Big Country Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 You know what, Hachem is showing up a lot in these Hold Em reports, and he has that one other very dtrong finish early on in this series, much like Raymer last year. ANd he seems like a good guy, just like Raymer, so I hope to see him do well in this years Main Event (just not win it, as he isn't on my team) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muck Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 ...and, relatedly, I was noticing how I NEVER see Moneymaker in ANY event ever anywhere... I wonder how long it is until he loses all of the money he won a couple of years ago... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 ...and, relatedly, I was noticing how I NEVER see Moneymaker in ANY event ever anywhere... I wonder how long it is until he loses all of the money he won a couple of years ago... THat's long gone. Moneymakes has done nothing at the WSOP leately, in fact I dont recal lseeing him high up in many tournaments lately (couls check cardplayer for his results), but he did get 2nd I believe at the Bay 101 Shooting Stars Tourney in 2004 I believe it was... the year Phil Gordon won that event by knocking out Moneymaker and the third place guy on the same hand. I remember becuase the WPT had no contingency plan for that situation as the money had not been brought out to the table as is their custom when it gets to heads up play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muck Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 Big Country ... you think the money he made a couple of years ago has already been lost? You sure? That's a lot of $5000 entry fees gone awry... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 Big Country ... you think the money he made a couple of years ago has already been lost? You sure? That's a lot of $5000 entry fees gone awry... He won 2.5 mill. However, he had sold 50% of himself, so that is 1.25 mill. Take out taxes and you are looking at say 900K tops. I know he had other debt to get out of, so let's call it 800K. I sure hope, being an accountant, he hasnt blown it, but, (going on heresy from bro-in-law who lives in NAshville), according to bro-in-law, who apparently has a friend that also know Moneymaker, he has very little of the money left. WOrd is he truly is a compulsive gambler and has blown a lot of it. He is making money though from his book and from PokerStars, so I think he is far from broke, just that word is he has blown a lot of the WSOP windfall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muck Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 Why did he sell 50% of himself? And, I'd imagine that the IRS would frown on Moneymaker pawning half of the tax bill off on someone else ... so, there's a chance that CM had to pay the whole bill, and then gave half of the after-tax to the 'investor' (or such would be my thinking). And fwiw, a compusive gambler / accountant is a pretty odd combination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 Why did he sell 50% of himself? And, I'd imagine that the IRS would frown on Moneymaker pawning half of the tax bill off on someone else ... so, there's a chance that CM had to pay the whole bill, and then gave half of the after-tax to the 'investor' (or such would be my thinking). And fwiw, a compusive gambler / accountant is a pretty odd combination. Very odd combination. He sold half himself, I believe mostly to his dad and one other person (so, $5K here) in order to be able to pay for the trip to Vegas and for extra cash while he was there (not sure if the satelite he won included hotel and transportation like most packages these days). Selling parts of oneslef is not uncommon in poker, many pros do that to reduce volatility as tounrey poker can be so musch famine before a big score. Not sure how it all get reported with the IRS, etc, or if the casino pays it separately. Remember, Steve Danneman, the second place finisher last year, was in the ame boat in that he split the entry with his friend. His friend was right there with him at the pay window when he went to collect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muck Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 When you "sell yourself", I would imagine that paying half the entry fee doesn't necessarily get you half the winnings ... that some pros (or amateurs for that matter) may get different splits, depending on the deal that you negotiate. Like, if I was to offer Phil Ivey to pay all of his WSOP entry fees, I may only get 10-20% of his winnings ... whereas if I offered to pay all of your entry fees, I may expect to get 75% or so. ...or am I way off-base? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muck Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 The $2000 pot limit hold-em seems to be whittling down rather quickly as we're now down to 51 players. Of note: 2. Men Nguyen 8. David Chiu 9. Nam Le (Than's brother or cousin ... I forget) 10. Andrew Black 15. Joseph Hachem 23. Gavin Smith 26. Kirill Gerasimov 28. Michael Gracz (I think he has a bright future in card playing) 29. Clonie Gowen 37. Mark Vos 39. Mel Judah 42. Erik Seidel 46. Hoyt Corkins 47. John Juanda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muck Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 Original post was not accurate ... it's been edited. $1000 no limit hold-em ...139 left... Of note: 3. John Phan 29. Greg Mueller 66. Juan Carlos Mortensen ...this thing, however, is going slowly... We still have 74 players left. Of note: 2. John Phan 22. Juan Carlos Mortensen 24. Greg Mueller Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 When you "sell yourself", I would imagine that paying half the entry fee doesn't necessarily get you half the winnings ... that some pros (or amateurs for that matter) may get different splits, depending on the deal that you negotiate. Like, if I was to offer Phil Ivey to pay all of his WSOP entry fees, I may only get 10-20% of his winnings ... whereas if I offered to pay all of your entry fees, I may expect to get 75% or so. ...or am I way off-base? Not at all off base. I'm sure there are deals where some pros sell say 5% of themselves for 15% of another player or so on. Some just have backers and they ge a fixed percent of winnings. TJ Cloutier is one who has a backer. He gets his hotel, travel, etc. plus tourney entries paid for by a backer. I don't know what the deal is, but with someone as good as CLoutier, it may come out ot a 50/50 split of everything over costs or something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 ...this thing, however, is going slowly... We still have 74 players left. Of note: 2. John Phan 22. Juan Carlos Mortensen 24. Greg Mueller Who is Greg Mueller? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muck Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 $10,000 pot limit Omaha is coming to a close... Down to seven now ... the short stack entering the day (Rafi Amit, last years event winner) is now #3 in chips. 1. Lee Watkinson 2. Jani Vilmunen 3. Rafi Amit 4. Mark Dickstein 5. Hasan Habib 6. Mike Guttman 7. Nick Gibson ...busted... 8. Thomas Wahlroos 9. Mickey Appleman 10. Benjamin Roberts 11. Galen Kester 12. Rodeen Talebi 13. Barry Greenstein 14. Jim McManus 15. Patrik Antonius 16. Roland De Wolfe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muck Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 Not at all off base. I'm sure there are deals where some pros sell say 5% of themselves for 15% of another player or so on. Some just have backers and they ge a fixed percent of winnings. TJ Cloutier is one who has a backer. He gets his hotel, travel, etc. plus tourney entries paid for by a backer. I don't know what the deal is, but with someone as good as CLoutier, it may come out ot a 50/50 split of everything over costs or something like that. ...so, in Cloutier's case, its sort of like he "works for" someone else on a straight commission set up on everything he sells ... but the other guy pays for the secretary, office space, the phone system, etc. and if TJC 'sells' something (i.e., finishes in the money), then these costs are covered and there is some sort of split applied to everything else? That's not a bad gig if you have money to put to work and you're looking for an interesting investment... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muck Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 Who is Greg Mueller? This guy. Never heard of him really ... just thought I'd put his name down as there wasn't anyone else to pick from who's still left, and I'd seen his name in the "final fifty" of a few other tourney's that have gone on this WSOP. Heck, in looking into this a little, he finished in the money four times in WSOP-2005 events, and has already finished in the money once this year. Better than some (i.e., TJ Cloutier, for example). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildcat2334 Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 He won 2.5 mill. However, he had sold 50% of himself, so that is 1.25 mill. Take out taxes and you are looking at say 900K tops. I know he had other debt to get out of, so let's call it 800K. I sure hope, being an accountant, he hasnt blown it, but, (going on heresy from bro-in-law who lives in NAshville), according to bro-in-law, who apparently has a friend that also know Moneymaker, he has very little of the money left. WOrd is he truly is a compulsive gambler and has blown a lot of it. He is making money though from his book and from PokerStars, so I think he is far from broke, just that word is he has blown a lot of the WSOP windfall. Interesting, I was bored and just reading about CM earlier. Amazing he sold himself, didn't he win his seat thru a $80 satellite? I guess he never dreamed he would win some $$. It looks like all these top pros, CM included are earning some nice $$ thru their respective online casinos, appearances, etc. These online casinos are covering their WSOP & other tournament entry fees, is the way I understand it, and these guys are pulling in 7 figure incomes, and have a nice piece of the pie. Not saying your source isn't solid, but I am sure CM is doing just fine. Evidently all the guys at Full Tilt, etc., the Hellmuths, Ivey's Raymers, are rolling in dough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 Interesting, I was bored and just reading about CM earlier. Amazing he sold himself, didn't he win his seat thru a $80 satellite? I guess he never dreamed he would win some $$. It looks like all these top pros, CM included are earning some nice $$ thru their respective online casinos, appearances, etc. These online casinos are covering their WSOP & other tournament entry fees, is the way I understand it, and these guys are pulling in 7 figure incomes, and have a nice piece of the pie. Not saying your source isn't solid, but I am sure CM is doing just fine. Evidently all the guys at Full Tilt, etc., the Hellmuths, Ivey's Raymers, are rolling in dough. As noted in my quoted reply, he is aking money through endorsements, his book etc. He has not been doing particularly well in any major tournies for a while though, and as noted, through the rumor mill (not just bro in law, many other sources at various sites) it was stated that he did blow a large prtion of the WSOP windfall on other gaming, spent something like $25K at a strip club that night, etc. Yes, the deal with PokerStars that many of them make is that Stars gives them some set amount of dollars for tourney entries and travel etc. and they wear the Stars gear and promote them via appearances and commercials. Not sure how much they get, but I saw one report that Raymer got something like $150K just for tourney entries... that doesnt include any other "salary" or promotional fees they may get or any poker winnings, of which Stars does not get a cut that I am aware of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclones Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 You know what, Hachem is showing up a lot in these Hold Em reports, and he has that one other very dtrong finish early on in this series, much like Raymer last year. ANd he seems like a good guy, just like Raymer, so I hope to see him do well in this years Main Event (just not win it, as he isn't on my team) Let's not forget either that Raymer was victimized by one of the all time bad plays I can rememberm in such a late stage of a major tournament. On a hand that would have bagged him the chip lead had he won, Aaron Kanter made unequivocally the worst all time call on the flop, then called an all in bet instantly after the turn on a hand in which he had 8 outs. Can you imagine if that had been Hellmuth instead of Raymer? Kanter would still be getting yelled at (and rightfully so.) I would like to see Hachem or Raymer make a run in the ME this year. They both seem like good guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easy n Dirty Posted July 12, 2006 Author Share Posted July 12, 2006 While I generally agree that Raymer seems like a good guy, he kind of irks me with his constant habit of staring other players down, behind those rainbow glasses no less. Is there some accepted way of measuring who is in first place overall in the WSOP so far, or at least when all is said and done? Cash winnings doesn't necessarily seem fair as the winner then would simply be the main event winner, even if he failed to cash anywhere else. I guess total number of cashes might be reasonable, but might reward a guy who finished 50th six different times versus a guy who made two final tables, which to me is the more impressive accomplishment. If we use Big Country's "perfect roster" system, which seems as reasonable as any, then the big name players who are on top right now would be Hellmuth and David Williams. From watching High Stakes Poker on GSN, Hellmuth has actually become something of a sympathetic figure in my eyes - I'll always support anyone if they get into a confrontation with Matusow, and it seems like alot of the players on HSP went out of there way to goad Hellmuth (especially Antonio). I'm glad to see him doing well. That Paul Magriel really is a handosme fella', isn't he? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclones Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 While I generally agree that Raymer seems like a good guy, he kind of irks me with his constant habit of staring other players down, behind those rainbow glasses no less. Is there some accepted way of measuring who is in first place overall in the WSOP so far, or at least when all is said and done? Cash winnings doesn't necessarily seem fair as the winner then would simply be the main event winner, even if he failed to cash anywhere else. I guess total number of cashes might be reasonable, but might reward a guy who finished 50th six different times versus a guy who made two final tables, which to me is the more impressive accomplishment. If we use Big Country's "perfect roster" system, which seems as reasonable as any, then the big name players who are on top right now would be Hellmuth and David Williams. From watching High Stakes Poker on GSN, Hellmuth has actually become something of a sympathetic figure in my eyes - I'll always support anyone if they get into a confrontation with Matusow, and it seems like alot of the players on HSP went out of there way to goad Hellmuth (especially Antonio). I'm glad to see him doing well. That Paul Magriel really is a handosme fella', isn't he? Hellmuth is not a cash game guy, but he is the best tournament Hold Em player there is, bar none. All 9 of his WSOP bracelets are in Hold Em, whereas, Phil Ivey has 0 Hold Em bracelets. He is volatile to be sure, but it is great entertainment and it has turned him into a very recognizable face (probably the most in all of poker.) He doesn't need anyone's sympathy though..Esfandiari likely has a couple hundred million to go catch Phil (counting endorsement deals, book sales, Ultimate Bet, etc.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclones Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 While I generally agree that Raymer seems like a good guy, he kind of irks me with his constant habit of staring other players down, behind those rainbow glasses no less. Is there some accepted way of measuring who is in first place overall in the WSOP so far, or at least when all is said and done? Cash winnings doesn't necessarily seem fair as the winner then would simply be the main event winner, even if he failed to cash anywhere else. I guess total number of cashes might be reasonable, but might reward a guy who finished 50th six different times versus a guy who made two final tables, which to me is the more impressive accomplishment. If we use Big Country's "perfect roster" system, which seems as reasonable as any, then the big name players who are on top right now would be Hellmuth and David Williams. From watching High Stakes Poker on GSN, Hellmuth has actually become something of a sympathetic figure in my eyes - I'll always support anyone if they get into a confrontation with Matusow, and it seems like alot of the players on HSP went out of there way to goad Hellmuth (especially Antonio). I'm glad to see him doing well. That Paul Magriel really is a handosme fella', isn't he? In reference to "Best Pro," Mortensen has now finished 9th, 9th, and 10th in three seperate events. I would guess that he is likely leading the WSOP Player of the year standings so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 EnD - The players goad Phil in the cash games because he is not a cash game specialist, whatever he tries to make people believe, and they know that a few jabs like that may mean many thousands more dollars in their pockets. But, hands down, Phil Hellnuth is the best No Limit Hold Em tournament player in the game today. Card Player has a ranking system that is points based, but it, much like the system we use in the Pool, is biased towards winning an event rather than cashes. I'm not sure what the WSOP uses for it's official points count, may be the same system. (CP blocked at work, so I can't go check to see if they detail how they calculate their points). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Easy n Dirty Posted July 12, 2006 Author Share Posted July 12, 2006 EnD - The players goad Phil in the cash games because he is not a cash game specialist, whatever he tries to make people believe, and they know that a few jabs like that may mean many thousands more dollars in their pockets. I understand that, but it still makes him a somewhat sympathetic figure in my eyes - not to mention that, for the most part, he handled much of the abuse on High Stakes Poker with a reasonable amount of class, I thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclones Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 While I generally agree that Raymer seems like a good guy, he kind of irks me with his constant habit of staring other players down, behind those rainbow glasses no less. Is there some accepted way of measuring who is in first place overall in the WSOP so far, or at least when all is said and done? Cash winnings doesn't necessarily seem fair as the winner then would simply be the main event winner, even if he failed to cash anywhere else. I guess total number of cashes might be reasonable, but might reward a guy who finished 50th six different times versus a guy who made two final tables, which to me is the more impressive accomplishment. If we use Big Country's "perfect roster" system, which seems as reasonable as any, then the big name players who are on top right now would be Hellmuth and David Williams. From watching High Stakes Poker on GSN, Hellmuth has actually become something of a sympathetic figure in my eyes - I'll always support anyone if they get into a confrontation with Matusow, and it seems like alot of the players on HSP went out of there way to goad Hellmuth (especially Antonio). I'm glad to see him doing well. That Paul Magriel really is a handosme fella', isn't he? X22 (a backgammon reference) is the ugliest guy on the circuit. Quack Quack! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 I understand that, but it still makes him a somewhat sympathetic figure in my eyes - not to mention that, for the most part, he handled much of the abuse on High Stakes Poker with a reasonable amount of class, I thought. Well, from interviews I have heard from other players, Phil Hellmuth is the nicest guy away from the table and really is very respected by the other players. The kind of guy that would not hesitate to help a friend out in need or anything like that. They just give him a hard time as he is a big time name dropper an is really working hard to market the Poker Brat image (can't blame him, guy gets paid $50K for an appearance). So, it really is good natured ribbing and Phil takes it well. IMO< it's the kind of situation where the poker players have all developed friendships and can take shots at one another, but if an outsider were to take a shot, they would all be there to defend him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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