tonorator Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 (edited) So how do you decide what verses to take litererally and which to take figuratively? This has always came across a little too convenient and self-righteous to me. 1414116[/snapback] believe me, i'm no expert and have those that i do not understand. i'm committed to, however, doing my own research and trying to understand the context behind each passage vs. taking each literally. is it a challenge? heck yes! am i a master, heck no! but these are things i now strive to understand better vs. things i identify to use as ammo to shoot down the bible (what i used to do). the reason for my change? the forgiving, powerful story of jesus that transcends all individual passages. i wouldn't allow myself that separation before, which prohibited me from truly studying what is at the core of christianity ... Jesus Christ. starting from Him and working out changed everything. oh, and Edited April 11, 2006 by tonorator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonorator Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 But you're picking and choosing which bits of the Bible to accept, are you not? Otherwise it must surely be right to stone adulterers to death and all manner of other things, not to mention the whole Adam and Eve farrago. 1414118[/snapback] Jesus clearly stated, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone." with Jesus came the forgiveness of sin though grace and love, not condemnation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 believe me, i'm no expert and have those that i do not understand. i'm committed to, however, doing my own research and trying to understand the context behind each passage vs. taking each literally. is it a challenge? heck yes! am i a master, heck no! but these are things i now strive to understand better 1414131[/snapback] That makes sense in itself, but you just prefaced a literal interpretation/belief of two specific verses as a necessity to accepting Jesus as the son of God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 But you're picking and choosing which bits of the Bible to accept, are you not? Otherwise it must surely be right to stone adulterers to death and all manner of other things, not to mention the whole Adam and Eve farrago. 1414118[/snapback] That's right. Actually Jesus abolished the old laws when he claimed to be the Lord, but many christians do cherry pick laws they like for various reasons. Jesus never mentioned it. In fact he associated with what were considered some of the worst people of his day yet loved them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 Jesus clearly stated, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone." with Jesus came the forgiveness of sin though grace and love, not condemnation. 1414140[/snapback] That is right. He was the Prince of Peace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 That's right. Actually Jesus abolished the old laws when he claimed to be the Lord, but many christians do cherry pick laws they like for various reasons. Jesus never mentioned it. In fact he associated with what were considered some of the worst people of his day yet loved them. 1414144[/snapback] Except the moneylenders, who he gave a good kicking to. Kind of ironic, given the state of the Republican Party that the fundie Christians admire so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonorator Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 good stuff here ... First, Christians honor the Old Testament, but they also take this multifaceted document in its historical context. The Torah was part and parcel of its culture. It either reflects its culture (like some architectural features of the tabernacle), or it improves on its culture (ethical monotheism). Not all of the old law applies to today’s world. Second, Christians look back at the Old Testament through the vision of Jesus. It is true that the Old Testament endorses the stoning of adulterers (Lev. 20:10; Deut. 22:22), and other punishments for fornicators, including a monetary fine and stoning, depending on the circumstances (Ex. 22:16-17; Deut. 22:23-26; 28-29). However, for Christians, Jesus’ interpretation of these laws is final. He takes away their sharp sting with his death on the cross and by his sinless life and divine love. Moreover, it should be pointed out that even the Old Testament itself is silent on the actual carrying out of the punishment of stoning adulterers and fornicators. The rabbis acknowledge this. And curiously so does the Muslim scholar Maududi, although he says that the ancient Hebrews wrongly fell short of carrying out the divine decree (3:293-94). Islam is here to rectify this shortcoming, so the later religion is superior, as he says. It is breathtaking to watch traditional Muslims like Maududi blithely restoring archaic laws to society today. Jesus came to fulfill the law or Torah, not to abolish it (Matthew 5:17). He fulfills it in at least three ways, but the one we look at here takes away the law’s severe punishments. This benefits all of society, especially today. Jesus fulfills the law by taking on himself the penalty for our sins. The Torah is filled with specific punishments for specific sins, but his death on the cross satisfies and propitiates divine wrath that is directed at our sins—this is the Christian doctrine of the atonement. It is for this reason that a Christian could never give up this doctrine and must totally reject Muhammad’s odd view that Christ never died on the cross, but another man took his place (Sura 4:157). Muhammad’s belief is completely misguided. Christ’s death is God’s gift to us. We are saved and on our way to heaven, not based on our own works, but on Christ’s good work on the cross. Therefore, those who trust in Christ do not have to pay the penalty for their sins. full article here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonorator Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 That makes sense in itself, but you just prefaced a literal interpretation/belief of two specific verses as a necessity to accepting Jesus as the son of God. 1414141[/snapback] as i said, some of scripture seems clear and understandable and other passages make you wonder what is going on. the fact that Jesus clearly identifies himself as the son of God removes doubt on that one. other passages are not quite as clear ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliaz Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 (edited) dudes, who cares. In the grand scheme of things, this doesn’t mean crap cept the government is crooked. Don’t' ask me how that is related to this but it is. There are two reasons why I don't care about the crap. 1. I agree, if I want to call a FA(G) a FA(G) that is my right and they can suck on my hairy bean bag if they think I'll recognize any lawsuit pulled up on me for doing it. 2. Who care, they are hard core bible bashers who think the earth is only 6,000 years old. shiiiit let them draw all the attention to themselves and look foolish it draws the government’s attention away from Camp Cliaz. Edited April 11, 2006 by cliaz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonorator Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 nice passage here ... Second, Jesus goes beyond pointing out the spiritual root cause, and offers a spiritual solution, which is clarified in the Gospel of John 8:1-11. This passage says that some religious leaders, wanting to trap Jesus between his message of love and forgiveness and his respect for the Torah, brought a woman caught in adultery and made her stand in their midst. They reminded Jesus that the law of Moses orders that she should be stoned. He stooped down and wrote in the dirt, contemplating. They kept questioning him, perhaps stones in hand. What would he do? He then spoke the famous lines: “He who is without sin should throw the first stone” (v. 7). One by one, from the oldest to the youngest, the accusers left. Alone with her, Jesus straightened up and asked her: “’Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?’ ‘No one, sir,’ she said. ‘Then neither do I condemn you.’ Jesus declared, ‘Go and leave your life of sin’” (vv. 10-11). The spiritual solution is forgiveness without condemnation. Jesus never intended to reinstitute the punishment of stoning sinners, or even their flogging, as Muhammad would like to reinstitute an old-new law. Jesus intended to rise above such shallow solutions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clubfoothead Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 Religions aren't very good at tolerating anything that disagrees with themor questions their teachings. Look it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino4ever Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 dudes, who cares. In the grand scheme of things, this doesn’t mean crap cept the government is crooked. Don’t' ask me how that is related to this but it is. There are two reasons why I don't care about the crap. 1. I agree, if I want to call a FA(G) a FA(G) that is my right and they can suck on my hairy bean bag if they think I'll recognize any lawsuit pulled up on me for doing it. 2. Who care, they are hard core bible bashers who think the earth is only 6,000 years old. shiiiit let them draw all the attention to themselves and look foolish it draws the government’s attention away from Camp Cliaz. 1414153[/snapback] This I think is the point of the lawsuit by the Christians. Who cares? We all should, because what is going down and what is being pushed for is that any outspoken word that does not agree with homosexuality or accepts it will be eventually classified as a hate crime. How far away do you really think we are from that? I for one as a christian and believing in the bible and what is coming am concerned over that. The persecution that I know is coming for christians is going to be preceeded by these little court cases. We as christians seem to be losing all our rights as others gain theirs. It's a weird game. Everyone seems to be in objection to everything religion stands for because religion does impose a certain lifestyle to be adherred to. God does teach that blessings come from following his commandments. I don't believe that if Jesus had arrived today, rather than 2000 years ago, it would be much different than it is now. I think Jesus would still be hanging out with the sinners and showing them the love of God while he criticized the outspoken christians who bash sinners over their head with their sin. I think there has been a shift in how our society is beginning to look at religion in a whole due to the battles that are beginning to rage over a non-christians right to not have to look at, or hear anything christian. But as he wins his right, we lose ours in a way. I feel this article is about some christians finally saying, there has to be a middle somewhere. You can't take away all our freedoms to give a distinct minority theirs <like the guy who didn't want to see the ten commandments displayed in GA i think> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 The persecution that I know is coming for christians is going to be preceeded by these little court cases. We as christians seem to be losing all our rights as others gain theirs. 1414174[/snapback] What rights are you losing, exactly? And you can't possibly be serious about being persecuted. What is it that Christians feel this need to say they're oppressed all the time? All people like me ask is that you keep your religion to yourself and don't demand that I adhere to it. FWIW, I ask exactly the same of homosexuals and pretty much everybody else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbmcdonald Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 my point is that what you describe above is deviant. we have defined it as such and put in laws to prevent it. 1413688[/snapback] Well I will tell you that it is against the law in Texas to use a vibrator. However, if my wife and I choose to do so, and someone comes busting in my bedroom and tries to arrest us for it, someone is not going to leave the room alive. There are those that would define oral sex as deviant, or sex in any position other than missionary as deviant, and there are states that have laws against them. Some would argue that sex for any purpose other than having children is deviant. So where does it stop? Or where does it start? You may believe that you need the Government to tell you what it is ok for you and any number of other consenting human adults do in your bedroom. I however, do not. By the way, just because some number of ***holes passes a law, doesn’t mean something is deviant, immoral or wrong any more than some number of 2ssholes passing a law makes owning a slave normal, moral or right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Holy Roller Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 there are a lot of happenings in the old testament that i struggle with ... but what overshadows those issues is the story of jesus christ in the new testament. for many, many years i dismissed all of christianity because of my dismay for the teachings in the old testament, the confusing nature of the bible, the notion that the bible read more like a book of fairy tales vs. a practical guide to live your life, the fact that i couldn't see God or know that He was real, and on and on. i ripped anyone who became a christian as someone living in a fantasy world. it was only after digging into the life of jesus that my heart changed. i won't put my full testimony here, but suffice it to say that i went from one of the biggest naysayers and doubters to having my heart opened up to the life of christ, how he lived, what he said, and why he died. i'd be happy to PM or talk to anyone who would want to hear it. after you go through the new testament completely, it casts the old in a very different light. you start to see that all the activity and practices in the old testament were there to support the coming of the messiah. i won't say i understand all of it or can piece it all together perfectly, but i dedicated myself to research and a personal journey to find my truths, and i was transformed. it is funny that many naysayers and athiests/agnostics, when they truly dig in and do their research, turn out to be christians. not all, but many. c.s. lewis and lee strobel are two that i admire. strobel is an attorney that went out to disprove religion, and ended up writing 'the case for christ.' lewis was an athiest for most of his life, and then became one of our most notable christians. there's no reason to lose my temper - i actually love these discussions. for most of my life, i was on the other side, so i know many/all the arguments. i'm only coming up on 2 years of accepting christ into my heart, so i'm still quite the newbie. 1414043[/snapback] Welcome, brother! God bless you richly! I've enjoyed this thread (the parts that I can understand anyways) mostly for your reasoned and sensible posts. I became a Christian in 1974 and was fortunate enough to have been a part of a wonderful ministry that truly pointed to Christ as the example we should follow. I don't have room to hate. The spirit that God placed in me constrains me to be more Christ-like everyday and to turn away from my fleshly (earthly) ways. It sounds like God's spirit has found a place in your heart and you are honoring (and believing) was God wants for you in your life. Keep the faith, brother! One day I am sure we will know more fully all we need to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clubfoothead Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 I heard an interesting theory the other day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino4ever Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 What rights are you losing, exactly? And you can't possibly be serious about being persecuted. What is it that Christians feel this need to say they're oppressed all the time? All people like me ask is that you keep your religion to yourself and don't demand that I adhere to it. FWIW, I ask exactly the same of homosexuals and pretty much everybody else. 1414178[/snapback] Some christians are persecuted too. Don't get me wrong, we've defenitely given more than we've taken. I guess I mean those of us who are trying to live the life exemplified by Christ find ourselves grouped together with the oppressors and bullhorns and spend a lot of time getting the earful for what they've said. I'm sure there is a persecution to be found anywhere in these sensitive subjects. I've often wanted to ask this question and never really had the chance. When you say the word Christian with the anger that drips from it, who are you talking about in general? What is the description of the person you are talking about? And is that the majority of God believers you meet? Do you find all denominations under christianity to be this way or just certain ones? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clubfoothead Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 I've often wanted to ask this question and never really had the chance. When you say the word Christian with the anger that drips from it, who are you talking about in general? What is the description of the person you are talking about? And is that the majority of God believers you meet? Do you find all denominations under christianity to be this way or just certain ones? 1414196[/snapback] The overtness. Seems like a rather personal matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montster Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 This I think is the point of the lawsuit by the Christians. Who cares? We all should, because what is going down and what is being pushed for is that any outspoken word that does not agree with homosexuality or accepts it will be eventually classified as a hate crime. How far away do you really think we are from that? I for one as a christian and believing in the bible and what is coming am concerned over that. The persecution that I know is coming for christians is going to be preceeded by these little court cases. We as christians seem to be losing all our rights as others gain theirs. It's a weird game. Everyone seems to be in objection to everything religion stands for because religion does impose a certain lifestyle to be adherred to. God does teach that blessings come from following his commandments. you seriously believe this? america has never had a non-christian president. the vast, overwhelming majority of our lawmakers and judges have been christian. the majority of the country has been christian since america was born. so if you think you're losing your "rights," go tell it to all the christians you helped vote into government. and, really, i'm all for free speech, but with everything going on today, is it really the right to gay-bash that you hold so dear? I think there has been a shift in how our society is beginning to look at religion in a whole due to the battles that are beginning to rage over a non-christians right to not have to look at, or hear anything christian. But as he wins his right, we lose ours in a way. I feel this article is about some christians finally saying, there has to be a middle somewhere. You can't take away all our freedoms to give a distinct minority theirs <like the guy who didn't want to see the ten commandments displayed in GA i think> 1414174[/snapback] inherent in the function of a democracy is to protect the interests of the minority. tell me again, which freedoms have you lost so that gays can enjoy instead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10g_DBA Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 Welcome, brother! God bless you richly! I've enjoyed this thread (the parts that I can understand anyways) mostly for your reasoned and sensible posts. I became a Christian in 1974 and was fortunate enough to have been a part of a wonderful ministry that truly pointed to Christ as the example we should follow. I don't have room to hate. The spirit that God placed in me constrains me to be more Christ-like everyday and to turn away from my fleshly (earthly) ways. It sounds like God's spirit has found a place in your heart and you are honoring (and believing) was God wants for you in your life. Keep the faith, brother! One day I am sure we will know more fully all we need to know. 1414187[/snapback] +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino4ever Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 The overtness. Seems like a rather personal matter. 1414199[/snapback] By that do you mean the outspokeness and judgement that christians put forth on this subject because others see it as a personal matter that shouldn't be judged by others. I know there are countries around the world that look at Americans as overt and interferring because of our judgement of what should be acceptable. As a country we feel like we live better and go to promote that democracy where we see need. I would say a lot of christians are doing the same thing on a spiritual level as we know the harm that can be done spiritually by allowing the things we stand against to go unchallenged. The problem always is that we always have someone saying it wrong somehow and not getting the true point across and coming off as bashers instead of understanding and compassionate. For too long, it's always been those that have gotten the attention. Is that the majority of the religious people you meet or only a few? I honestly would like to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 I've often wanted to ask this question and never really had the chance. When you say the word Christian with the anger that drips from it, who are you talking about in general? What is the description of the person you are talking about? And is that the majority of God believers you meet? Do you find all denominations under christianity to be this way or just certain ones? 1414196[/snapback] I think of three distinct groups. One is the christian (small c) that defines your religion on paper. I'm a christian, for example. The next is the group that try to live their lives like Christ, much as you, Tonorator and the Roller appear to do. The third group are just noxious and have as much to do with Christ as I do with Allah. These are the ones that have far more in common with the grim prophets of the OT, the ones that are always off to Bible camp, the ones that won't let their kids play with the kids of non-churchgoers, the ones that condemn everyone and everything, the ones that want to tell me, even force me, to live their way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clubfoothead Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 By that do you mean the outspokeness and judgement that christians put forth on this subject because others see it as a personal matter that shouldn't be judged by others. I know there are countries around the world that look at Americans as overt and interferring because of our judgement of what should be acceptable. As a country we feel like we live better and go to promote that democracy where we see need. I would say a lot of christians are doing the same thing on a spiritual level as we know the harm that can be done spiritually by allowing the things we stand against to go unchallenged. The problem always is that we always have someone saying it wrong somehow and not getting the true point across and coming off as bashers instead of understanding and compassionate. For too long, it's always been those that have gotten the attention. Is that the majority of the religious people you meet or only a few? I honestly would like to know. 1414210[/snapback] I'd like it to be kept seperate from their politics. I understand it can't be but you asked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonorator Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 You may believe that you need the Government to tell you what it is ok for you and any number of other consenting human adults do in your bedroom. I however, do not. 1414186[/snapback] this completely and totally misses my point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino4ever Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 I think of three distinct groups. One is the christian (small c) that defines your religion on paper. I'm a christian, for example. The next is the group that try to live their lives like Christ, much as you, Tonorator and the Roller appear to do. The third group are just noxious and have as much to do with Christ as I do with Allah. These are the ones that have far more in common with the grim prophets of the OT, the ones that are always off to Bible camp, the ones that won't let their kids play with the kids of non-churchgoers, the ones that condemn everyone and everything, the ones that want to tell me, even force me, to live their way. 1414212[/snapback] this is what i was searching for. this is the persecution i deal with. and in comparison to a homosexual, it is trivial. don't get me wrong there. I hate being lumped into that third group everytime a discussion involving religion comes up. Like i said b4, if Jesus was here today I think he would be whipping them in the temple square for their hypocriticalness. Isn't that the real anger button. The hypocrisy of their words. I've often discovered in my conversations with those who are seeking to truly know God that is all they think God is. That which they see displayed by the hypocrites which somehow have all the media time and make the headlines. Jesus taught humility so I'm sure that will never change as most of us won't really challenge that which is changing. That's what I thought I saw in the original article that started this thread. Some that were actually going to challenge the free speech no matter what. I do have a fear that one day speaking against homosexuality can constitue a hate crime. That's a fine line to cross. I remember the movie the American President where the president says you have to love America cause it is advanced citizenship. You have to accept someone speaking out against that which you hold most dear and whose words makes your blood boil and would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of your voice. I don't think I'm processing all my thoughts coherently the way I feel them. It's late. And I'm off to bed. Would love to stay up and continue this one. Good night and Shalom! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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