neo-cons liked. 1289284[/snapback] So you support the Hamas election platform? I'm one of the stronger liberals on this board, and I say apply the "IRA Standard" to this situation: you want to be an election winner? Elections are about politics, put down your guns. That's how Sinn Fein came into political power and stayed there, through abandonment of terrorist activities against an illegal occupation they compromised and will eventually get what they wwant (IMO). There's no such thing as a quick fix here, and this could be something major or simply a bump in the road. Probably somewhere in between. Again, I'm no fan of Bush but as long as he keeps demonstrating that he'll accept a Palestinian state he's keeping his eye on something important. Will he follow through? Probably only if it's good for business but we'll see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H8tank Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 Az, take a look at BFDs post above. I'm not the world's greatest optimist but perhaps that's a hopeful sign. Thanks, you just removed all questions about you being the absolute most wreetoddedest person here. You are now even above lulu. Another Hamas official, Mushir al-Masri, warned that Hamas would not hold peace talks with Israel. "Negotiations with Israel is not on our agenda," he said. "Recognising Israel is not on the agenda either now." Real fokking moran. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 Thanks, you just removed all questions about you being the absolute most wreetoddedest person here. You are now even above lulu.Real fokking moran. 1290202[/snapback] Ho hum, $hit for brains, you think Rome was built in a day? If it's true that Hamas have dropped their "destruction of Israel" clause, that is a step in the right direction, even if armchair cowards like you would rather watch real war on your TV, you bloated useless dimwit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czarina Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 The Palestinians voted for the party they felt would be most effective in getting them food, shelter, etc. The previous government was completely incompetent at this. They (the public) were ripe for the picking in that regard. People will always vote their basic needs and pocketbook. I read this story last night, but I thought I heard today on the radio that the Fatah party ended up winning the election after all? Did they run out and retract their resignations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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