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'No coddling of Vick'


kingfish247
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My best bet is to emphasize that this offense will be built around Vick and if the offense doesn't flourish it'll be deemed his fault. And do I think it will flourish will the new coaching staff and the anticipation for this offseason. Hell yeah. :D

 

 

:D

 

Perfect. Your statement shows just how delusional you are about Vick's ability to perform as a QB.

 

So correct me if I am wrong ... Didn't Mora start out to build an offense specifically suited to utilize Vicks specifc abilities? So how'd that work out for the Falcons and for Mora?

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:D

 

Perfect. Your statement shows just how delusional you are about Vick's ability to perform as a QB.

 

So correct me if I am wrong ... Didn't Mora start out to build an offense specifically suited to utilize Vicks specifc abilities? So how'd that work out for the Falcons and for Mora?

 

Are you saying that was Vick's fault? The offensive line and the wide receivers had nothing to do with it. Oh my mistake you put in the :D .

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Are you saying that was Vick's fault? The offensive line and the wide receivers had nothing to do with it. Oh my mistake you put in the :D .

 

 

Did Mora build an offense specifically around Vick or not?

 

Did Mora's offense designed specifically for Vick allow him to excel as QB?

 

How will yet another offense designed specifically for Vick be any different than all the other offenses designed specifically for him that he could not run? And BTW that is NOT how I interpret the new OC's statements ... sounds to me like he is saying Vick better grow up and learn how to throw the ball and run a real NFL offense as he will no longer be coddled.

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Did Mora build an offense specifically around Vick or not?

 

Did Mora's offense designed specifically for Vick allow him to excel as QB?

 

How will yet another offense designed specifically for Vick be any different than all the other offenses designed specifically for him that he could not run? And BTW that is NOT how I interpret the new OC's statements ... sounds to me like he is saying Vick better grow up and learn how to throw the ball and run a real NFL offense as he will no longer be coddled.

 

I'd answer yes to both questions. The philosophy right now is that Vick was restricted in Knapp's offense and that with the audibles he will be given the oppurtunity to pretty much call the plays. Once again reinforcing my point of how I think the comments were to be interpreted. Your turn.

 

Did Mora equip Vick with a supporting cast(receivers/O-line) that helped him out this season?

 

And just wondering...

 

Do you think Schaub would win more games?

Edited by broncosn05
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I'd answer yes to both questions. The philosophy right now is that Vick was restricted in Knapp's offense and that with the audibles he will be given the oppurtunity to pretty much call the plays. Once again reinforcing my point of how I think the comments were to be interpreted. Your turn.

 

Did Mora equip Vick with a supporting cast(receivers/O-line) that helped him out this season?

 

And just wondering...

 

Do you think Schaub would win more games?

 

 

Yeah ... right Vick was a successful QB ... gotcha. Only in the eyes of the Vick apologists.

 

You could have given Vick two HoF WRs and it would have changed nothing.

 

I never said Schaub was the answer ... but it is clear Vick is NOT the answer.

 

I'm happy as long as Vick is the QB of Atlanta because as long as he is Atlanta will flounder in mediocrity. And amazingly enough he will still be loved by Vick apologists everywhere like you who will continue to blame all things not Vick for his inability to operate as a QB.

 

So ... go ahead and tell us now ... what are all the excuses you will use for Vick's failure next year. Oh wait ... I know ... he's got a new HC, new OC, the o-line will be bad and the defense will struggle, weather will be horrible, WRs will drop passes (which were all perfectly thrown by Vick), opposing teams will be tough, children will be starving to death in 3rd world countries, the locker room will be too cold or too hot, somebody will rip Vick's favorite shirt and his mother's neighbor's dog will die. Did I leave anything out?

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The philosophy right now is that Vick was restricted in Knapp's offense and that with the audibles he will be given the oppurtunity to pretty much call the plays.

 

 

As long as he stays away from that most radical of plays for a QB - a forward pass - he should do just fine.

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Yeah ... right Vick was a successful QB ... gotcha. Only in the eyes of the Vick apologists.

 

You could have given Vick two HoF WRs and it would have changed nothing.

 

I never said Schaub was the answer ... but it is clear Vick is NOT the answer.

 

I'm happy as long as Vick is the QB of Atlanta because as long as he is Atlanta will flounder in mediocrity. And amazingly enough he will still be loved by Vick apologists everywhere like you who will continue to blame all things not Vick for his inability to operate as a QB.

 

So ... go ahead and tell us now ... what are all the excuses you will use for Vick's failure next year. Oh wait ... I know ... he's got a new HC, new OC, the o-line will be bad and the defense will struggle, weather will be horrible, WRs will drop passes (which were all perfectly thrown by Vick), opposing teams will be tough, children will be starving to death in 3rd world countries, the locker room will be too cold or too hot, somebody will rip Vick's favorite shirt and his mother's neighbor's dog will die. Did I leave anything out?

 

So Grits what is the answer? Just to make it clear I disagree.

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Did I say that. :D

 

I'm not seeing anyone putting any of the blame on Donatel or the defense when they were getting smoked on a regular basis. Grits are we going to start another one? Alright how about the O-Line? Do they impact the QB's ability to perform? :D

 

 

:bash:

 

I just love how the Vick lovers' biggest argument is how many games he has won, but any losses are always pointed somewhere else besides Vick. How is that possible?

 

By the numbers, Vick is just a crappy QB. There have been 76 QBs who have been rostered & active in a minimum of 20 games since 2006. While there are some high-profile QBs on that list, there are also a plethora of guys like Alex Van Pelt, Ray Lucas, Doug Peterson, Quincy Carter, et al. Here are Vick's rankings among those 76 QBs in per game passing stats:

 

Passing yards per game

 

#43 155.5 ypg

 

Passing TDs per game

 

#38 0.96 TDpg

 

Interceptions per game

 

#23 0.90 INTpg

 

Completion Percentage

 

#73 58.3% passes completed

 

Passing yards per attempt

 

#47 6.65 ypa

 

Wait, it gets better. When you look at QBs who were rostered & active in at least 48 games since 2000 (3 full seasons), there are 33 QBs on the list. Here are Vick's per-game rankings when compared to that 33 QB field:

 

Passing yards per game

 

#28

 

Passing TDs per game

 

#26

 

Interceptions per game

 

#6

 

Completion Percentage

 

#32

 

Passing yards per attempt

 

#25

 

 

That's hardly the stuff that QB legends are made of. In fact, it would be difficult to believe that if Schaub were the full time QB that he could possibly do worse.

 

I know, I know - the thing that seperates Vick is the way he runs with the football. Well, that's NOT his primary job on the field. His position's #1 job description is to distribute the football to other players. Teams have RBs to run the football.

 

So, when you ask whether ATL would have done better with Schaub at QB, my response would be that there is a strong possibility that they may have. Put Schaub at QB and Vick at RB/Slash and ATL very well may have won more games, especially playoff games.

Edited by Bronco Billy
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:D

 

I just love how the Vick lovers' biggest argument is how many games he has won, but any losses are always pointed somewhere else besides Vick. How is that possible?

 

By the numbers, Vick is just a crappy QB. There have been 76 QBs who have been rostered & active in a minimum of 20 games since 2006. While there are some high-profile QBs on that list, there are also a plethora of guys like Alex Van Pelt, Ray Lucas, Doug Peterson, Quincy Carter, et al. Here are Vick's rankings among those 76 QBs in per game passing stats:

 

Passing yards per game

 

#43 155.5 ypg

 

Passing TDs per game

 

#38 0.96 TDpg

 

Interceptions per game

 

#23 0.90 INTpg

 

Completion Percentage

 

#73 58.3% passes completed

 

Passing yards per attempt

 

#47 6.65 ypa

 

Wait, it gets better. When you look at QBs who were rostered & active in at least 48 games since 2000 (3 full seasons), there are 33 QBs on the list. Here are Vick's per-game rankings when compared to that 33 QB field:

 

Passing yards per game

 

#28

 

Passing TDs per game

 

#26

 

Interceptions per game

 

#6

 

Completion Percentage

 

#32

 

Passing yards per attempt

 

#25

That's hardly the stuff that QB legends are made of. In fact, it would be difficult to believe that if Schaub were the full time QB that he could possibly do worse.

 

I know, I know - the thing that seperates Vick is the way he runs with the football. Well, that's NOT his primary job on the field. His position's #1 job description is to distribute the football to other players. Teams have RBs to run the football.

 

So, when you ask whether ATL would have done better with Schaub at QB, my response would be that there is a strong possibility that they may have. Put Schaub at QB and Vick at RB/Slash and ATL very well may have won more games, especially playoff games.

 

 

You aren't being fair ... you have to actually watch him play ... when you can actually see him on the field and in action you will see that the numbers lie. :D

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Vick presents such a different set of skills to the position that there will always be the sense that he could be a great one - if he was used in a manner that made use of all his skills and downplayed or eliminated his weaknesses. But used conventionally as he has the past years, he never rises to the level everyone expects because he is not that sort of QB. I am not completely sold that he is a QB per se, but he has undeniable skills that I suspect are best suited for getting him the ball as much as possible.

 

If the offense caters to him, it could be dangerous. If they try to make him what he is not, it will flop yet again. Be interesting...

 

Petrino and Jackson's attitude towards Vick and the team, I believe, goes to the heart of what has been wrong with ATL. Yes, believe it or not there are other problem areas on the offense and the team. While I run the risk of being a Vick apologist for sharing that view, it's a fact.

 

However misguided it may be in others' opinion, I tend to agree with what DMD says above.

 

The offense was never catered to Vick. In fact, I'd say it has been the opposite with Knapp and his 'WCO'. Vick will not lead the league or place in the top 1/4-1/3 in most if not all passing categories. It's just not his game. Never was, never will be.

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Vick will not lead the league or place in the top 1/4-1/3 in most if not all passing categories. It's just not his game. Never was, never will be.

 

 

I agree wholeheartedly. But if the greatest weakness in his play is passing the ball, and he is more effective with additional carries, then his game is more suited to be a RB, or maybe some kind of hybrid slot back. Running some kind of slotted offense would take great advantage of Vick's skills.

 

We ran a split backfield with a slot back when I coached and it was extremely effective, with the power lead/scissors action in the backfield and the slot moving either vertically in pass patterns or laterally behind the RB in running plays or option passes, it was so fast and moving in so many different directions that it was difficult for Ds to get an initial read on the ball before the ball got to the LoS. I can't help but think that allowing Vick to touch the ball 12-15 times a game this way would really make an O dangerous as well as take the best advantage of his skill set.

 

But to put Vick under center and then expect any kind of a credible passing game? The numbers speak for themselves, and they also speak to Vick being selfish enough to put his own concept of himself well above the welfare of the team that he insists on playing in a tradional QB role. An example in the NFL that I think immediately of is Kordell Stewart. He was extremely dangerous in his Slash role, but he sucked as a QB under center. If Stewart could make the Slash role dangerous, think of what Vick could do, if he could only set his own fragile ego aside...

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Honestly don't care, but truth here is somewhere in the middle :

 

- Vick never will be a great passer from stats perspective - just not accurate enough nor seems to have great decision makign skills

 

- Vick has tremendous arm strength (why does that matter-cause it's one of many pieces to a QB - if somehow EVERYTHING else was equal but this between two QB's, you'll take the guy with teh stronger arm)

 

- When debating Vicks QB abilities, you have to factor in running with it out of the QB spot - again, if everythign else is equal, and even if it's a bit weighted one way, you'll take a guy who can run a 4.5 and has "moves" over a statue

 

- At the end of the day, the most important stat for a QB isn't any of the ones above - it's wins. Yes, all kind of other factors go into wins, most importantly being the other 21 guys on the field, but teh QB is the key position - if he wins, he's good.

 

So sayign all that - me personal opinion is Vick is probably around the 12th best QB in the league (no, I don't know the 11 ahead of him by name - this is a general thought). More than anything, the kid needs to grow up - cause if you can't lead, you can't be a good QB. Then, yes, his skills are a bit diff and call for a slightly modified offense, but he also needs to simply throw the ball better than he has. He's had games where he's shown the ability, but never seasons. I wouldn't write him off yet, but the coaches are dead on - it's put up or shut up time in his career. No excuses, no "if i had better WR" - a lot of guys have had mediocre to poor WR yet put up numbers AND wins (McNabb obviously comes to mind recently as does Brady to an extent).

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I agree wholeheartedly. But if the greatest weakness in his play is passing the ball, and he is more effective with additional carries, then his game is more suited to be a RB, or maybe some kind of hybrid slot back. Running some kind of slotted offense would take great advantage of Vick's skills.

 

I think he can be a decent passer (which imo is all he really needs to be given his other skills) however Vick's size and skill set never fit to the schemes of Knapp and Gibbs. QBs physically similar to Vick absolutely can't get by with an undersized and/or subpar (at least in pass protection) offensive line.

 

A very good example was Jeff Garcia this year. He's up there in age. 36? He was largely seen as washed up coming off his third team in 3 years. It was really no surprise he did what he did this year considering he was in an offense that was familiar to him AND Philly's beastly front 5. The latter can NOT be overlooked when considering Garcia's stature, generously listed at 6-1/200. He can create only so much by himself otherwise the front 5 must create consistent passing lanes AND a pocket. It's no surprise his best years came with the Niners in the waning years of one of the best, smartly built offenses in the history of the game.

 

Knapp's 'WCO' was never familiar to Vick. Vick ran a very 'high school' offense at VTech... run, run, pass or play action with an occasional audible etc. Vick's stature doesn't bode well when trying to run Knapp's offense with linemen suited for Gibbs' run game. Throw in the fact that Vick was never a pure passer and it's no wonder he has stunk it up via the pass game or isn't living up to expectations.

 

This all sounds like classic "Vick apologist" fodder but just the fact that he has a fat contract or was the #1 overall doesn't automatically make him into something he's not. Blank and Knapp have been trying to fit a square peg into a round hole for the last 3-4 years. I'm eager to see what Petrino and Jackson will come up with.

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:D

 

I just love how the Vick lovers' biggest argument is how many games he has won, but any losses are always pointed somewhere else besides Vick.

 

Speaking of Vick's lovers, what ever happened to Water Tool? I have a bad feeling about him... especially after Peyton hoisted the Lombardi Trophy a couple of weeks ago. :D

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Honestly don't care, but truth here is somewhere in the middle :

 

- Vick never will be a great passer from stats perspective - just not accurate enough nor seems to have great decision makign skills ....

didn't want to include the whole post in the reply but I couldn't agree more with the whole assessment.

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Knapp's 'WCO' was never familiar to Vick. Vick ran a very 'high school' offense at VTech... run, run, pass or play action with an occasional audible etc. Vick's stature doesn't bode well when trying to run Knapp's offense with linemen suited for Gibbs' run game. Throw in the fact that Vick was never a pure passer and it's no wonder he has stunk it up via the pass game or isn't living up to expectations.

 

Vick is an option QB. He's perfect for a college team, but not the NFL.

 

And this goes to show, yet again, that you HAVE to be able to read defenses and throw the ball accurately to be an NFL QB. All of the "athleticism" in the world won't change that.

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Vick is an option QB. He's perfect for a college team, but not the NFL.

 

 

 

 

Here's a point I somewhat disagree with - most guys that are "option" qb's can't throw well at all. Vick can flat out throw the ball a mile with velocity, and actually at times I've seen him make some decent touch passes. Just can't do it consistently it seems nor all that accurately (again, on a consistent basis). If he never showed any flashes of being able to actually pass the ball at a reasonable enough level, he'd not be playing QB anymore.

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Here's a point I somewhat disagree with - most guys that are "option" qb's can't throw well at all.

 

Well, I guess that would make Vick an almost perfect option QB - he can't throw the ball well enough to be a pocket passer, but has enough arm strength to stretch defenses and the speed the be a running threat.

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full article on Hue Jackson/Petrino/Vick :D

 

not much new info from the small article posted earlier in the week...

 

"There will be no coddling of Michael Vick," Jackson said. "We're not going to coddle Michael Vick. This is not a demerit system where we say, 'OK, we're not going to deal with this guy this way and this guy that way.' We're going to coach them all hard, and he knows that. We have an expectation of him, and I think he'll be the first to tell you that I'm not afraid to say anything to him and I'm not afraid to say anything to anyone on this offense.

 

"There is an expectation and that's what we're going to get. I don't care what the position is. That's the way we see it and that's the way we're going to deal with it. What comes with him is the celebrity and money and all that. I'm being honest with you. That doesn't mean much to me or anyone else."

 

Jackson said Vick was actually excited about the approach.

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I don't think that giving a "run first, pass later" guy like Vick the option to audible is going to help much....

 

True, but allowing him to change only the direction of the run plays as Knapp did is hardly allowing the offense any freedom to adjust.

 

If he walks up to the line with a run play to the right and the D is showing 8 men committed to the run then changing it to the left will do very little.

 

He was never allowed to audible a pass from a run or vice versa. I know it's just one example but towards the end of the season Vick began calling audibles without permission. In the Washington game, Vick audibled the TD pass to Jenkins. After that game came his stupid quote "sometimes you have to overcome coaching."

 

Knapp never even allowed them to run no-huddle very often unless it was a 2 minute drill or trailing late. Vick has always looked more comfortable in a no-huddle. Cincy ran a nice no-huddle so hopefully Jackson brings some of that to ATL. As an aside, it's really no coincidence that some of the best conventional QBs in the league use the no-huddle on a regular basis.

Edited by kingfish247
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