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Chavez

"I don't trust nobody who don't love Jesus"

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my point is that it might be impossible for a society composed of atheists to function well for a significant period of time as the society will be inclined to degrade towards a Hobbesian world of all against all.

 

 

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I don't think the correlation between atheism and ultra motivated self interest is as strong as you intimate.

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Not surprising considering the penalties for overt non-belief before then.  In Islam, those penalties still exist, of course.

 

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...and people like Fred Phelps and Pat Robertson wish they still existed in Christianity.

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There have been thousands of societies that sprang up across the world over the course of human history--it is telling that none of them seem to have been organized under atheism.

 

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Most of the thousands lived in caves and rode buck nekkid on zebras.

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There have been thousands of societies that sprang up across the world over the course of human history--it is telling that none of them seem to have been organized under atheism.

 

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Ah, but as we know, those thousands of societies sprang from few roots.

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Why don't we just leave it at 'it's possible there is a God, but it's possible there is not a God'? That way all of the Christians can stop pestering everyone to join them or live eternity suffering their decision. I think it's pathetic to try and scare people to join your 'group' shall I say, but let people be who they want to be and believe what they want to believe. Yeah, the Bible has many great guidelines for which people should live by, but by no means should you take everything in that book literally. :D It's written by MEN! Nothing I have ever seen in my entire life that was created by a man was ever perfect or right 100%. Don't be a fool and believe everything you read or see. Take the good from it and forget about the bull shucks. Morals are good. The unjust are bad. Fools are even worse. :D

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  It's written by MEN! Nothing I have ever seen in my entire life that was created by a man was ever perfect or right 100%.

 

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It was written by men who were channeling the divine, and don't you forget it, buster.

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It was written by men who were channeling the divine, and don't you forget it, buster.

 

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:D

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I don't think the correlation between atheism and ultra motivated self interest is as strong as you intimate.

 

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I actually agree. I think that most atheists probably behave as ethically as most theists. However, I'm not sure if this is tenable in the long-run. It only takes a few people to screw things up and start acting opportunistically. If I am a theist and somebody takes advantage of me, I still might not take advantage of him back because it isn't the right thing to do. But if I am an atheist and people around me start to break the "social contract" that we have with one-another, I will have a greater incentive to break the "contract" myself and not treat other people in a good way.

 

In other words, regardless of religion, if everyone is cooperating, it might make sense for me to cooperate too. But if people stop cooperating, then I will have much less incentive to cooperate either. And if people stop cooperating, society will not function as well.

 

(note: "cooperate" could be taken to mean "behave ethically")

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Why don't we just leave it at 'it's possible there is a God, but it's possible there is not a God'? That way all of the Christians can stop pestering everyone to join them or live eternity suffering their decision. I think it's pathetic to try and scare people to join your 'group' shall I say, but let people be who they want to be and believe what they want to believe. Yeah, the Bible has many great guidelines for which people should live by, but by no means should you take everything in that book literally.  :D  It's written by MEN! Nothing I have ever seen in my entire life that was created by a man was ever perfect or right 100%. Don't be a fool and believe everything you read or see. Take the good from it and forget about the bull shucks. Morals are good. The unjust are bad. Fools are even worse.  :D

 

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this has nothing to do with this thread

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If I am a theist and somebody takes advantage of me, I still might not take advantage of him back because it isn't the right thing to do.  But if I am an atheist and people around me start to break the "social contract" that we have with one-another, I will have a greater incentive to break the "contract" myself and not treat other people in a good way.

(note: "cooperate" could be taken to mean "behave ethically")

 

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The problem with this is that you are taking assumptions and using it as a biased basis for an argument that doesn't necessarily have any truth to it. Yeah, it is possible a small portion of athiests might act like this, but most will not. It is also possible religious people will react the same way if 'others' break some sort of social contract.

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It only takes a few people to screw things up and start acting opportunistically.  If I am a theist and somebody takes advantage of me, I still might not take advantage of him back because it isn't the right thing to do.  But if I am an atheist and people around me start to break the "social contract" that we have with one-another, I will have a greater incentive to break the "contract" myself and not treat other people in a good way.

 

In other words, regardless of religion, if everyone is cooperating, it might make sense for me to cooperate too.  But if people stop cooperating, then I will have much less incentive to cooperate either.  And if people stop cooperating, society will not function as well.

 

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The thing is if the majority have decided to attempt to maintain the social contract, censure of some sort - be it legal, economic, or physical - against those breaking it will serve to enforce the status quo as effectively as belief in some bearded fellow in the sky.

 

The converse of your "worst case athesit scenario" is that if a non-believer exists in a theistic society and stops cooperating, absent a similar punitive system as would exist in an atheistic society, what are they gonna do - "he'll get his when Grabthar judges him in the afterlife, yeah!"

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If you assume that athiests lack of belief in the divine imparts with it a lack of motivation to try and change or manipulate your own reality, then its not such a leap to assume that an atheist society would fail. Historically, atheists have not cared enough to bind themselves together (though society has not put them in such peril to do so) tho I'm not sure that it isn't better to say that an "atheist society" is highly unlikely to emerge, rather than likely to fail

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I actually agree.  I think that most atheists probably behave as ethically as most theists.  However, I'm not sure if this is tenable in the long-run.  It only takes a few people to screw things up and start acting opportunistically.  If I am a theist and somebody takes advantage of me, I still might not take advantage of him back because it isn't the right thing to do.  But if I am an atheist and people around me start to break the "social contract" that we have with one-another, I will have a greater incentive to break the "contract" myself and not treat other people in a good way.

 

In other words, regardless of religion, if everyone is cooperating, it might make sense for me to cooperate too.  But if people stop cooperating, then I will have much less incentive to cooperate either.  And if people stop cooperating, society will not function as well.

 

(note: "cooperate" could be taken to mean "behave ethically")

 

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when people stop cooperating or following the contract, i believe religion will only influence a small % of people positively... the rest will be hit and miss..... we already see gross misbehavior by the religious (some even by the church leaders) and we are not living in extreme times.

Edited by Bier Meister

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this has nothing to do with this thread

 

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"I don't trust nobody who don't love Jesus, says Americans" is the title of this Post. I was simply stating my opinion about whether or not Americans who don't trust non-God believers is at all an intelligent thing to do. Has anyone ever heard the saying, "don't put all of your marbles in one basket". All I am saying is to look at other possibilities because not any one PERSON (not just American) can be 100% sure about much of anything.

:D Good try though, sorry if the last post hurt your feelings.

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Good try though, sorry if the last post hurt your feelings.

 

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yes, my feelings were deeply hurt

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wiegie is fragile like a spring flower.

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:D Good try though, sorry if the last post hurt your feelings.

 

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somehow, i don't think his feelings are hurt.

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somehow, i don't think his feelings are hurt.

 

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You think? :D

 

I was being facetious

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You think?  :D

 

I was being facetious

 

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does that mean that you aren't sorry for hurting my feelings? :D

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does that mean that you aren't sorry for hurting my feelings?  :D

 

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How would my previous statement have in any way hurt your feelings? :D

I love America and its free speech laws! :D

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How would my previous statement have in any way hurt your feelings?  :D

I love America and its free speech laws!  :D

 

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so this atheist is disingenuous......

 

 

i now see why you don't trust em wieg.

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How would my previous statement have in any way hurt your feelings? 

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"If you pr|ck us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die?

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and if you wrong us, shall we not revenge?"

 

:D

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Living here in the bible belt in small town Tennessee I find that southernors take the eye for a eye and tooth for a tooth saying way to literal. especially the tooth for a tooth thing. :D

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"If you pr|ck us, do we not bleed?  If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die?

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and if you wrong us, shall we not revenge?"

 

:D

 

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What? :D

 

LOL. I never wronged anyone. I just stated an opinion.

 

Is that wrong? :D

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What? :D

 

LOL. I never wronged anyone. I just stated an opinion.

 

Is that wrong?  :D

 

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grunt, just so you know, facetiousness works in both directions

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