unions suck

[AtomicCEO]

As with any other aspect of a free market economy, if unions are so terrible, people won't hire union workers. There is no use debating it as if you could wish them away.

[Skippy]

You mean that the bargaining power that is an entire work group sticking together for decent wages, bennies, work conditions, equal treatment, making sure you have a shot at the promotion and not just Billy Bob's nephew, etc. is something that is not needed in today's very kind and gentle work environment where the company is always doing right by those that put the back into the profits?

 

These discussions will never end with pro and anti union people seeing eye to eye but I assure you that if you walked a mile in my shoes you would sing a different tune. While I am sure that some of what you suggest takes place that absolutely does not exist in any of the major labor and trade unions around here. The unions promote continuing education to make sure that everyone is on the top of their game. My outfit gets called in often to fix the booboos of the other company. Not that we don’t have booboos but I assure you that you will be hard pressed to get a union guy to botch up a job in order to save a company some dollars. That is one of the biggest reasons that a lot of companies don’t go to the hall to hire. Around Pittsburgh all the big companies that do big bid work all have union labor working for them. Most of the time the bid calls for them to pay prevailing wage anyway so you tell me why they don’t just pay that prevailing wage to the non-union guy but instead head to the hall and hire? Very often when that guy gets hired from the hall he never leaves the company that hired him. It is win win. Company found that top notch guy for life and top notch guy found a decent company that supports the union for life.

 

I really am going try to stay out of these threads. You have got to see that man get cracked in the head with a pipe wrench to see that the union guy had a hard hat on and watched him split his skull open. Then you have to hear the skull broken open guy tell you that he asked his very nice non union company for a hard hat since he noticed all the cool union guys wearing them and thought maybe that is a useful thing only to be told that if you want one, go buy one. Then he said maybe I will save up some of my $14.00 an hour job that pays for my wife and two kids and all our life habits as well as house and transportation and get me one of the those cool hard hats.

[rocknrobn26]

You mean that the bargaining power that is an entire work group sticking together for decent wages, bennies, work conditions, equal treatment, making sure you have a shot at the promotion and not just Billy Bob's nephew, etc. is something that is not needed in today's very kind and gentle work environment where the company is always doing right by those that put the back into the profits?

 

These discussions will never end with pro and anti union people seeing eye to eye but I assure you that if you walked a mile in my shoes you would sing a different tune. While I am sure that some of what you suggest takes place that absolutely does not exist in any of the major labor and trade unions around here. The unions promote continuing education to make sure that everyone is on the top of their game. My outfit gets called in often to fix the booboos of the other company. Not that we don’t have booboos but I assure you that you will be hard pressed to get a union guy to botch up a job in order to save a company some dollars. That is one of the biggest reasons that a lot of companies don’t go to the hall to hire. Around Pittsburgh all the big companies that do big bid work all have union labor working for them. Most of the time the bid calls for them to pay prevailing wage anyway so you tell me why they don’t just pay that prevailing wage to the non-union guy but instead head to the hall and hire? Very often when that guy gets hired from the hall he never leaves the company that hired him. It is win win. Company found that top notch guy for life and top notch guy found a decent company that supports the union for life.

 

I really am going try to stay out of these threads. You have got to see that man get cracked in the head with a pipe wrench to see that the union guy had a hard hat on and watched him split his skull open. Then you have to hear the skull broken open guy tell you that he asked his very nice non union company for a hard hat since he noticed all the cool union guys wearing them and thought maybe that is a useful thing only to be told that if you want one, go buy one. Then he said maybe I will save up some of my $14.00 an hour job that pays for my wife and two kids and all our life habits as well as house and transportation and get me one of the those cool hard hats.

 

 

Bravo!!!! Bravo!

I'm w/ you my friend!

[billay]

To me, though, the interesting aspect of the GM/UAW situation was that it was approaching rock and a hard place status. The fundemental conflict of intrest was very poignent here. Do you protect the workers to such a degree that not only do their benefits become jeapordized , but their employment as well? I was happy to see that UAW will be shouldering the burden of managing benefits. Now we'll truly see how unreasonable GM was for trying to trim them.

[Skippy]

I think this was a great move by GM. It is not going to be easy for the UAW to do what they think that they can do but I have faith that they will motivate the current membership to a new level and in the end it is going to be a win win.

[westvirginia]

May I ask what you do? Because if its IT-related in any way, that's included in the broad definition of 'science' that I intended. (If not, that's cool too - do what you love, man.)

 

And I don't think most places using that model force you to do that if you don't want to - there are just heavy incentives (i.e. full ride scholarships) if you choose that path. They need really smart people in business and law too, obviously.

 

I was an accountant/accounting manager/financial analyst for nearly 13 years, but got into sales at the beginning of this year. Sarbanes/Oxley just made my position untenable, and my colleages were telling me the same, so I bolted. I don't disagree that CFO/CEO's need to be held responsible for their financial statements, even to the point of criminal liability. It's just that the law passed, in typical government fashion, with so much bloat and ridiculousness in it, that no one can deal with it without a bunch of additional costs. Since accountants are cost centers rather than revenue-enhancing folk, we were asking to do more with less. I didn't try to unionize - I got out of a miserable situation.

[westvirginia]

There's a difference between being able to do it, and being hired to do it.

 

You clearly have no idea what you are speaking of.

 

Guys, nearly anyone CAN do the job as it is currently structured. It's more about crowd control, earth day, socialization and teaching kids to be good little comrades than really educating them. I will agree with one thing though, if you upped the pay considerably then you'd get many more qualified applicants than you have now. And the results would definitely improve.

 

On the one hand, you get what you pay for. On the other, why are private schools able to do it for less than half the dollars/student? The only answer to that I've ever seen is the "we have to take every student" nonsense, and they don't here in GA, so...

[tonorator]

if i don't like the conditions or security in my current job, then i'm leaving to go get another one. why fight a company when i can leave to work for a better one? if the conditions are so bad, no one will want to work there and the place will go under on its own. we aren't living in the days where the coal mine is the only job in town (and even in those days, people could just ... you know ... leave).

 

i've never understood the desire to stay miserable vs. work harder to find a company/employer that appreciates and rewards your talents.

 

agree or disagree with management all you like, but they have to make the calls for the company to stay competitive. banding together as the workers to demand higher costs and to demand a voice in setting the company strategy makes no sense. you don't like where the company is going or how it is treating you (or not willing to buy you a hard hat), then leave. if you are getting screwed by corrupt leaders in the company, well, again, why stay?

 

as stated, unions may have had a role in the past to drive safe work conditions and some other base kinds of employment requirements, but our government has taken this over in spades with enough regulations to drown you.

[westvirginia]

if i don't like the conditions or security in my current job, then i'm leaving to go get another one. why fight a company when i can leave to work for a better one? if the conditions are so bad, no one will want to work there and the place will go under on its own. we aren't living in the days where the coal mine is the only job in town (and even in those days, people could just ... you know ... leave).

 

i've never understood the desire to stay miserable vs. work harder to find a company/employer that appreciates and rewards your talents.

 

agree or disagree with management all you like, but they have to make the calls for the company to stay competitive. banding together as the workers to demand higher costs and to demand a voice in setting the company strategy makes no sense. you don't like where the company is going or how it is treating you (or not willing to buy you a hard hat), then leave. if you are getting screwed by corrupt leaders in the company, well, again, why stay?

 

as stated, unions may have had a role in the past to drive safe work conditions and some other base kinds of employment requirements, but our government has taken this over in spades with enough regulations to drown you.

 

Shhhhh - don't confuse 'em with the facts. They've already made up their minds!

[Yukon Cornelius]

On the one hand, you get what you pay for. On the other, why are private schools able to do it for less than half the dollars/student? The only answer to that I've ever seen is the "we have to take every student" nonsense, and they don't here in GA, so...

jebus u are a dolt

 

they dont have special ed , ebd, 40 kids in a class, they have parents who care about there kids education, the list goes on... and georgia doesn't count.... what are they ranked about 38in the u.s ..... WOW i see it is a priority for people down there ...

 

hell id be home schooling my kids 2 if i was south of 40 degrees latitude .

Edited September 27, 2007 by Yukon Cornelius

[Perchoutofwater]

I really am going try to stay out of these threads. You have got to see that man get cracked in the head with a pipe wrench to see that the union guy had a hard hat on and watched him split his skull open. Then you have to hear the skull broken open guy tell you that he asked his very nice non union company for a hard hat since he noticed all the cool union guys wearing them and thought maybe that is a useful thing only to be told that if you want one, go buy one. Then he said maybe I will save up some of my $14.00 an hour job that pays for my wife and two kids and all our life habits as well as house and transportation and get me one of the those cool hard hats.

 

This is a stupid argument. Down here, nobody gets on a job site without a hard hat. If they try to get on one of our jobs with out one, they are kicked off the job immediately, that goes for ditch diggers all the way up to management, architects, and clients. Nobody is allowed on site with out a hard hat. If the guy in you fable above had just called the toll free number to OSHA, he would have had a hard hat, and the company would have found out real quick that it is cheaper to give everyone a $50 hard hat than it is to pay $1,400 fine for everyone that doesn't have one on.

[Skippy]

Perch - I know you and I work in two different enviroments. You are in consturction and I am a fitter. Trust me that what I post is no fable. I will be happy to take a few pictures and send them to you where you will see a half dozen men walking around in a boiler room that is being piped in with not a single hard hat on. Two different kinds of construction we are talking about but this is the truth. Oh and on that same job there are a group of electricians won't be seen with one on either. It is not a stupid argument. It is the truth.

[tonorator]

Perch - I know you and I work in two different enviroments. You are in consturction and I am a fitter. Trust me that what I post is no fable. I will be happy to take a few pictures and send them to you where you will see a half dozen men walking around in a boiler room that is being piped in with not a single hard hat on. Two different kinds of construction we are talking about but this is the truth. Oh and on that same job there are a group of electricians won't be seen with one on either. It is not a stupid argument. It is the truth.

 

are they not aware of the risks?

[Ursa Majoris]

Sarbanes/Oxley just made my position untenable, and my colleages were telling me the same, so I bolted. I don't disagree that CFO/CEO's need to be held responsible for their financial statements, even to the point of criminal liability. It's just that the law passed, in typical government fashion, with so much bloat and ridiculousness in it, that no one can deal with it without a bunch of additional costs.

Sarbox was the direct result of allowing companies to police themselves. When it went south, the politicians stepped in with their convoluted and costly law since they saw it as the only way to prevent more Enrons. Of course it's mostly bad law, bloated and over-reactionary - that is what happens when politicians are allowed to enter the game. The bottom line is that companies brought this crap on themselves and whining about the extra costs gets zero sympathy from me. I'll save mine for the people ruined by the greed and criminality that Sarbox was implemented to prevent.

[Yukon Cornelius]

Sarbox was the direct result of allowing companies to police themselves.

yah companies will look out for the greater good

[Bill Swerski]

I'm not against unions in general, but some of their demands are absolutely ridiculous. I was buying groceries at Safeway earlier this year and the checkout people were wearing buttons saying something about their union wanting full healthcare benefits. I asked my checkout lady what that was all about and she said that Safeway is currently ONLY paying out like 50% or 70% of their benefits and that they have to pay for the rest of it out of pocket.

 

Can you believe that crap? A freaking high school kid could do their jobs, and they want their employer to pay their healthcare benefits IN FULL. Most people with advanced degrees and actual skills don't get those benefits!

Edited September 27, 2007 by Bill Swerski

[Big Country]

I'm not against unions in general, but some of their demands are absolutely ridiculous. I was buying groceries at Safeway earlier this year and the checkout people were wearing buttons saying something about their union wanting full healthcare benefits. I asked my checkout lady what that was all about and she said that Safeway is currently ONLY paying out like 50% or 70% of their benefits and that they have to pay for the rest of it out of pocket.

 

Can you believe that crap? A freaking high school kid could do their jobs, and they want their employer to pay their healthcare benefits IN FULL. Most people with advanced degrees and actual skills don't get those benefits!

 

Well, they need to fight to get paid doouble time on Sundays. Currently they only get 1.67 base pay to work Sunday.

[Bill Swerski]

Well, they need to fight to get paid doouble time on Sundays. Currently they only get 1.67 base pay to work Sunday.

 

They're lucky that they get ANY benefits at all to do work that requires no skills outside of functional literacy. I know attorneys who don't get health benefits.

[billay]

I'm not against unions in general, but some of their demands are absolutely ridiculous. I was buying groceries at Safeway earlier this year and the checkout people were wearing buttons saying something about their union wanting full healthcare benefits. I asked my checkout lady what that was all about and she said that Safeway is currently ONLY paying out like 50% or 70% of their benefits and that they have to pay for the rest of it out of pocket.

 

Can you believe that crap? A freaking high school kid could do their jobs, and they want their employer to pay their healthcare benefits IN FULL. Most people with advanced degrees and actual skills don't get those benefits!

Now imagine if safeway had to continue to pay these people's benefits even after they have't been working for safeway for 10, 15, 20 yearsand you have GM.

Edited September 27, 2007 by billay

[Coffeeman]

Now imagine if safeway had to continue to pay these people's benefits even after they have't been working for safeway for 10, 15, 20 yearsand you have GM.

I guess the GMers should be paying a lot more dues for their membership than the supermarket unions - they're getting much better bang (at least in negotiating power) for their buck...

[Skippy]

are they not aware of the risks?

I don't know for sure if they do or not. I'm not in their heads but I do know that if you are one of the Union guys you will have that hat on because you will be told by all the rest of the guys that you need to protect that mellon. You will be reminded of the safety in that hat.

 

I'm not against unions in general, but some of their demands are absolutely ridiculous. I was buying groceries at Safeway earlier this year and the checkout people were wearing buttons saying something about their union wanting full healthcare benefits. I asked my checkout lady what that was all about and she said that Safeway is currently ONLY paying out like 50% or 70% of their benefits and that they have to pay for the rest of it out of pocket.

 

Can you believe that crap? A freaking high school kid could do their jobs, and they want their employer to pay their healthcare benefits IN FULL. Most people with advanced degrees and actual skills don't get those benefits!

I most certainly can believe it. One of the big reasons that I don't shop at Wal-Mart but instead at a local Giant Eagle is because of this very difference. I am trying to do my little part.

 

They're lucky that they get ANY benefits at all to do work that requires no skills outside of functional literacy. I know attorneys who don't get health benefits.

I am just wondering but why are we moaning about the no skill check out people but not moaning about the attorney that is getting screwed on his benefits? I had a nurse tell me that it is absurd that I get such good health care benefits while she gets almost nothing. My reply and this is honest is that it is absurd that YOU don't get my kind of benefits. Not the other way around.

 

Being a part of a union means that you will share in the wealth with everyone.

[Ursa Majoris]

I had a nurse tell me that it is absurd that I get such good health care benefits while she gets almost nothing. My reply and this is honest is that it is absurd that YOU don't get my kind of benefits. Not the other way around.

Good stuff here.

[tonorator]

I don't know for sure if they do or not. I'm not in their heads but I do know that if you are one of the Union guys you will have that hat on because you will be told by all the rest of the guys that you need to protect that mellon. You will be reminded of the safety in that hat.

 

so they don't tell the non-union guys this?

 

i'm sorry skip, but this example is whack. this isn't a need for unions, it is a need to follow safetly laws. OSHA has this blanketed i'm sure.

[rocknrobn26]

so they don't tell the non-union guys this?

 

i'm sorry skip, but this example is whack. this isn't a need for unions, it is a need to follow safetly laws. OSHA has this blanketed i'm sure.

 

Not whack at all. Unless things have changed, OSHA sets rules, they no longer do spot inspections for no cause, they investigate ONLY if there is a logged complaint, or if there is a "Lost Time Accident" or death. A lost time accident is defined as not returning to work the next day. As I said, this may have changed. In one sweat shop I worked for, a guy broached 2 finger tips off. He went to the e-room. The shop super convinced the guy to come back the next day and just sit and do very light work(actually he just sat all day). No report was needed, OSHA was never contacted, it was considered no worse than asking for a bandaid. As I said this was a long time ago (when OSHA was stricter) and things may have changed.

[Bill Swerski]

I am just wondering but why are we moaning about the no skill check out people but not moaning about the attorney that is getting screwed on his benefits? I had a nurse tell me that it is absurd that I get such good health care benefits while she gets almost nothing. My reply and this is honest is that it is absurd that YOU don't get my kind of benefits. Not the other way around.

 

I won't argue that the attorney is getting screwed, although the one that I speak of makes six figures and can afford supplemental insurance.

 

Why should workers with NO SKILLS AT ALL expect their employer to provide free healthcare? Or any benefits at all? Since when did working a check-out counter at a grocery store become a career and a main source of income, rather than a second job or a part-time job for high school kids or senior citizens? I don't see why an employer is expected to provide $1,000 worth of benefits a month to a worker who doesn't have any special skills whatsoever.