Chavez Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 Atheists distrusted American’s increasing acceptance of religious diversity doesn’t extend to those who don’t believe in a god, according to a national survey by researchers in the University of Minnesota’s department of sociology. From a telephone sampling of more than 2,000 households, university researchers found that Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in “sharing their vision of American society.” Atheists are also the minority group most Americans are least willing to allow their children to marry. Even though atheists are few in number, not formally organized and relatively hard to publicly identify, they are seen as a threat to the American way of life by a large portion of the American public. “Atheists, who account for about 3 percent of the U.S. population, offer a glaring exception to the rule of increasing social tolerance over the last 30 years,” says Penny Edgell, associate sociology professor and the study’s lead researcher. Edgell also argues that today’s atheists play the role that Catholics, Jews and communists have played in the past—they offer a symbolic moral boundary to membership in American society. “It seems most Americans believe that diversity is fine, as long as every one shares a common ‘core’ of values that make them trustworthy—and in America, that ‘core’ has historically been religious,” says Edgell. Many of the study’s respondents associated atheism with an array of moral indiscretions ranging from criminal behavior to rampant materialism and cultural elitism. Edgell believes a fear of moral decline and resulting social disorder is behind the findings. “Americans believe they share more than rules and procedures with their fellow citizens—they share an understanding of right and wrong,” she said. “Our findings seem to rest on a view of atheists as self-interested individuals who are not concerned with the common good.” The researchers also found acceptance or rejection of atheists is related not only to personal religiosity, but also to one’s exposure to diversity, education and political orientation—with more educated, East and West Coast Americans more accepting of atheists than their Midwestern counterparts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furd Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 Well, I don't trust overtly religious people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bier Meister Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 no jeebus.... no god. why.... why, that just evil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDFFFreak Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 Atheists distrusted 1388649[/snapback] "researchers found that Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in “sharing their vision of American society.” Wow... atheists below gays? "The researchers also found acceptance or rejection of atheists is related not only to personal religiosity, but also to one’s exposure to diversity, education and political orientation—with more educated, East and West Coast Americans more accepting of atheists than their Midwestern counterparts." No surprise here. Lack of knowledge or exposure often breeds ignorance. The question is: is it religion that teaches it's followers to be exclusive and unwelcoming to people of different view? Or is the individual that twists and interprets religion to fit their personal views and explain what seems wrong and unconfortable to them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 no jeebus.... no god. why.... why, that just evil. 1388654[/snapback] actually, that's what chavez said...not the survey. the survey indicates americans as a whole are pretty "tolerant" toward muslims and jews, for instance. part of this goes back to the cold war, the "godless commies" and all that. the country as a whole has had a pretty nasty attitude toward strident atheist for quite a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted March 26, 2006 Author Share Posted March 26, 2006 actually, that's what chavez said...not the survey. 1388658[/snapback] Saying "Jesus" is just funnier than saying "God" for some reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bier Meister Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 actually, that's what chavez said...not the survey. the survey indicates americans as a whole are pretty "tolerant" toward muslims and jews, for instance. i thought it said that, in general, tolerance is increasing and that americans believe that muslims, jews, gays, and newer immigrents are more similar in sharing their vision of american societythan atheists. part of this goes back to the cold war, the "godless commies" and all that. the country as a whole has had a pretty nasty attitude toward strident atheist for quite a while. yes... they believe that atheists are self-interested and are not concerned for the common good.... also associate them with criminal behavior, rampent materialism, and cultural elitism. 1388658[/snapback] 2000 households were surveyed.... i am very curious about the population taken. what percentage were christian? while it was chavez that mentioned jeebus, i don't think it's a stretch to infer it's validity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 This finding actually makes perfect economic sense. In a world of asymmetric information, people are going to enter into transactions where they don't exactly know what they are getting. They could be getting a good deal or they could be getting screwed (think of the market for used cars). You would like to think that the other party in the transaction is not going to screw you in the deal. What could cause them not to want to screw you? Several things, including market sanctioning (so that the person will go out of business if they keep cheating people), fear of lawsuits, fear of prison, etc. Another thing that could stop someone from cheating you is if that person fears "sanctioning" from a supreme being if they behave improperly. Given that atheists don't believe in a god who will sanction them, it is rational for people who might engage in transactions with them to think that they will act in a less trustworthy manner than their theist counterparts. (note: this does not all imply that people who "claim" to be theists will actually believe in a sanctioning god and behave accordingly--so it doesn't mean that people who claim to be religious are indeed trustworthy) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted March 26, 2006 Author Share Posted March 26, 2006 This finding actually makes perfect economic sense. In a world of asymmetric information, people are going to enter into transactions where they don't exactly know what they are getting. They could be getting a good deal or they could be getting screwed (think of the market for used cars). You would like to think that the other party in the transaction is not going to screw you in the deal. What could cause them not to want to screw you? Several things, including market sanctioning (so that the person will go out of business if they keep cheating people), fear of lawsuits, fear of prison, etc. Another thing that could stop someone from cheating you is if that person fears "sanctioning" from a supreme being if they behave improperly. Given that atheists don't believe in a god who will sanction them, it is rational for people who might engage in transactions with them to think that they will act in a less trustworthy manner than their theist counterparts. (note: this does not all imply that people who "claim" to be theists will actually believe in a sanctioning god and behave accordingly--so it doesn't mean that people who claim to be religious are indeed trustworthy) 1388675[/snapback] Of course, that doesn't explain why some "Christian" businesses engage in the same cut-throat, low-ball tactics as secular ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 Of course, that doesn't explain why some "Christian" businesses engage in the same cut-throat, low-ball tactics as secular ones. 1388681[/snapback] which was exactly what my "note" said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bier Meister Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 (edited) This finding actually makes perfect economic sense. In a world of asymmetric information, people are going to enter into transactions where they don't exactly know what they are getting. They could be getting a good deal or they could be getting screwed (think of the market for used cars). You would like to think that the other party in the transaction is not going to screw you in the deal. What could cause them not to want to screw you? Several things, including market sanctioning (so that the person will go out of business if they keep cheating people), fear of lawsuits, fear of prison, etc. Another thing that could stop someone from cheating you is if that person fears "sanctioning" from a supreme being if they behave improperly. Given that atheists don't believe in a god who will sanction them, it is rational for people who might engage in transactions with them to think that they will act in a less trustworthy manner than their theist counterparts. (note: this does not all imply that people who "claim" to be theists will actually believe in a sanctioning god and behave accordingly--so it doesn't mean that people who claim to be religious are indeed trustworthy) 1388675[/snapback] i agree..... also i agree that a self-rightousness exists. christian morality overrides secular morality in many christians' minds.... something i believe to be untrue. Edited March 26, 2006 by Bier Meister Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 the country as a whole has had a pretty nasty attitude toward strident atheist for quite a while. 1388658[/snapback] Keyword is "strident". I would take the same view with atheists as I do with the religious proselytizers - shut up and let other people live the way they want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted March 26, 2006 Author Share Posted March 26, 2006 i agree..... also i agree that a self-rightousness exists. christian morality overrides secular morality in many christians' minds.... something i believe to be untrue. 1388684[/snapback] Well, you're wrong - I'm an agnostic and I just stole your credit card number. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bier Meister Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 Well, you're wrong - I'm an agnostic and I just stole your credit card number. 1388691[/snapback] maybe that's just because you are chavez, not agnostic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted March 26, 2006 Author Share Posted March 26, 2006 maybe that's just because you are chavez, not agnostic. 1388692[/snapback] If you can't pre-judge people by group identification, how are you supposed to know who is good and who is bad? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bier Meister Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 If you can't pre-judge people by group identification, how are you supposed to know who is good and who is bad? 1388697[/snapback] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 maybe that's just because you are chavez, not agnostic. 1388692[/snapback] true--agnostics would probably be seen as more trustworthy than athiests, because agnostics are at least open to the idea that there might be a supreme being and might therefore be unwilling to be a bad person "just in case". But if I am certain that there is no supreme being or power, then I have absolutely no incentive to not exploit any opportunity that I think I can get away with (after controlling for the potential of worldly sanctioning by markets, lawsuits, prison, etc.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDFFFreak Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 Of course, that doesn't explain why some "Christian" businesses engage in the same cut-throat, low-ball tactics as secular ones. 1388681[/snapback] DING DING DING. It kills me that some religious people pick and choose when the christian moral and ethical applies and when it doesn't. Business, socially, etc. It's hard not to view many as hypocritical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 true--agnostics would probably be seen as more trustworthy than athiests, because agnostics are at least open to the idea that there might be a supreme being and might therefore be unwilling to be a bad person "just in case". But if I am certain that there is no supreme being or power, then I have absolutely no incentive to not exploit any opportunity that I think I can get away with (after controlling for the potential of worldly sanctioning by markets, lawsuits, prison, etc.) 1388701[/snapback] Wiegie dusts off an old discussion and trots it out for it's annual airing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted March 26, 2006 Author Share Posted March 26, 2006 true--agnostics would probably be seen as more trustworthy than athiests, because agnostics are at least open to the idea that there might be a supreme being and might therefore be unwilling to be a bad person "just in case". 1388701[/snapback] Pascal's Wager is the most reprehensible ethical strategy out there. Besides, as most Christian denominations lean to the orthodoxic rather than the orthopractic, behaving correctly wouldn't do you squat if you don't accept Jesus as your personal lord and savior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 Wiegie dusts off an old discussion and trots it out for it's annual airing. 1388705[/snapback] I'll keep trotting it out until somebody explains to me why in the world an atheist wouldn't attempt to exploit "opportunities" that they thought they could get away with without "worldly" punishment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bier Meister Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 But if I am certain that there is no supreme being or power, then I have absolutely no incentive to not exploit any opportunity that I think I can get away with (after controlling for the potential of worldly sanctioning by markets, lawsuits, prison, etc.) 1388701[/snapback] ah..... back to motivation for behavior. fear of god's wrath vs. doing good for the sake of good. DING DING DING. It kills me that some religious people pick and choose when the christian moral and ethical applies and when it doesn't. Business, socially, etc. It's hard not to view many as hypocritical. 1388702[/snapback] yahtzee! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 Pascal's Wager is the most reprehensible ethical strategy out there. 1388710[/snapback] Economically, Pascal's Wager is a good game-theoretic strategy where the person chooses not to play a weakly-dominated strategy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 ah..... back to motivation for behavior. fear of god's wrath vs. doing good for the sake of good. 1388714[/snapback] What is the motivation of any behavior? A rational person would look at the costs and benefits of any action and then choose the path where the net expected benefits are highest. (And the sanctioning doesn't have to be a fear of an angry god's wrath, it could be that the person wants to do good because they want to please their god) I'll ask again, what motivation does an atheist have to "do good just for the sake of doing good"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 Hmmm... I may have to rename my business, "There Is No God Plumbing". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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