Chavez Posted March 26, 2006 Author Share Posted March 26, 2006 I'll keep trotting it out until somebody explains to me why in the world an atheist wouldn't attempt to exploit "opportunities" that they thought they could get away with without "worldly" punishment. 1388711[/snapback] Are we talking about illegalities or merely something like, say, lot fees or selling whole life insurance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted March 26, 2006 Author Share Posted March 26, 2006 Economically, Pascal's Wager is a good game-theoretic strategy where the person chooses not to play a weakly-dominated strategy. 1388716[/snapback] Economics and ethics are not the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted March 26, 2006 Author Share Posted March 26, 2006 I'll ask again, what motivation does an atheist have to "do good just for the sake of doing good"? 1388717[/snapback] The Golden Rule (which I realize is in the Bible but it's the most bedrock ethical principle out there) or maybe just simple human empathy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 The Golden Rule (which I realize is in the Bible but it's the most bedrock ethical principle out there) or maybe just simple human empathy. 1388723[/snapback] As Paul McCartney said, "And in the end... the love you take is equal to the love that you make." Same principle as the Golden Rule, but it's a lot cooler than the bible. You don't have to be religious to believe in Abbey Road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 Economics and ethics are not the same thing. 1388722[/snapback] I am arguing (er... discussing) in this thread from the point of view of an economist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bier Meister Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 What is the motivation of any behavior? A rational person would look at the costs and benefits of any action and then choose the path where the net expected benefits are highest. (And the sanctioning doesn't have to be a fear of an angry god's wrath, it could be that the person wants to do good because they want to please their god) I'll ask again, what motivation does an atheist have to "do good just for the sake of doing good"? 1388717[/snapback] god's wrath= judgement (i thought of it as both sides of the fence). motivation will vary from person to person. let's take an economic exchange......... the range i could see is: if i don't act "good" consequences could be anything from not doing future business to having to pay restitution, to going to jail. if i act "good," i can have future dealings with this other person/corporation (whatever). with "honorable" transactions, can gain new business via word of mouth, etc. some people just feel good for acting good(respect for universal principles). and a couple of others: social consciousness, welfare for others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted March 26, 2006 Author Share Posted March 26, 2006 As Paul McCartney said, "And in the end... the love you take is equal to the love that you make." Same principle as the Golden Rule, but it's a lot cooler than the bible. You don't have to be religious to believe in Abbey Road. 1388728[/snapback] So I see I'm not really on ignore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montster Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 I'll keep trotting it out until somebody explains to me why in the world an atheist wouldn't attempt to exploit "opportunities" that they thought they could get away with without "worldly" punishment. 1388711[/snapback] I'll ask again, what motivation does an atheist have to "do good just for the sake of doing good"? 1388717[/snapback] are you asking this in the context where you're deciding whether to enter into a deal with another person, and all you know about that person is he's an atheist? or are you actually saying that it's impossible for an atheist to be considered ethical? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 As Paul McCartney said, "And in the end... the love you take is equal to the love that you make." Same principle as the Golden Rule, but it's a lot cooler than the bible. You don't have to be religious to believe in Abbey Road. 1388728[/snapback] and my question is: why would an atheist believe in the Golden Rule? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted March 26, 2006 Author Share Posted March 26, 2006 I am arguing (er... discussing) in this thread from the point of view of an economist. 1388730[/snapback] While Pascal's Wager may be able to be applied in an economic sense, in this case we are discussing ethics, which is a whole 'nother ballgame. Leave yer John Maynard Keynes biography at the office on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted March 26, 2006 Author Share Posted March 26, 2006 and my question is: why would an atheist believe in the Golden Rule? 1388737[/snapback] Why wouldn't one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 or are you actually saying that it's impossible for an atheist to be considered ethical? 1388735[/snapback] no, I'm not saying that at all But I do have a hard time figuring out why an atheist would behave in an ethical fashion if they could get away with acting unethically. (And I have a hard time figuring it out because for years I have been asking this question and no one has ever satisfactorily answered it. Saying that people feel good when they act good doesn't explain why they might feel good about acting good.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 and my question is: why would an atheist believe in the Golden Rule? 1388737[/snapback] Because it's not biblical, and it doesn't require a belief in God? I believe in it because I perceive it happening in my life. I don't perceive a magical invisible man bellowing commandments from the sky in my life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 Why wouldn't one? 1388740[/snapback] because it is very likely that a person can make himself better off in this world by not following it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted March 26, 2006 Author Share Posted March 26, 2006 because it is very likely that a person can make himself better off in this world by not following it 1388744[/snapback] As many a purported Christian has proven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 As many a purported Christian has proven. 1388745[/snapback] that seriously is exactly my point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted March 26, 2006 Author Share Posted March 26, 2006 Wow, there's a veritable Murderer's Row typing away right now (Furd, Atomic, Ursa...with wiegie, whomper, and billay on deck) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 because it is very likely that a person can make himself better off in this world by not following it 1388744[/snapback] Conscience, empathy, and guilt are not religious concepts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecerwin Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 Okay, so usually I am not one to be caught watching that tv show "trading spouses" but I did catch one episode where one woman was so closed minded because of religion. One family (D'AMICO-FLISHER FAMILY) was very laid back, peace loving, and fairly hippiesh. They were very accepting and loving people. The other family (PERRIN FAMILY) was the religious crazy family. It wasn't so much the family that was crazy,it was the mom. She went crazy living with the laid back household. She went so far as to demonize the gargoyle statues in the backyard. Crazy. To make the story short, I don't understand why the religious fanatics are so closed minded about not conforming into their religon. It seems a lot of the worlds problems stem from religious differences. Since I didn't want to type all that much about what else went on in the episode the links follow: Trading Spouses episode 201 Trading Spouses episode 202 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 and my question is: why would an atheist believe in the Golden Rule? 1388737[/snapback] Because belief in the Golden Rule is totally divorced from religion. I know you are coming at this from a logical economics viewpoint, but that fails to take account of emotion and the logical irrationality that is built into human beings. Perhaps an atheist is likely to be a Golden Rule believer because the atheist believes that the cause of human progress would be accelerated by the demise of organized religion and the conversion of more people to the doctrine of humanistic cooperation in the here and now, which is really what the Golden Rule is all about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bier Meister Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 wieg...i've answered Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 because it is very likely that a person can make himself better off in this world by not following it 1388744[/snapback] But that presupposes that all people are at core selfish and this is demonstrably untrue. Logically, perhaps they should be, but they're not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furd Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 Methinks that there is not much of a correlation between a belief in a supernatural being and behavior. I bet you that if I went to down the road to Jackon Prison and axed the "residents" about their beliefs, you would not find a significant difference in the number of atheists than in the population as a whole. Why do people "do the right thing?" I'm not sure, but I am pretty confident that, for the overwhelming number of people, that it doesn't have much to do with fear of an afterlife. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 But that presupposes that all people are at core selfish and this is demonstrably untrue. Logically, perhaps they should be, but they're not. 1388752[/snapback] Economics as a discipline does indeed have as its first assumption that people are self-interested and that they will choose the actions that give themselves the most utility (happiness)--and guess what, economic models based on this assumption work better than any other models of human behavior. (note that "self-interested" is not quite the same as selfish, but the terms aren't completely dissimiliar) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 god's wrath= judgement (i thought of it as both sides of the fence). motivation will vary from person to person. let's take an economic exchange......... the range i could see is: if i don't act "good" consequences could be anything from not doing future business to having to pay restitution, to going to jail. if i act "good," i can have future dealings with this other person/corporation (whatever). with "honorable" transactions, can gain new business via word of mouth, etc. some people just feel good for acting good(respect for universal principles). and a couple of others: social consciousness, welfare for others. 1388731[/snapback] this doesn't answer my question of what motivation does an atheist have to "do good just for the sake of doing good"? you have to explain why atheists might feel good about acting good, or why they might have a social consciousness or be concerned about others' welfare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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