Retrograde assault Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 Aren't politics interesting? only if you're a politician. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGrunt Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 only if you're a politician. touché Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 It's a tragedy that three young men from Boise died, it hits a little bit closer to home because of the multitude of time I spent there. I see where your anger is coming from, but the times are different. During the Vietnam war the U.S. held a draft and forced people to join the military. In today's military every single soldier, Marine, etc. joined because they wanted to do something for their country. They chose to be in the military and risked the chance to be in a war. Kids entering the armed services deserve our brightest military leaders combined with our best military intelligence to overide chickenhawks with a political agenda. We hoped for a shoot from the hip geo-political strategy hitting a bullseye and missed the whole freaking dartboard. I realize guys in the chit can't worry about this. But a proponderence of evidence, my 6+ year observation, and a Perchoutwater ancedotal experience with retired military guys only confirms what I thought before we kicked this off. When we hire the next career politician to be our president, lets make sure he has competent military people around him that he listens to. If they don't, it would be best for us to take them to task instead of re-electing them. 2007 is a start and it will only get better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailer Parker Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 And thank you, witless flag waving cretin. So in your opinion war should be something other than a last resort? Dont get your panties all bunched up sister! I am against this dam war too. I was just pointing out that sometimes there are solutions that are actually WORSE than going to war... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGrunt Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 It's a tragedy that three young men from Boise died, it hits a little bit closer to home because of the multitude of time I spent there. Kids entering the armed services deserve our brightest military leaders combined with our best military intelligence to overide chickenhawks with a political agenda. We hoped for a shoot from the hip geo-political strategy hitting a bullseye and missed the whole freaking dartboard. When we hire the next career politician to be our president, lets make sure he has competent military people around him that he listens to. If they don't, it would be best for us to take them to task instead of re-electing them. 2007 is a start and it will only get better. I completely agree with everything you've mentioned here. 100%. There are other qualities I pray that our next President has as well, but this will be one of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailer Parker Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 i just don't feel like we should invade a country right away. Like Ursa said, war should be a last resort I'm not that good with politics and diplomacy so I'm not sure how we should go about dealing with terrorists, but i think the war in Iraq may have been avoided (or more likely, delayed) if we had just taken the time to talk with them before sending our forces in Are you kidding? We did nothing but negoiate with Saddam over the course of a dozen years or so. He disregarded all of our sanctions, warnings, and requests. He violated 16 UN resolutions in a row. 16 in a rown! He kicked out the UN inspectors from his country. While the inspectors were there he stymied their efforts and obstructed them whenever he could. He paid the families of suicide bombers to kill people in Israel. He violated the oil for food program. He was bribing countries like France to ensure he could do as he pleased without worrying about us invading. And he completely disregarded the peace treaty that he signed that left him in power after our 1st war with him in 1991. So, to say we "rushed" in without talking to Saddam is absurd in the extreme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGrunt Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 Are you kidding? We did nothing but negoiate with Saddam over the course of a dozen years or so. He disregarded all of our sanctions, warnings, and requests. He violated 16 UN resolutions in a row. 16 in a rown! He kicked out the UN inspectors from his country. While the inspectors were there he stymied their efforts and obstructed them whenever he could. He paid the families of suicide bombers to kill people in Israel. He violated the oil for food program. He was bribing countries like France to ensure he could do as he pleased without worrying about us invading. And he completely disregarded the peace treaty that he signed that left him in power after our 1st war with him in 1991. So, to say we "rushed" in without talking to Saddam is absurd in the extreme. I enjoy logic too. This is good info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailer Parker Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 I enjoy logic too. This is good info. Logic is typically not involved when discussing a topic such as war... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 Dont get your panties all bunched up sister! I am against this dam war too. Words of wisdom Espana. The Yankees have saved our country many times. Time for us northern folks to carry the dead weight , correct the mistakes, and lead our great country onto vicotry again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailer Parker Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 The Yankees have saved our country many times. Time for us northern folks to carry the dead weight , correct the mistakes, and lead our great country onto vicotry again. Too bad the Yankees dont have strong military people in charge like US Grant and William Tecumsah Sherman(may their evil souls rot in eternal he11). Having abject military haters and unadultered pacifists like Hillary and Bill leading their charge aint exactly Teddy Roosevelt leading his men up San Juan Hill for Christ sakes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 Are you kidding? We did nothing but negoiate with Saddam over the course of a dozen years or so. He disregarded all of our sanctions, warnings, and requests. He violated 16 UN resolutions in a row. 16 in a rown! He kicked out the UN inspectors from his country. While the inspectors were there he stymied their efforts and obstructed them whenever he could. He paid the families of suicide bombers to kill people in Israel. He violated the oil for food program. He was bribing countries like France to ensure he could do as he pleased without worrying about us invading. And he completely disregarded the peace treaty that he signed that left him in power after our 1st war with him in 1991. So, to say we "rushed" in without talking to Saddam is absurd in the extreme. None of this justifies war. It justifies what was already happening with Saddam reduced to powerlessness, every hostile act met with retaliation. We could keep that up for ever, suffering zero casualties and spending no more than our usual military budget. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furd Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 Are you kidding? We did nothing but negoiate with Saddam over the course of a dozen years or so. He disregarded all of our sanctions, warnings, and requests. He violated 16 UN resolutions in a row. 16 in a rown! He kicked out the UN inspectors from his country. While the inspectors were there he stymied their efforts and obstructed them whenever he could. He paid the families of suicide bombers to kill people in Israel. He violated the oil for food program. He was bribing countries like France to ensure he could do as he pleased without worrying about us invading. And he completely disregarded the peace treaty that he signed that left him in power after our 1st war with him in 1991. So, to say we "rushed" in without talking to Saddam is absurd in the extreme. Gee. Where have I read this before? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocknrobn26 Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 I see where your anger is coming from, but the times are different. During the Vietnam war the U.S. held a draft and forced people to join the military. In today's military every single soldier, Marine, etc. joined because they wanted to do something for their country. They chose to be in the military and risked the chance to be in a war. Hating our president because he made a decision to go to war (a decision that many people sided with when it first started, including many democrats) doesn't take away from the fact that it's the enemy that we should be looking down upon and putting most of our focus towards. I say DAMN the enemy that innocently kills our service members. For me, here is a quick positive that I got from becoming a young war vet in our country: I put myself on the line to do something that I felt would better our country, and more importantly our world. A negative... I'm still in therapy. I appreciate your thoughts and applaud you're serving! FWIW....I have one 2nd cuz come back severely injured. Shrapnel from a roadside bomb, entering his wrist and exiting his elbow. He's kinda messed up now (some physical, mostly alcohol and attitude), hopefully will get better, but his one dream of being a cop is now unattainable. I tried to talk to him at a wedding awhile back, but he was already too drunk to even recognize me. Another 2nd cuz is there as I type. His folks are getting minimal feedback from him, but so far so good. I hope he comes home whole. A friend of my wife's (Now Bird Col. reserves and a cop) was sent to take over Abu Ghraib. He was there for 13 months IIRC. He came back in one piece and seems unchanged. He's back, one peace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theprofessor Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 i just don't feel like we should invade a country right away. Like Ursa said, war should be a last resort I wonder if one of your family members died on 9/11 if you'd feel the same way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furd Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 I wonder if one of your family members died on 9/11 if you'd feel the same way I wonder what percentage of the family members of the 9/11 victims supported/support the invasion and occupation of Iraq? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spain Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 None of this justifies war. Which bodes the question: What does justify war? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whomper Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 Which bodes the question: What does justify war? When I run out of the house briefly..Just a quick run to the store and my wife locks the door..Then I come back with hands full of groceries to a locked door after being gone under 20 minutes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbmcdonald Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 When we hire the next career politician to be our president, lets make sure he has competent military people around him that he listens to. If they don't, it would be best for us to take them to task instead of re-electing them. That is why I like the premise of Starship Trooper so much; it is an excellent political commentary. The only way to be a citizen (and have the right to vote) is to have served in the military. The other interesting thing was that serving in the military meant completely giving up any sense of self. Everything was done for the good of the whole. If someone died in training, nobody sued and there were no political inquiries. If someone died in training, then the assumption was that a lesson was learned that will save multiple lives in combat. If you do not want to serve in the military, that is fine. You can still have all of the rights and privileges accorded citizens, you just can’t vote. Many very wealthy and prominent people were non-citizens. The whole thing was started by returning veterans of the last war started by politicians. They finally said, you know we are tired of fighting wars started by people who have not served, and do not let their children serve. We are happy to serve, and put ourselves in harms-way, we just want the people making the decisions to also have been in harms-way, and their children to be in harms-way. Is that too much to ask? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 I wonder if one of your family members died on 9/11 if you'd feel the same way I think I'd have the wit to differentiate between an invasion of Afghanistan (genuine partners in 9/11) and Iraq (nothing to do with it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 Which bodes the question: What does justify war? Attack. Certain threat of attack. Treaty obligations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabuffbills Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 I wonder if one of your family members died on 9/11 if you'd feel the same way it just so happens that one of my family members did die in 9/11, and i do feel like we have to take down the terrorist network, but the invasion of Iraq did not have to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
untateve Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 IBut in my opinion, if we massed troops in Afghanistan instead of Iraq we'd still be fighting the same terrorists. It's just a matter of which country we decided to do it in. And after 9/11 we absolutely HAD to do something. We didn't want to sit on our ass hoping they didn't do it again... or else... we'll wave our finger again. We had to take action. However, when we attacked Afghanistan, we had the support of the world. Everyone understood that we were going after those responsible for 9/11. If we had amassed troops there, we might have had many other countries assist us. I will admit not knowing Afghanistan but it does not seem that it is likely that working toward installing a government there would deteriorate into a civil war (If I'm wrong about this, let me know). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czarina Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 Something that never comes up in these discussions is not the number of KIA soldiers, but the HUGE numbers of soldiers who are permanently disabled from their injuries while serving in the war. We have literally thousands of men and women coming home missing limbs, etc., at a time when VA services have been cut back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
untateve Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 We have literally thousands of men and women coming home missing limbs, etc., at a time when VA services have been cut back. We have to cut back on VA services to pay for the war, silly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 Something that never comes up in these discussions is not the number of KIA soldiers, but the HUGE numbers of soldiers who are permanently disabled from their injuries while serving in the war. We have literally thousands of men and women coming home missing limbs, etc., at a time when VA services have been cut back. And that financial cost will run for the next half-century at least. The human cost is obvious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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