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Tipping question


Hugh 0ne
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20% would have been perfectly acceptable. The only thing I've evr heard you can tip less in a bottle of wine. If it is a $50 bottle, you don't need to tip $10 to the person who opens it for you.

 

FYI - The server will have to tip out on his/her total sales for the night regardless if it was food or a $500 bottle of bubbly. At some places it can be 3-5% of your total sales. Most wont care but it really adds up if you short on liquor. Taxes are also figured out with total sales, most servers just claim 10% of thier total sales or thier credit card tips, whichever's higher.

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I've also never seen food and booze split on the check.

 

Did you mention to your server that it was a company outing? I bet you did or they overheard and was trying to save themselves some time at the end of your meal by preemptively seperating the liquor sales. Nothing will get you in the weeds faster than having to split checks at the end of someones visit. Seriously inconsiderate to not say up front that you want seperate checks, just FYI.

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if the service is good i will tip the 20% with cash even if paying the total bill with a cc so the server gets the loot immediately and tax free.

This is a nice gesture but not one that typically does not make much difference. To begin with, nearly every restaurant settles out the cash with their wait-staff at the end of the night, so they get their charged tips pretty much right away. Ironically, most would be better off if this was not the case because they'd get a nice sized check at the end of the week rather than cash to go blow at a downtown bar (but that's neither here nor there as these are all adults anyway).

 

As far as it being tax-free. Waiters declared tips are usually determined by a percentage of sales, so whether the tip is cash or cc, won't make a difference.

 

This is where it might matter. More and more, restaurants are passing on the 2% (or so) CC fee on charged tips to the waiters. After all, this is money the restaurant will never see, so it's not fair that they should have to pay the fee for collecting that money. We do so and it obviously does not amount to much to each waiter. For instance, even on a really good night, even if all their sales are credit card sales, they're going to have to fork over $5 of $250 they made.

 

In all honesty, I think tipping is among the most bizarre consumer related things going. On one hand, it creates a situation where a young, transitional work force can make unreal amounts of money. For instance, I had a waiter take care of one party of 25 (with support from a back waiter) on Thursday night and walk with $450. He worked hard but that's some nice scratch for a non-professional working 6 hours. On the other hand, they're subject to very random compensation at the whims of the consumer. This includes being legally powerless to auto-grat a check if the customer inadvertently takes the copy of the CC receipt that has the tip on it. In that case, the waiter is out of luck. The good news, at least for my crew is that they typically make pretty good money. Something I remind them when they miss out on $5-$10 here and there. The place is popular, has loyal regulars who leave happy, and thus the waiters have more than enough fat tips to make up for these issues.

 

None the less, it is a strange form of paying a pretty large work force.

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I am no expert but I have always tipped on the total bill. I am not a big driner at a resturant so I don't know what to think when at times those drins are up there in price. :D Seems like a bill could be way over inflated with a few rounds of tasty drins.

you mocing me?

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This is a nice gesture but not one that typically does not make much difference. To begin with, nearly every restaurant settles out the cash with their wait-staff at the end of the night, so they get their charged tips pretty much right away. Ironically, most would be better off if this was not the case because they'd get a nice sized check at the end of the week rather than cash to go blow at a downtown bar (but that's neither here nor there as these are all adults anyway).

 

As far as it being tax-free. Waiters declared tips are usually determined by a percentage of sales, so whether the tip is cash or cc, won't make a difference.

 

This is where it might matter. More and more, restaurants are passing on the 2% (or so) CC fee on charged tips to the waiters. After all, this is money the restaurant will never see, so it's not fair that they should have to pay the fee for collecting that money. We do so and it obviously does not amount to much to each waiter. For instance, even on a really good night, even if all their sales are credit card sales, they're going to have to fork over $5 of $250 they made.

 

In all honesty, I think tipping is among the most bizarre consumer related things going. On one hand, it creates a situation where a young, transitional work force can make unreal amounts of money. For instance, I had a waiter take care of one party of 25 (with support from a back waiter) on Thursday night and walk with $450. He worked hard but that's some nice scratch for a non-professional working 6 hours. On the other hand, they're subject to very random compensation at the whims of the consumer. This includes being legally powerless to auto-grat a check if the customer inadvertently takes the copy of the CC receipt that has the tip on it. In that case, the waiter is out of luck. The good news, at least for my crew is that they typically make pretty good money. Something I remind them when they miss out on $5-$10 here and there. The place is popular, has loyal regulars who leave happy, and thus the waiters have more than enough fat tips to make up for these issues.

 

None the less, it is a strange form of paying a pretty large work force.

 

 

 

I think this is BS, it doesn't matter how small of an amount it is. Being a server is a stressful job and the restaraunt you work for nickel and diming you is terrible. Why shouldn't the restaraunt eat the 2%, they get away with paying you $2.65 an hour (at least in MI) and let the customers make up the rest. Not every server is 18 and lives with mommy and daddy, some have families and need to pay the bills, so any amount of $ they're forced to eat can hurt.

 

 

Oh and by the way...tip on the whole bill including tax, that's rediculous. I firmly believe that every person should have to be a server for a year of their life.

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I think this is BS, it doesn't matter how small of an amount it is. Being a server is a stressful job and the restaraunt you work for nickel and diming you is terrible. Why shouldn't the restaraunt eat the 2%, they get away with paying you $2.65 an hour (at least in MI) and let the customers make up the rest. Not every server is 18 and lives with mommy and daddy, some have families and need to pay the bills, so any amount of $ they're forced to eat can hurt.

Oh and by the way...tip on the whole bill including tax, that's rediculous. I firmly believe that every person should have to be a server for a year of their life.

I'll tell you why at least I do. To begin with, I eat any mistakes they make. If something gets misfired and I'm not lucky enough to have another home for that dish, it goes to the back to get snacked upon by the same people who screwed up at my cost. Secondly, I feed those guys every shift. Not many other jobs feed their employees during their paid break.

 

Unlike other places that take advantage of the fact that the waitstaff is the lowest hourly cost to the restaurant and piles up a bunch of crap cleaning work, mine are responsible for little more than folding napkins, stocking the wait station and making sure their section is straight before the shift.

 

At least once a week, we have people doing high end tasting menus. Either the wines are already chosen, or myself or the manager consults them on what they should drink. The waiter, in that case is nothing more than a food runner and usually makes about $100 on that table alone. In most cases, the tasting menus are done at the kitchen bar so my chef du cuisine and I actually hand them the food as well, so they're really just a busser.

 

I think that makes up for the $10-$25 per week I don't pay on their behalf to the credit card company.

 

Cry me a freaking river about the low minimum wage. The simple fact is, the waitstaff and bartenders typically take home more per hour than all but the highest management positions there. Should I pay for their laundry because I expect them to have a clean, pressed shirt? Should I pay their gas money because they need to get here? Should I buy them new shoes because the job means theirs wear out faster than most? It's all a cost of doing business.

 

It's really strange what a strong volunteer lobby the wait profession has. There is no sales position that approaches as high a commission as waiting tables does. I've heard people complain that sometimes restaurants charge a party a flat rate per server that's higher than the amount they paid the servers themselves. Do they think that the $80/hour roto rooter charges you when dude comes to clean your drain all goes to him?

 

Ask any of my waiters if they feel "nickel and dimed". When I lose a waiter, it's because they moved away. If they move back to the area, the first thing they do is ask me if I've got any shifts they can pick up.

Edited by detlef
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I'll tell you why at least I do. To begin with, I eat any mistakes they make. If something gets misfired and I'm not lucky enough to have another home for that dish, it goes to the back to get snacked upon by the same people who screwed up at my cost. Secondly, I feed those guys every shift. Not many other jobs feed their employees during their paid break.

 

Unlike other places that take advantage of the fact that the waitstaff is the lowest hourly cost to the restaurant and piles up a bunch of crap cleaning work, mine are responsible for little more than folding napkins, stocking the wait station and making sure their section is straight before the shift.

 

At least once a week, we have people doing high end tasting menus. Either the wines are already chosen, or myself or the manager consults them on what they should drink. The waiter, in that case is nothing more than a food runner and usually makes about $100 on that table alone. In most cases, the tasting menus are done at the kitchen bar so my chef du cuisine and I actually hand them the food as well, so they're really just a busser.

 

I think that makes up for the $10-$25 per week I don't pay on their behalf to the credit card company.

 

Cry me a freaking river about the low minimum wage. The simple fact is, the waitstaff and bartenders typically take home more per hour than all but the highest management positions there. Should I pay for their laundry because I expect them to have a clean, pressed shirt? Should I pay their gas money because they need to get here? Should I buy them new shoes because the job means theirs wear out faster than most? It's all a cost of doing business.

 

It's really strange what a strong volunteer lobby the wait profession has. There is no sales position that approaches as high a commission as waiting tables does. I've heard people complain that sometimes restaurants charge a party a flat rate per server that's higher than the amount they paid the servers themselves. Do they think that the $80/hour roto rooter charges you when dude comes to clean your drain all goes to him?

 

Ask any of my waiters if they feel "nickel and dimed". When I lose a waiter, it's because they moved away. If they move back to the area, the first thing they do is ask me if I've got any shifts they can pick up.

 

 

 

First of all I wasn't speaking to your restaraunt specifically, more in general...and I'm glad your servers do well, but across the board that is definitely not the case. I have worked in a restaraunt for the past 10 years and will continue to do so for the next 2 or so until I finish school (can't wait for that), and guess what my job is.....server. The fact of the matter is there aren't a lot of restaraunts out there where you can make a TON of money, and believe me I would feel every dollar extra I was forced to pay (or cost I was forced to eat). It just pisses me off when restaraunt management and owners turn to servers for "cheap labor" or whatever......not only do they get to pay me practically nothing, they get to pay the bartenders and server assistants a low wage as well because we supplement their wages by tipping out. It is very common to overstaff on servers if something needs to be done rather than pay someone an hourly wage to do the work, and that sucks for more than one reason...first I have to do extra work for practically no pay(which isn't a big problem unless it's being taking advantage of), and second now there are extra servers on taking tables that I could have had, so in reality I'm paying to get the extra work done, it's BS. Sounds like you got your chit together at your restaraunt, but believe me that isn't how it works everywhere, and because of this kind of crap I think it's chitty to nickel and dime servers, especially over 2% of tips.

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First of all I wasn't speaking to your restaraunt specifically, more in general...and I'm glad your servers do well, but across the board that is definitely not the case. I have worked in a restaraunt for the past 10 years and will continue to do so for the next 2 or so until I finish school (can't wait for that), and guess what my job is.....server. The fact of the matter is there aren't a lot of restaraunts out there where you can make a TON of money, and believe me I would feel every dollar extra I was forced to pay (or cost I was forced to eat). It just pisses me off when restaraunt management and owners turn to servers for "cheap labor" or whatever......not only do they get to pay me practically nothing, they get to pay the bartenders and server assistants a low wage as well because we supplement their wages by tipping out. It is very common to overstaff on servers if something needs to be done rather than pay someone an hourly wage to do the work, and that sucks for more than one reason...first I have to do extra work for practically no pay(which isn't a big problem unless it's being taking advantage of), and second now there are extra servers on taking tables that I could have had, so in reality I'm paying to get the extra work done, it's BS. Sounds like you got your chit together at your restaraunt, but believe me that isn't how it works everywhere, and because of this kind of crap I think it's chitty to nickel and dime servers, especially over 2% of tips.

I hear you, and am sorry that you currently work or have worked for less-scrupulous restaurants who squeeze their staff. I reacted the way I did as it was not a stretch to feel that you were attacking the manner in which I do business.

 

There are, of course, two sides to these situations and the waiters side tends to get the most sympathy. Often times to a fault. The whole waitstaff tipping out thing is a fine example. The more support staff a restaurant provides waiters, the less waiter they need to have on the floor and the more tables the waiters get. The restaurant could do away with busboys and runners but that would mean that you couldn't manage as many tables since you'd be filling waters, clearing plates and turning tables. It's six of one, half dozen of the other. After all, the customer is tipping you for serving them, if you've got runners bringing food and bussers picking it up, all the waiter is doing is taking orders and ringing up checks (unless there's also someone in charge of that as well). I can assure you that nobody would tip 20% if all they thought you were doing was taking their order. Thus, the 20% should be spread around the entire team responsible for the service.

 

Having this support staff does the waiter more good than the restaurant. For starters, that support staff typically makes a higher per hour base wage than waiters do, so the restaurant is replacing an extra waiter with someone they may be paying twice as much to. Secondly, the waiters make the highest percentage cut of the tip, so it's better than having to share the dining room with another waiter.

 

It should be known that, as tough as waiting tables is and as hard as it is to rely on such random compensation, the group with the most to lose if the industry went to hourly wages and either did away with tips entirely or auto-tipped like they do in Europe is the waitstaff. I can assure you that the vast majority of servers or bartenders would make less than they do now. Nicer places would pay their servers better than diners (just as they do their kitchen staff) and plenty would still make a decent amount of money. However, the change would manifest itself in either higher wages for managers and kitchen staff, more money in the owners pocket, lower prices to the consumer, or some combination thereof.

 

Understand that the entire dynamic of tipping ultimately costs the restaurant money. Whether they are aware of it or not, the 20% "tax" on dining out affects consumer spending. I, for one, will often avoid a sit-down restaurant if I am simply just interested in feeding myself and the extra couple of bucks for a service that I don't want at the time does factor in. I mean, we discuss how raising taxes a point or two could affect the economy, so certainly a 20% "tax" does. Of course, when I want to dine. I go to a nice place and take good care of the server.

 

Take the tasting menu example I gave. If tip could be capped on that so that a person who had a relatively minor role in the experience did not get paid $100, perhaps the customer would be inclined to come more often. I mean, is the waiter getting "screwed" if they only make $50 to clear a bunch of plates and open a few bottles of wine? I'm not saying that I would consider doing this but it would be in my best interest. I can also assure you that if the industry went to an automatic tip system, some of that $100 would end up mine.

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But you receive no goods or services in connection with the tax. Seems odd to tip on that amount.

 

Technically, you are correct. My grandpa for sure took out the tax and my dad probably does as well, so i think it is somewhat a generation thing. I personally do not. I just look at the final bill and tip on that. I waited tables back in college and for a couple years after and can tell you that waiters look at the bill and see what kind of tip was left on the total - that's just the way it is.

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you mocing me?

You're a sharp one. :D

 

I didn't read this entire thread but I caught one part about tipping with cash instead of a credit card.

 

I really do not think that matters at all. I have a few waiters that wait on me and my family all the time and I have flat out asked them if it matters and not one single one said it mattered. We are pretty close with a few of these people and if there was a reason that tipping them with money would be better at least one or two of them would tell me.

Edited by Skippy
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Pre-tax vs. post-tax is a matter of like, what, 10% of the tip, at the very most? Why do you people put so much effort into being so cheap?

I believe I am a decent tipper ((accept I do not tip repair men, contractors and such as my neighbor says I should))

 

I've likely always tipped on the post tax amount... but moving forward, I am going to tip pre-tax. I guess I never thought of it and believe that a states sales tax has nothing to do with the quality of service.

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I believe I am a decent tipper ((accept I do not tip repair men, contractors and such as my neighbor says I should))

 

I've likely always tipped on the post tax amount... but moving forward, I am going to tip pre-tax. I guess I never thought of it and believe that a states sales tax has nothing to do with the quality of service.

How much can that really change a tip. Maybe a dollar or two at most the majority of times. I know that my state sales tax is 7% so on a $50.00 bill there would be $3.50 in sales tax making the bill $53.50. 20% of that bill makes it a $10.70 tip. If you take the $3.50 sales tax off then you are going to tip a square $10.00.

 

A matter of .70 difference at %20. I am not going to go through the work of taking the sales tax off.

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I'm not saying that I would consider doing this but it would be in my best interest. I can also assure you that if the industry went to an automatic tip system, some of that $100 would end up mine.

 

In the long run I believe changing to a non-tipping system would hurt everyone envolved. Do you think you would be able to recruit waiters as talented as you do now if all that was offered was an hourly wage? What do you feel would be a fair wage? $10/hr? $12? I would never spent time as a server for $10/hr. I dont want "Off-The-Boat-Carlos" taking my order (wrong). Nor do I want "Just-Outa-MiddleSchool-Jimmy" either. It's not an easy job. I am in a hiring role now and respect when I see someone spent time as a server on thier resume.

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detlef, being in the indusrty, I usually agree with you.

 

But taking back your 2% is simply cheap no matter how you justify it with free food, etc.

 

Yes you are in the right to keep it, but it just looks bad from an employee point of view.

 

And as a customer, if I found out that a restaurant owner was keeping part of my tip, I wouldn't go back.

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And as a customer, if I found out that a restaurant owner was keeping part of my tip, I wouldn't go back.

Same with me. As a family we eat out very often. There have been plenty of places whacked off our list for one reason or another and as I mentioned I am not above talking to the wait person about the tip or the conditions of work. If I found out that a place was holding back 2% due to me using my CC I would not share my money with that place any longer. Now if the place wants to give me a 2% discount if I pay cash for my entire bill then maybe I could see this but I doubt it.

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In the long run I believe changing to a non-tipping system would hurt everyone envolved. Do you think you would be able to recruit waiters as talented as you do now if all that was offered was an hourly wage? What do you feel would be a fair wage? $10/hr? $12? I would never spent time as a server for $10/hr. I dont want "Off-The-Boat-Carlos" taking my order (wrong). Nor do I want "Just-Outa-MiddleSchool-Jimmy" either. It's not an easy job. I am in a hiring role now and respect when I see someone spent time as a server on thier resume.

You have a valid point. However, I think service, as a whole is already suffering and it's certainly not due to waiters not being suitably compensated. I think there are simply more "fine dining" places out there and it has created a situation where there's a ton more waiters jobs than there are people who are good at it. Once upon a time, you basically had two styles of restaurants. Lower end chain places and independent high-end. The better waiters ended up at the independents, served higher check averages, and made better money. Meanwhile, the rest were running eggs at Denny's.

 

Now there's another segment. The high-end chain segment is huge. Cheesecake Factory, etc. move in and take a freaking army of waiters and bartenders to run them. This doesn't effect the kitchen staffing so much because there's more people who have artistic issues with working at a chain. While this is true for some waiters, it is, by nature, a more mercenary job. If there's more money to be made there... Thus, you pull from the bottom up. People who would have been taking the OK jobs, now get the great ones. People who would have had the bad ones get the OK ones and people who would have been barely employable get the OK ones. Regardless of what the tip is, the consumer is getting worse service than they did 20 years ago.

 

For instance, when I was coming up in the industry as a busboy, at a nice place, waiters were in their late 20s to early 30s and busboys were in their early 20s. Now I think I have one waiter on my staff who's even 25. I knew more about food and wine as a busboy than most of my waiters do now. Before you could get promoted, you really had to know your stuff. Now, I've said before that I like my crew and they are a good, hardworking group. I will say, however, that, with very few exceptions, I have thoroughly trained my crew. Nearly everything they know about fine food and wine, they've learned at my restaurant or at very least, have been inspired to learn while employed at my restaurant. The next fully trained, truly professional waiter that walks through my door looking for a job might be the first.

 

The simple fact is, waiting tables shouldn't be, at least for a vast majority of those who do it, a way to make a lot of money. There's a reason why it should be the job you do until you can move on to your ultimate career. Many of the other jobs we do along the way are hard work and don't pay much. However, there's a good reason why there are likely more highly educated waiters than all other "transitional" types of employment. That's because you can make more money doing that then what you went to school for. That tells me that segment of the labor force is over-paid which means they have the most to lose from a shift in how they get paid.

 

I am very confident that if I paid my wait-staff about $15 per hour, I would have about the same staff I have right now. There would be fancier places that paid more, but most of the people I have working for me wouldn't be able to get those gigs because they're too green with respect to formal service and wine knowledge. I'd be competing with retail stores for these workers and be able to pay 50% more than what they do.

 

What is $15 compared to what they make right now? On a busy night, four servers and a bartender will sell about $4500. That's $1000 each and $500 for the bartender. Take 18% of that ($180) and back out tipping the support staff (including the bartender which evens out the fact that he's got less sales). They're walking with $140. Divide that by 6.5 hours and add back the hourly that I do pay them and they're making $24/hour.

 

On an average weekday? About $19.50/hr.

 

That's some pretty good scratch especially when you consider the fact that the hours allow you to go to school or even get your feet in the door of whatever day job you're hoping to someday land.

 

Obviously, if I unilaterally switched over and starting paying $15, they'd all get pissed and leave. Who'd happily accept a cut in pay? Even if the industry shift all at once together it would suck in the short term. I really don't see it ever happening and was simply pointing out that the servers are the ones getting the best end of the current deal.

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detlef, being in the indusrty, I usually agree with you.

 

But taking back your 2% is simply cheap no matter how you justify it with free food, etc.

 

Yes you are in the right to keep it, but it just looks bad from an employee point of view.

 

And as a customer, if I found out that a restaurant owner was keeping part of my tip, I wouldn't go back.

wurd.... the cooks , dish boys and others better be getting some of the loot aswell

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As a pizza driver for a major chain, who gets tipped, I want to make a couple comments about the credit card stuff.

 

1) We do get our CC tips paid to us in cash at the end of the night. We don't have to wait until payday.

 

2) We do have to declare a minimum % of our total sales as tips. For drivers it it 5%. I count my tips and declare my actual tips to the nearest dollar. It is usually closer to 12-15%.

 

3) I usually only get $3-10 in credit card tips per night. The 2% would be a nickel or a quarter. But if my management decided to dock me for it, I would be royally pissed. It's not my choice to accept credit cards, it's the choice of management. I shouldn't have to pay the fee.

 

There's a cost of doing business in cash also. The manager has to count his drawer and reconcile at the end of the night. Why not dock all the employees a few cents to cover this manager's time? It seems like the same thing to me. As others have said, cheap.

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I gotta agree about keeping the 2% is purty cheap. I always use my debit card thinking the waiter is getting the full amount of the tip I write down. You should be like those crappy "discount" stores that jack up the price 2% if you pay by credit card if you're holding it back from the waitstaff.

Edited by TimC
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