NOVA: Intelligent Design on Trial

[cre8tiff]

If good and evil are metaphors for the man or bestial side of humans, you are essentially making an implicit comparison between the two; so regardless of whether you call it a bestial side or reasoning side of the duality of humans, you are still arguing that good and evil do exist. Opposite of the scientific problem such as evolution, which might be solved by further observations, this presents a logical problem, the problem of clarifying and reconciling a number of beliefs. In it's simplest form, J.L. Mackie presents the problem like so: God is omnipotent; God is wholly good; and yet, evil exists. Whether evil is metaphorically described as the bestial side of humans or not, it exists.

 

So, the problem of the existence of evil still remains an issue. As mentioned previously, is God (a perfectly good and just being) willing to prevent evil, but not able to? This indicates God is lacking the power or ability to prevent evil. Is he able, but not willing? This would indicate God is malevolent, showing ill will, or wishing evil or harm to others. Is he both able and willing? If this is the case, from what place, source, or cause then is evil?

 

Those aren't the only two choices. An Intelligent Designer may wish his/her/its creations to make thier own choices and grow within the world of his/her/its making. Like an engineer who has created a perpetual motion machine. Fire it off and watch. People are so quick to say things like "It's God's will." Well guess what, maybe it's not. Maybe it's your will. Perhaps there is no Hell. Perhaps this world we live in is Hell, and you only get out of it by reaching a certain level of Enlightenment. Maybe the Buddists are right. The cold hard fact of the matter is, the only thing you can do is find your own personal Jesus, and come to peace with your own soul.

[Pope Flick]

Grunt -

 

First, it's important to distinguish between two kinds of evil: moral evil and natural evil. Moral evil results from the actions of free creatures. Murder, rape and theft are examples. Natural evil results from natural processes such as earthquakes and floods. Of course, sometimes the two are intermingled, such as when flooding results in loss of human life due to poor planning or shoddy construction of buildings.

 

It's also important to identify two aspects of the problem of evil and suffering. First, there is the philosophical or apologetic aspect. This is the problem of evil approached from the standpoint of the skeptic who challenges the possibility or probability that a God exists who would allow such suffering. In meeting this apologetic challenge we must utilize the tools of reason and evidence in "giving a reason for the hope within us." (I Pet. 3:15)

 

Second is the religious or emotional aspect of the problem of evil. This is the problem of evil approached from the standpoint of the believer whose faith in God is severely tested by trial. How can we love and worship God when He allows us to suffer in these ways? In meeting the religious/emotional challenge we must appeal to the truth revealed by God in Scripture. We will address both aspects of the problem of evil in this essay.

 

It's also helpful to distinguish between two types of the philosophical or apologetic aspect of the problem of evil. The first is the logical challenge to belief in God. This challenge says it is irrational and hence impossible to believe in the existence of a good and powerful God on the basis of the existence of evil in the world. The logical challenge is usually posed in the form of a statement such as this:

 

1. A good God would destroy evil.

2. An all powerful God could destroy evil.

3. Evil is not destroyed.

4. Therefore, there cannot possibly be such a good and powerful God.

 

It is logically impossible to believe that both evil, and a good and powerful God exist in the same reality, for such a God certainly could and would destroy evil.

 

On the other hand, the evidential challenge contends that while it may be rationally possible to believe such a God exists, it is highly improbable or unlikely that He does. We have evidence of so much evil that is seemingly pointless and of such horrendous intensity. For what valid reason would a good and powerful God allow the amount and kinds of evil which we see around us?

[I Like Soup]

Hey Pope, my short take on evil...it only exists while humans do. It is a human construct. Evil does not exist in nature.

 

:doneheavylifting:

[TheGrunt]

Those aren't the only two choices. An Intelligent Designer may wish his/her/its creations to make thier own choices and grow within the world of his/her/its making. Like an engineer who has created a perpetual motion machine. Fire it off and watch. People are so quick to say things like "It's God's will." Well guess what, maybe it's not. Maybe it's your will. Perhaps there is no Hell. Perhaps this world we live in is Hell, and you only get out of it by reaching a certain level of Enlightenment. Maybe the Buddists are right. The cold hard fact of the matter is, the only thing you can do is find your own personal Jesus, and come to peace with your own soul.

Well put! On a personal level, my faith very closely correlates a lot of what you mentioned here. In fact, during Recruit Training for the Marines we were allowed only Sunday mornings to ourselves, where we could write letter and, if desired, go to an hour long worship ceremony of your choice (religion-wise). While raised Christian, going to church almost every Sunday, I instead chose to attend the "teachings of the Awakened One" -- Buddhism. I thought it was the most intriguing and "enlightening" (pun/no-pun intended) of any other form of worship I had experienced. I loved it. However, I have not followed up on it since Recruit Training, so my knowledge of Buddhism isn't very deep. But I imagine some of my personal beliefs may stem from Buddhism.

 

In either case, now that I am more correctly understanding where you train of thought is on this subject, I mentioned this claim on page 24 (my second post) of this thread, "...the premise of your argument could be that the universe is orderly in a sense that is simply a matter of observation, and which, now, both sides can mutually accept a common ground interest to reason that evolution and God coexist."

[Ursa Majoris]

Hey Pope, my short take on evil...it only exists while humans do. It is a human construct. Evil does not exist in nature.

 

:doneheavylifting:

+1. I was going to comment directly to PFs rather good post but you've done the job. Good and evil really are entirely human constructs - everything else is neutral, it just is.

[TheGrunt]

Grunt -

 

First, it's important to distinguish between two kinds of evil: moral evil and natural evil. Moral evil results from the actions of free creatures. Murder, rape and theft are examples. Natural evil results from natural processes such as earthquakes and floods. Of course, sometimes the two are intermingled, such as when flooding results in loss of human life due to poor planning or shoddy construction of buildings.

 

It's also important to identify two aspects of the problem of evil and suffering. First, there is the philosophical or apologetic aspect. This is the problem of evil approached from the standpoint of the skeptic who challenges the possibility or probability that a God exists who would allow such suffering. In meeting this apologetic challenge we must utilize the tools of reason and evidence in "giving a reason for the hope within us." (I Pet. 3:15)

 

Second is the religious or emotional aspect of the problem of evil. This is the problem of evil approached from the standpoint of the believer whose faith in God is severely tested by trial. How can we love and worship God when He allows us to suffer in these ways? In meeting the religious/emotional challenge we must appeal to the truth revealed by God in Scripture. We will address both aspects of the problem of evil in this essay.

 

It's also helpful to distinguish between two types of the philosophical or apologetic aspect of the problem of evil. The first is the logical challenge to belief in God. This challenge says it is irrational and hence impossible to believe in the existence of a good and powerful God on the basis of the existence of evil in the world. The logical challenge is usually posed in the form of a statement such as this:

 

1. A good God would destroy evil.

2. An all powerful God could destroy evil.

3. Evil is not destroyed.

4. Therefore, there cannot possibly be such a good and powerful God.

 

It is logically impossible to believe that both evil, and a good and powerful God exist in the same reality, for such a God certainly could and would destroy evil.

 

On the other hand, the evidential challenge contends that while it may be rationally possible to believe such a God exists, it is highly improbable or unlikely that He does. We have evidence of so much evil that is seemingly pointless and of such horrendous intensity. For what valid reason would a good and powerful God allow the amount and kinds of evil which we see around us?

 

That was awesome.

 

Your end paragraph really drove the basis of your argument home. I'm in awe because I've been trying so hard to connect my arguments together, which your last paragraph does so clearly. Especially when inferring "...what valid reason would a good and powerful God allow the amount and kinds of evil which we see around us?"

 

Your well constructed argument sets a benchmark I aim to achieve in writing.

[jetsfan]

It could be that there are several Gods, a la the Greeks or Egyptians, and Peter the Pedophile and Gary the Genocide Guy are gaining in power

 

Your well constructed argument sets a benchmark I aim to achieve in writing.

 

Thank you. I do my best.

[CaP'N GRuNGe]

Grunt -

 

First, it's important to distinguish between two kinds of evil: moral evil and natural evil. Moral evil results from the actions of free creatures. Murder, rape and theft are examples. Natural evil results from natural processes such as earthquakes and floods. Of course, sometimes the two are intermingled, such as when flooding results in loss of human life due to poor planning or shoddy construction of buildings.

 

It's also important to identify two aspects of the problem of evil and suffering. First, there is the philosophical or apologetic aspect. This is the problem of evil approached from the standpoint of the skeptic who challenges the possibility or probability that a God exists who would allow such suffering. In meeting this apologetic challenge we must utilize the tools of reason and evidence in "giving a reason for the hope within us." (I Pet. 3:15)

 

Second is the religious or emotional aspect of the problem of evil. This is the problem of evil approached from the standpoint of the believer whose faith in God is severely tested by trial. How can we love and worship God when He allows us to suffer in these ways? In meeting the religious/emotional challenge we must appeal to the truth revealed by God in Scripture. We will address both aspects of the problem of evil in this essay.

 

It's also helpful to distinguish between two types of the philosophical or apologetic aspect of the problem of evil. The first is the logical challenge to belief in God. This challenge says it is irrational and hence impossible to believe in the existence of a good and powerful God on the basis of the existence of evil in the world. The logical challenge is usually posed in the form of a statement such as this:

 

1. A good God would destroy evil.

2. An all powerful God could destroy evil.

3. Evil is not destroyed.

4. Therefore, there cannot possibly be such a good and powerful God.

 

It is logically impossible to believe that both evil, and a good and powerful God exist in the same reality, for such a God certainly could and would destroy evil.

 

On the other hand, the evidential challenge contends that while it may be rationally possible to believe such a God exists, it is highly improbable or unlikely that He does. We have evidence of so much evil that is seemingly pointless and of such horrendous intensity. For what valid reason would a good and powerful God allow the amount and kinds of evil which we see around us?

 

Go ask Job?

[Jumpin Johnies]

What I miss?

[whomper]

What I miss?

 

 

We baptized Kid Cid

[tonorator]

Your well constructed argument sets a benchmark I aim to achieve in writing.

 

good god. this is

 

here's a question for you evolution whackos ... since this mega thread has not shook your faith, put your naturally-selected cognitive ability towards answering this ...

 

if indeed our ability to compose symphonies and construct intricate intellectual exercises such as fantasy football did originate from a mass of protoplasm that today you would scrape off your shoe, then we must still be evolving. i doubt that if you held that spoo in your hands 13 billions years ago, you would be able to fathom that it would evolve via random processes into beings that could travel to the moon or make a pizza. here we stand today on the brink of another 13 billion years, but we now have the advantage of self awareness and, despite how good-looking we are, we will serve as the goo for the more evolved creatures that will inhabit our planet in the future. what will we evolve to be next?

 

go ahead and make the obligitory cracks, but then do honestly take a stab at just what will happen to us ...

[TimC]

We baptized Kid Cid

 

in boiling water

[The Irish Doggy]

what will we evolve to be next?

 

 

Over the next 13 billion years? Wow, I can't even begin to imagine.

[jetsfan]

go ahead and make the obligitory cracks, but then do honestly take a stab at just what will happen to us ...

 

As technology and our Earth's atmosphere changes, we will adapt to it. Look how much humanity has changed since the industrial revolution. For instance, compare humans in Europe or the USA to those in central Africa. Our muscle and bone structure has altered slightly due to our primal needs. In developed countries, we no longer hunt for food, so our hunter skills and muscle groups have diminished.

 

To answer your question of what humanity will be like in billions of years, I have no idea. I can only hope that we, as a species, will continue to evolve and learn from our past.

[Savage Beatings]

The logical challenge is usually posed in the form of a statement such as this:

 

1. A good God would destroy evil.

2. An all powerful God could destroy evil.

3. Evil is not destroyed.

4. Therefore, there cannot possibly be such a good and powerful God.

 

It is logically impossible to believe that both evil, and a good and powerful God exist in the same reality, for such a God certainly could and would destroy evil.

 

The only way for a good and powerful God to destroy moral evil would be to take away free will, which in turn means no free thought, no true love, etc. So it is not at all logically impossible for both evil and a good and powerful God to exist.

[Kid Cid]

in boiling water

It burns! IT BURNS!!!!!

[Kid Cid]

good god. this is

 

here's a question for you evolution whackos ... since this mega thread has not shook your faith, put your naturally-selected cognitive ability towards answering this ...

 

if indeed our ability to compose symphonies and construct intricate intellectual exercises such as fantasy football did originate from a mass of protoplasm that today you would scrape off your shoe, then we must still be evolving. i doubt that if you held that spoo in your hands 13 billions years ago, you would be able to fathom that it would evolve via random processes into beings that could travel to the moon or make a pizza. here we stand today on the brink of another 13 billion years, but we now have the advantage of self awareness and, despite how good-looking we are, we will serve as the goo for the more evolved creatures that will inhabit our planet in the future. what will we evolve to be next?

 

go ahead and make the obligitory cracks, but then do honestly take a stab at just what will happen to us ...

 

How could we possibly know what ANY species may evolve into next? It could be entirely possible that the human species is a genetic dead end and that further species advancement comes from a branch of the feline genus. Because advancement through teh form of genetic or behavioral mutation is random and unpredictable, any speculation as to what the future might hold is just that speculation. However, since it would be documented on this site and it were to come true, I can only guess that we would have the same powers and abilities as the biblical prophets of yore.

[Kid Cid]

So even though I've offered a reasonable explanation, using Stephen Gould's example of the Panda's thumb (happy bushwacked?) to argue against intelligent design, how can you--without reason--assume the latter option, that God must exist?

 

He don't know me vewwy well, do he?

 

Coming at the question of God from a pure philosophical perspective is not new. However, philosophy is not my strong suit by any stretch so I won't pretend it is. I am a creature of observation with certain limited reasoning capabilities.

 

My statements were intended to be filled with sarcasm and derision towards those proposing ID be taught in schools. I was attempting to point out their certainty in their faith allows them no room for other thoughts.

[Kid Cid]

As far as the question of good v evil, they are polar opposites on a scale of based in morality, behavior, and consequence. As such, they are entirely man made constructs that can't exist without each other. Without knowledge of what good is, we cannot say what evil is and vice versa.

[TimC]

It burns! IT BURNS!!!!!

 

Then take the cross off.

[AtomicCEO]

http://www.mynetimages.com/485eaf5f.jpg

[evil_gop_liars]

It could be entirely possible that the human species is a genetic dead end and that further species advancement comes from a branch of the feline genus.

 

And we travel around the universe with a hologram and a robot fighting vindaloo monsters with lager.

 

 

 

"Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast."

[Pope Flick]

 

That was awesome.

 

Your end paragraph really drove the basis of your argument home. I'm in awe because I've been trying so hard to connect my arguments together, which your last paragraph does so clearly. Especially when inferring "...what valid reason would a good and powerful God allow the amount and kinds of evil which we see around us?"

 

Your well constructed argument sets a benchmark I aim to achieve in writing.

 

 

 

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/evil.html

 

You can read more here. Thanks soup and ursa, for driving the truck through that argument in the space of 14 words.

 

And Ton - 13 billion years: you give us too much credit. I don't think we get off the planet in a survivable fashion before the planet blows up (over 13 billion years) or we blow it up ourselves.

 

It sounds like because YOU can't understand that perhaps yes, we are, nothing more than intelligent mud you should be making more of the obligatory wisecracks.

[TheGrunt]

 

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/evil.html

 

You can read more here. Thanks soup and ursa, for driving the truck through that argument in the space of 14 words.

 

And Ton - 13 billion years: you give us too much credit. I don't think we get off the planet in a survivable fashion before the planet blows up (over 13 billion years) or we blow it up ourselves.

 

It sounds like because YOU can't understand that perhaps yes, we are, nothing more than intelligent mud you should be making more of the obligatory wisecracks.

Good info here. I've saved the link too, when I get a chance later today I'll ready through it.

[evil_gop_liars]

Good and Evil.