Caveman_Nick Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 My restaurant accepts reservations, so I have to have a phone line. My phone line costs $100 per month, and I accept 400 reservations per month. From now on I'm going to assign each reservation a cost of 25 cents to cover my phone bill. Since the average tip is 20% at my restaurant, I'm going to allocate this 20% of this 20 cents (or 5 cents) to the waiter, and charge him 5 cents for each table that he has that made a reservation, to cover his share of my phone bill. Sound ridiculous? Just because a cost can be itemized and matched up with an employee, doesn't mean that cost should be passed on to that employee. Kevin, FWIW I have no stake in this discussion. I am not party to running any restaurant at this time. I have worked in them and have been closely associated with people at all levels of working in them and running them, though, and I understand how they run and what the cost structures are. In this discussion you are being obstinate. This is not a cost to the restaurant, it's a percentage charge on your tips. Phone lines, food cost, alcohol cost, etc., are not comparable items with your tip. It only exists as a part of your tip. It does not correlate to any cost of running the restaurant. You want the restaurant to pay it so it isn't money the CC company skims off your tips. That's completely understandable, but that does not in any way make it a cost of the restaurant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 You keep insisting on this. Why is any part of your tip associated with his cost of anything? It's your tip. Why should he supplement it? because its his merchant account and he(meaning any biz) decided that accepting credit cards was going to be better for their business....the wait staff did not make the decision to accept CC's and i dont need to hear how accepting CCs will increase the bill and how much money they make in tips....having electric to power your lights does the same thing so does that mean that the employees should be paying a % of the electric and utility bills too? would it be ok for the wait staff to say I am sorry but we only take CC for the food/drink part of the bill...all tips have to be cash? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 Just because a cost can be itemized and matched up with an employee, doesn't mean that cost should be passed on to that employee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 Kevin, FWIW I have no stake in this discussion. I am not party to running any restaurant at this time. I have worked in them and have been closely associated with people at all levels of working in them and running them, though, and I understand how they run and what the cost structures are. In this discussion you are being obstinate. This is not a cost to the restaurant, it's a percentage charge on your tips. Phone lines, food cost, alcohol cost, etc., are not comparable items with your tip. It only exists as a part of your tip. It does not correlate to any cost of running the restaurant. You want the restaurant to pay it so it isn't money the CC company skims off your tips. That's completely understandable, but that does not in any way make it a cost of the restaurant. yes it does....having a Wait staff is a cost of doing business...knowing that a wait staff makes bread off of tips means that anything associated with their employment is a CODB again i say the restaurant made the decision that it will accept CCs not the wait staff...again what would a restaurant do if the wait staff started saying i am sorry all tips have to be in cash? Yeah that would probably cost the wait staff $$ but it would also cost the restaurant biz too...so at that point would the restaurant tell the wait staff they couldnt say that? You bet your bottom dollar they wouldnt allow that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveman_Nick Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 yes it does....having a Wait staff is a cost of doing business...knowing that a wait staff makes bread off of tips means that anything associated with their employment is a CODB again i say the restaurant made the decision that it will accept CCs not the wait staff...again what would a restaurant do if the wait staff started saying i am sorry all tips have to be in cash? Yeah that would probably cost the wait staff $$ but it would also cost the restaurant biz too...so at that point would the restaurant tell the wait staff they couldnt say that? You bet your bottom dollar they wouldnt allow that. I find your logic to be backwards. It's not a CODB, it's part of the package when you take the job. You are trying to take something that is outside of the operational cost of the restaurant and make it a part of the operational cost. In the end, what I said earlier is the golden rule. If the restaurant is going to pay the 2% of the tips, then what is really going to happen is that the customer will pay the 2%. That raises the prices at the restaurant, potentially turns off clients, and is worse for everyone involved. If I were to run a restaurant, I would run this part of it in the way Detlef runs his. The best food at a good cost puts money in the pockets of the servers, because they will have customers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 CODB, no?....also fwiw allowing them to snack on it is your prerogative and probably one that could actually be taken advantage of..."hey i am hungry so let me put in a wrong order and we will have snacks" that would be something that could happen....feeding them on their breaks is INVESTING in your employees IMO....you decided to do it and it shouldnt have anything to do with why you charge them the 2% CC fee. i would listen to keg here. his bears are extremely well-fed and get to keep 100% of their tips. which explains why they all seem to have smiles permanantly stitched on their faces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 I find your logic to be backwards. It's not a CODB, it's part of the package when you take the job. You are trying to take something that is outside of the operational cost of the restaurant and make it a part of the operational cost. In the end, what I said earlier is the golden rule. If the restaurant is going to pay the 2% of the tips, then what is really going to happen is that the customer will pay the 2%. That raises the prices at the restaurant, potentially turns off clients, and is worse for everyone involved. If I were to run a restaurant, I would run this part of it in the way Detlef runs his. The best food at a good cost puts money in the pockets of the servers, because they will have customers. so what would an owner do if the wait staff said I am sorry but i only accept cash tips. we just agree to disagree(as usual ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveman_Nick Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 (edited) so what would an owner do if the wait staff said I am sorry but i only accept cash tips. we just agree to disagree(as usual ) They'd fire that server. The rest would come along quickly then. I can agree to disagree...no problem. Except that the fact that at least one restaurant has success and happy employees doing things in the fashion that I am defending suggests that things can run fine this way. It's just empirical data, though, why let that get in the way of opinions Edited December 3, 2007 by Caveman_Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chester Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 I guess my biggest thing is that I've never heard of this until Det brought it up in a different thread. Maybe it's an east coast thing I will do an informal poll of the servers and bartenders that come in for the next few nights, but I've often asked my friends whether they prefered cash and the only reasons I've ever been given is to not pay taxes and because some don't get it back until payday. I suppose that it's possible that they just don't know about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 so what would an owner do if the wait staff said I am sorry but i only accept cash tips. we just agree to disagree(as usual ) The server runs the same risk the restaurant would by not accepting credit cards. A loss of revenue. Like the restaurant, the server could run the risk of the customer forfeiting the convenience of credit cards and paying cash. Or, the customer could say, "OK, i guess I won't tip." This is what you are all missing when you talk about the customer not wanting the restaurant to skim off .20 of that $10 tip. That .20 never makes it to the restaurant. It doesn't exist. Just like when they charge a $100 meal, $2 of it never made it to the restaurant. Like so much of the money you spend, it gets used up in ways that you didn't realize. So, what you're saying as a customer is, "I'm going to pay Visa $10 to give this kid a $9.80 tip and I want you, the restaurant, to pay him the other .20." Dude wins the lottery, buys a cup of coffee, charges it and leaves a $1000 tip. Restaurant sells a $2 cup of coffee and pays $20 so the waiter can make a $1000 tip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveman_Nick Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 So, what you're saying as a customer is, "I'm going to pay Visa $10 to give this kid a $9.80 tip and I want you, the restaurant, to pay him the other .20." I tried to make this point before, but it was glossed over. Well said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 because its his merchant account and he(meaning any biz) decided that accepting credit cards was going to be better for their business....the wait staff did not make the decision to accept CC's and i dont need to hear how accepting CCs will increase the bill and how much money they make in tips....having electric to power your lights does the same thing so does that mean that the employees should be paying a % of the electric and utility bills too? would it be ok for the wait staff to say I am sorry but we only take CC for the food/drink part of the bill...all tips have to be cash? They did, however, willingly join my staff knowing this fee would be passed on to them. You could argue that if everyone did that, they'd have no choice and that's not fair to them. Gee, kind of sounds like being in the position of needing to accept credit cards or lose business to those that do. Sucks for everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godtomsatan Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 So, what you're saying as a customer is, "I'm going to pay Visa $10 to give this kid a $9.80 tip and I want you, the restaurant, to pay him the other .20." No, I believe a customer (or even an employee) figures a portion of the $50 meal covered that expense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 They did, however, willingly join my staff knowing this fee would be passed on to them. You could argue that if everyone did that, they'd have no choice and that's not fair to them. Gee, kind of sounds like being in the position of needing to accept credit cards or lose business to those that do. Sucks for everyone. ok i see when can go round and round about it and no one is going to have their mind changed but answer me this question.... if the 2% is such a small % of your overall expense then why do you pass it on to the servers instead of just eating it? A. [H8Tank] Because you are a cheap bastard [/H8Tank] B.Because I can. C. Puddy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 No, I believe a customer (or even an employee) figures a portion of the $50 meal covered that expense. How can you say no? Even if you think the restaurant should pay, that is what you are saying. As a Visa member, you have commissioned them to pay the waiter on your behalf. This is not a transaction that involves the restaurant beyond the fact that they have created a venue for it to happen. If it was not between you and the waiter, why do have the option to leave whatever you like? So, your business with the restaurant owner is now done. You are free to walk out anytime. You have chosen the convenience of the credit card at the expense of a 2% hit to said merchant. However, in order to not be a total schmuck, you have decided to enter into another transaction before you leave. This one is with the service staff as represented by your waiter. Like the previous transaction, should you choose to use a credit card, 2% of it gets lopped off in Wilmington Delaware before it reaches it's final destination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 No, I believe a customer (or even an employee) figures a portion of the $50 meal covered that expense. i think most customers are smart enough to know that if they pay for $40 in food and a $10 tip with their visa, visa is taking a buck or two. i doubt most of them bother to give a second thought to the question of whether that 2% is pro-rated over the entire amount, so that the restaurant pays 2% out of their take and the waiter pays 2% out of his, or the restaurant pays 2.5% and the waiter none. i certainly never bothered to consider it. would i be troubled in the slightest to learn that the waiter only got $9.80, the other two dimes going to pay for the CC fees on his tip? nope. in fact, i think it makes perfect sense that a waiter should pay the fees on his own portion of the overall take. but on the other hand, if i owned a restaurant, i think i'd try and find a way to pinch pennies that didn't make me look like such an insufferably cheap bassturd to my employees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 How can you say no? Even if you think the restaurant should pay, that is what you are saying. As a Visa member, you have commissioned them to pay the waiter on your behalf. This is not a transaction that involves the restaurant beyond the fact that they have created a venue for it to happen. If it was not between you and the waiter, why do have the option to leave whatever you like? So, your business with the restaurant owner is now done. You are free to walk out anytime. You have chosen the convenience of the credit card at the expense of a 2% hit to said merchant. However, in order to not be a total schmuck, you have decided to enter into another transaction before you leave. This one is with the service staff as represented by your waiter. Like the previous transaction, should you choose to use a credit card, 2% of it gets lopped off in Wilmington Delaware before it reaches it's final destination. your waiters are they employees or hired as outside contractors? now you may be able to talk exclusively about being a restaurant owner but i know i can talk about being a customer....i have NEVER decided to enter into another transaction with a waiter...as a customer i view that as a single transaction...and we know that old saying....The customer is always right!....therefore since I am a customer and you are an owner, I am right and you are wrong ....do you make your wait staff supply their own pens and order forms too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godtomsatan Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 You have chosen the convenience of the credit card at the expense of a 2% hit to said merchant. As I said, I believe the assumption would be that the 2% is factored into the $50 said merchant charged for the meal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 ok i see when can go round and round about it and no one is going to have their mind changed but answer me this question.... if the 2% is such a small % of your overall expense then why do you pass it on to the servers instead of just eating it? A. [H8Tank] Because you are a cheap bastard [/H8Tank] B.Because I can. C. Puddy Who said 2% was a small anything of anything? Looking at expenses that way is a quick trip to bankruptcy. The only difference between this cost and every other one is that it seems to create an illogical knee jerk reaction. I mentioned that I start my dishwashers at about 35% higher than minimum wage. Why should I do that? I mean, if there was ever a job that has "minimum wage" written all over that, it's washing dishes. I can assure you that I am well above my industry average (even locally) in terms of how I pay them. Which is why I don't ever lose those guys either. But I suppose the answer is b. After all, regardless of whatever irrational emotional angles you want to look at this, it is simply a matter of compensation. Some places give their employees heath insurance. Some places obviously pay the credit card fees on behalf of their employees. Neither of these are fringe benefits I offer my employees. I have a finite amount of money that I can afford to allocate towards employee compensation and I choose to pay my lowest tiered employees a living wage rather than pay extra to cover my highest paid ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 i'm just glad detlef is finally thinking like a good republican. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggerz Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 Who said 2% was a small anything of anything? i could be wrong but coulda have sworn(will have to go back and ck the thread) that you said it wasnt that big a deal or something like that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 your waiters are they employees or hired as outside contractors? now you may be able to talk exclusively about being a restaurant owner but i know i can talk about being a customer....i have NEVER decided to enter into another transaction with a waiter...as a customer i view that as a single transaction...and we know that old saying....The customer is always right!....therefore since I am a customer and you are an owner, I am right and you are wrong ....do you make your wait staff supply their own pens and order forms too? To what extent should I be at the whim of the customer's ideals. I find out the cut your cashier ends up getting from the teddy bear sales you do each day amount to about $15/hour. I think that's robbery. I mean, the nerve! When I buy a teddybear from you, I would expect more of that to end up in her pocket! If you don't give her a raise, I'm never shopping here again! I mean, the only difference here is that waiters are compensated by this rather bizarre manner. While everyone else just goes to work and gets a check every few weeks, they work on a strange version of commission. So, like each and every single person working in the world. The absolute only thing that matters is whether or not they are being fairly compensated for their work. If you are of the opinion that the $15-$25 dollars per hour my waiters walk home with each day is unfair, that's the only thing to get bent out of shape about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 i could be wrong but coulda have sworn(will have to go back and ck the thread) that you said it wasnt that big a deal or something like that For one person to cover their own spread. It is not much. For one person to pay for everyone's, it adds up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 This thread was extremely fun to read. The differing viewpoints were interesting. If it were me, I'd raise the price of my food to take care of th 2% rather than having the wait staff pay it, but that is just me. When an owner gives one of my superintendents a bottle of scotch at the end of a project for a job well done, I don't demand a swig to make up for the bank transfer fees and stuff, I have other ways of picking up miscellaneous expenses like that with out affecting my supers ability to enjoy a good buzz. But that is just me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted December 3, 2007 Share Posted December 3, 2007 i'm just glad detlef is finally thinking like a good republican. I've been in the huddle since 2003. There haven't been a whole lot of "good republicans" to get behind in American politics during that time. Of course, the irony is that one can see this policy as rather left leaning in terms of distribution of wealth. Assuming that there's a finite amount of money to spend on labor (and there certainly is barring an increase in sales). I have chosen to spend more of that on the lowest rungs at the expense of the highest ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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