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Chavez

Being Tolerant Oppresses Christians

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well i'm pretty sure abortion law can't apply to men, gay marriage laws can't apply to straight people, and (not to get all skinsy) laws about scientific research can't really apply to people who think jesus rode around on a brontosaurus.

 

so that's exactly my point.  these folks are all fired up about "moral" issues that do not apply to them.  the very definition of sanctimony, indeed.

 

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got the point. i would submit, however, that our lawmakers have to decide things for others every day, guided by what they believe is right and just ... and in our great country, we can elect them to speak for us as well.

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You vote for people and laws that enact your religious views as state law.  You insist on this discrimintory definition of marriage soley because you believe your religion forbids it.  This isn't like abortion where you can say you're protecting the rights of an unborn child.  You don't want to protect anyone's rights - you only want to mske sure that the government denies them to a certain group based on your religious beliefs. 

 

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not true again. i primarily support the man/woman marriage because it is the foundation for how we keep on as a species. father and mother raising the children in a family that is supported and encouraged by society. sure, many marriages don't end up with children, but the i believe the construct only needs to exists to promote and support our families.

 

there is nothing stopping two people who love each other and are committed to each other from enjoying a long and happy life together. they are free to make that choice ... man/man, man/woman, or woman/woman.

 

the only thing left are all of the benefits and things that a married couple gets that gay couples want too. i have no problem going down the list and finding ways to offer them what they are missing in terms of cash and health care. i've already said i support any two people adopting a child should they meet all requirements and if they do, they should be supported in that endeavor as well.

 

to redefine marriage, however, is not needed to accomplish these goals.

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got the point.  i would submit, however, that our lawmakers have to decide things for others every day, guided by what they believe is right and just ... and in our great country, we can elect them to speak for us as well.

 

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yeah yeah, of course. but my argument is that "christians" who express their "moral righteousness" by publicly expounding on issues that don't affect them are running tragically afoul of the REAL central tenets of christian teaching. that particular kind of "moral righteousness" is EXACTLY what was being described in the focus on the family story i was talking about, and EXACTLY what is taking place in this thread with regard to gay marriage.

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yeah yeah, of course.  but my argument is that "christians" who express their "moral righteousness" by publicly expounding on issues that don't affect them are running tragically afoul of the REAL central tenets of christian teaching.  that particular kind of "moral righteousness" is EXACTLY what was being described in the focus on the family story i was talking about, and EXACTLY what is taking place in this thread with regard to gay marriage.

 

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but then no one could speak out on any topic unless it directly affected them. is that what you support?

 

the religious groups speak out on what they think is right. other groups do so as well. my only hope is that it can be done in a peaceful manner and in our country, democracy will play out. i don't fault those for standing up for what they believe in. lincoln wanted slaves to be free men, but he was never a slave ...

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but then no one could speak out on any topic unless it directly affected them.  is that what you support?

 

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People should encourage laws that are fair and comport with the notions of freedom that are embodied in our Constitution.

 

People should not speak out to encourage laws that deny rights to people who are not harming anyone else.

 

 

 

 

Note: Certainly everyone can speak out about anything and everything they want, even if doing so shows that they hate America. Like you do.

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Note:  Certainly everyone can speak out about anything and everything they want, even if doing so shows that they hate America.  Like you do.

 

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:D

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but then no one could speak out on any topic unless it directly affected them.  is that what you support?

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well first of all, it's not a matter of could, it's a matter of should. i'm clearly not trying to censor anyone. i am simply saying, yet again (i don't know how i can put it much simpler) that a moralism which focuses primarily on issues that affect others (such as that expressed by most politically active evangelicals) is decidedly "unchristian". public piety generally is also unchristian. legalism intended to exclude others is very unchristian. i'm not saying these things should be illegal, i'm saying they crap on just about everything jesus tried to teach the world about how best to honor god.

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a moralism which focuses primarily on issues that affect others

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are there any that do not focus on issues that affect others?

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are there any that do not focus on issues that affect others?

 

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Homos wanting to get married? :D

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Homos wanting to get married?  :D

 

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:D

 

he was seemingly stating that the best moralisms are those that don't involve the actions of others ... i'm not aware of any that exist.

 

by the way, your dancing banana is a momo.

Edited by tonorator

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QUOTE(Azazello1313 @ 4/12/06 1:42pm)

a moralism which focuses primarily on issues that affect others

are there any that do not focus on issues that affect others?

 

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well, yeah. the one espoused by jesus, for one. love god with your whole heart. love your neighbor, and do not sin, in action or in your heart, against him. in your actions toward others, above all be humble, knowing your own sin, and resist the temptation to judge and to feel pride and self-righteousness. do not use biblical legalism to slam the doors of heaven in peoples' faces, but instead focus on the wieghtier matters of the law: justice, mercy and faith.

 

edit: the focus of jesus' moralism is almost entirely inward, and the strictest warnings are issued against a moralism that projects outward.

Edited by Azazello1313

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:D

 

he was seemingly stating that the best moralisms are those that don't involve the actions of others ... i'm not aware of any that exist.

 

by the way, your dancing banana is a momo.

 

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And your disco homos avy is pretty f-ing ghey.

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And your disco homos avy is pretty f-ing ghey.

 

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if we could get your banana at my house party, we'd have something ...

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I think something else that has been lost on many Christians is that Christianity is the ultimate extra-state religion. It existed for more than 3 centuries completely without state sanction and facing state persecution. There is no need to think that Christianity has anything to do with formal state laws.

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I think something else that has been lost on many Christians is that Christianity is the ultimate extra-state religion.  It existed for more than 3 centuries completely without state sanction and facing state persecution.  There is no need to think that Christianity has anything to do with formal state laws.

 

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yes, and of course one of the fundamental ideas of christianity is that the kingdom of god and the kingdoms of men are totally separated and fundamentally at odds with each other.

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I think something else that has been lost on many Christians is that Christianity is the ultimate extra-state religion.  It existed for more than 3 centuries completely without state sanction and facing state persecution.  There is no need to think that Christianity has anything to do with formal state laws.

 

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do churches pay taxes???

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if we could get your banana at my house party, we'd have something ...

 

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Did tonoroator just proposition Squeegie? :D

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you all are still on this? Did I not tell you all that you all are wrong and I am right?

 

Geesh, you all better straighten up and fly right or I will cast all of you into the mines when I take over.

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do churches pay taxes???

 

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We could balance the budget for the next 100 years if they did. What does God need money for anyways?

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do churches pay taxes???

 

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Not on income that is related to their charitable/religious function.

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Did tonoroator just proposition Squeegie?  :D

 

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:D

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well, yeah. the one espoused by jesus, for one. love god with your whole heart. love your neighbor, and do not sin, in action or in your heart, against him. in your actions toward others, above all be humble, knowing your own sin, and resist the temptation to judge and to feel pride and self-righteousness. do not use biblical legalism to slam the doors of heaven in peoples' faces, but instead focus on the wieghtier matters of the law: justice, mercy and faith.

 

 

this is not a moralism that involves issues that affect others?

 

Jesus was overturning tables in the temple ...

 

telling others not to sin against Him affects them. you then have to investigate what all of the sins are that should be avoided.

 

i'm not getting your inward/outward distinction here ...

Edited by tonorator

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well, yeah.  the one espoused by jesus, for one.  love god with your whole heart.  love your neighbor, and do not sin, in action or in your heart, against him.  in your actions toward others, above all be humble, knowing your own sin, and resist the temptation to judge and to feel pride and self-righteousness.  do not use biblical legalism to slam the doors of heaven in peoples' faces, but instead focus on the wieghtier matters of the law: justice, mercy and faith.

 

this is not a moralism that involves issues that affect others?

 

Jesus was overturning tables in the temple ...

 

telling others not to sin against Him affects them. you then have to investigate what all of the sins are that should be avoided.

 

i'm not getting your inward/outward distinction here ...

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Um, there is no such thing as a "sin" against God. That is thinking of sin as a crime against God or something. Jesus wasnt about indexing behavior into sins or not sins or sins of worse or lesser degrees. He was about those things Asz so concisely pointed out above. It is literalists speaking in his name later who have attempted to control behavior by trying to determine what is or is not a sin.

 

Yer so far off on Jesus and his message this is isnt fun anymore, tonormanondog.

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since you have it so clear skins, was Jesus the son of God? did He die and rise again as payment for our sins? can you answer these questions for me?

Edited by tonorator

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