WaterMan Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 Uh, I believe the correct nomenclature is "camel humpers". That's sort of like Saddam's air force that we were so afraid of dropping WMDs, flying camels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaxfactor Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 I have heard of the Japanese torture method of putting bamboo shoots up someon'e fingernails. I have never heard of "waterboarding". Can someone please fill me in on the exact method here. Not that I'm going to use it on my fellow Postal employees or anything..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
untateve Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 I have heard of the Japanese torture method of putting bamboo shoots up someon'e fingernails. I have never heard of "waterboarding". Can someone please fill me in on the exact method here. Not that I'm going to use it on my fellow Postal employees or anything..... Water boarding as it is currently described involves strapping a person to an inclined board, with his feet raised and his head lowered. The interrogators bind the person's arms and legs so he can't move at all, and they cover his face. In some descriptions, the person is gagged, and some sort of cloth covers his nose and mouth; in others, his face is wrapped in cellophane. The interrogator then repeatedly pours water onto the person's face. Depending on the exact setup, the water may or may not actually get into the person's mouth and nose; but the physical experience of being underneath a wave of water seems to be secondary to the psychological experience. The person's mind believes he is drowning, and his gag reflex kicks in as if he were choking on all that water falling on his face. How effective is water boarding? CIA members who've undergone water boarding as part of their training have lasted an average of 14 seconds before begging to be released. The Navy SEALs once used the technique in their counter-interrogation training, but they stopped because the trainees could not survive it without breaking, which was bad for morale. When the CIA used the water-boarding technique on al-Qaeda operative and supposed "9/11 mastermind" Khalid Sheik Mohammed, he reportedly lasted more than two minutes before confessing to everything of which he was accused. Anonymous CIA sources report that Mohammed's interrogators were impressed. Most CIA officials say water boarding is not torture, although many see it as a poor interrogation method because it scares the prisoner so much you can't trust anything he tells you. Senator John McCain, who was tortured as a POW during the Vietnam War, says water boarding is definitely a form of torture. Human rights groups agree unanimously that "simulated drowning," causing the prisoner to believe he is about to die, is undoubtedly a form of psychological torture. The international community recognizes "mock executions" as a form of torture, and many place water boarding in that category. In 1947, a Japanese soldier who used water boarding against a U.S. citizen during World War II was sentenced to 15 years in U.S. prison for committing a war crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 (edited) I have heard of the Japanese torture method of putting bamboo shoots up someon'e fingernails. I have never heard of "waterboarding". Can someone please fill me in on the exact method here. Not that I'm going to use it on my fellow Postal employees or anything..... The Japanese did simulated drowning too. There are videos of it on line. You could ask the Bush Justice Dept official(Larsen I think) who trying to prove it was legal had it done to himself but after it was done called it torture. It's simulated drowning but even when done carefully the lung fills with some water meaning it is attempted drowning. Strap someone ot a board put a rag in his mouth and pour water into the drag while somewhat upside down. The Rendition movie shows it being done so maybe it'll educate people. The biggest issue is does it work? When we did it to curveball he said what his captors wanted to hear and it was false, leading to C Powell's testimony before the Iraq War. The trouble is they may or may not tell you the truth. You don't know. Edited March 9, 2008 by Randall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isleseeya Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 Read this all closely ...poor argument from polk's side as many direct questions went unanswered ...heck of a spin job Never answered could properly explain his original statement " not to consider torture is evil " And by the way it is ..period But to each his own ...we move on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 Water boarding as it is currently described involves strapping a person to an inclined board, with his feet raised and his head lowered. The interrogators bind the person's arms and legs so he can't move at all, and they cover his face. In some descriptions, the person is gagged, and some sort of cloth covers his nose and mouth; in others, his face is wrapped in cellophane. The interrogator then repeatedly pours water onto the person's face. Depending on the exact setup, the water may or may not actually get into the person's mouth and nose; but the physical experience of being underneath a wave of water seems to be secondary to the psychological experience. The person's mind believes he is drowning, and his gag reflex kicks in as if he were choking on all that water falling on his face. How effective is water boarding? CIA members who've undergone water boarding as part of their training have lasted an average of 14 seconds before begging to be released. The Navy SEALs once used the technique in their counter-interrogation training, but they stopped because the trainees could not survive it without breaking, which was bad for morale. When the CIA used the water-boarding technique on al-Qaeda operative and supposed "9/11 mastermind" Khalid Sheik Mohammed, he reportedly lasted more than two minutes before confessing to everything of which he was accused. Anonymous CIA sources report that Mohammed's interrogators were impressed. Most CIA officials say water boarding is not torture, although many see it as a poor interrogation method because it scares the prisoner so much you can't trust anything he tells you. Senator John McCain, who was tortured as a POW during the Vietnam War, says water boarding is definitely a form of torture. Human rights groups agree unanimously that "simulated drowning," causing the prisoner to believe he is about to die, is undoubtedly a form of psychological torture. The international community recognizes "mock executions" as a form of torture, and many place water boarding in that category. In 1947, a Japanese soldier who used water boarding against a U.S. citizen during World War II was sentenced to 15 years in U.S. prison for committing a war crime. So... you're saying that it's worse than Marky Mark? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 When the CIA used the water-boarding technique on al-Qaeda operative and supposed "9/11 mastermind" Khalid Sheik Mohammed, he reportedly lasted more than two minutes before confessing to everything of which he was accused. Anonymous CIA sources report that Mohammed's interrogators were impressed. Most CIA officials say water boarding is not torture, although many see it as a poor interrogation method because it scares the prisoner so much you can't trust anything he tells you. So in other words, waterboarding gets you all the information you ask for, but it's unreliable because the prisoner will tell you ANYTHING you want to hear, whether he knows it or not, to avoid the torture. Ergo, it's unreliable, which makes it ineffective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SheikYerbuti Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 So in other words, Marky Mark gets you all the information you ask for, but it's unreliable because the prisoner will tell you ANYTHING you want to hear, whether he knows it or not, to avoid the Marky Mark. Ergo, it's unreliable, which makes it ineffective. Marky Mark---> : <----Suspected Terrorist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polksalet Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 So in other words, waterboarding gets you all the information you ask for, but it's unreliable because the prisoner will tell you ANYTHING you want to hear, whether he knows it or not, to avoid the torture. Ergo, it's unreliable, which makes it ineffective. Do you believe that if a criminal is threatened with jail they might give you disinformation to get out of jail? If so, then should we do away with the penal system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 Do you believe that if a criminal is threatened with jail they might give you disinformation to get out of jail? If so, then should we do away with the penal system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 Do you believe that if a criminal is threatened with jail they might give you disinformation to get out of jail? If so, then should we do away with the penal system? I want you to tell me more about how the US was just like Hitler for fighting him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polksalet Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 y or n? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isleseeya Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 Get some rest and fresh air polk ...you should feel better soon :rollseyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
untateve Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 Do you believe that if a criminal is threatened with jail they might give you disinformation to get out of jail? If so, then should we do away with the penal system? There are times when you make a cogent argument. There are other times when you do not. Criminals are typically incarcerated due to the evidence against them, not due to what they say/confess. Again, is torture against our soliders evil or simply, as you say, a bad decision? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whomper Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 The problem is, who gets to decide "specific situations?" Who gets to decide "extreme tactics?" Who do you trust with that kind of power/decision making? When the CIA used the water-boarding technique on al-Qaeda operative and supposed "9/11 mastermind" Khalid Sheik Mohammed, he reportedly lasted more than two minutes before confessing to everything of which he was accused. That is an example of what I have no problem with Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
untateve Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 That is an example of what I have no problem with The problem is, under torture, an individual will confess to anything and provide whatever the interrogator wants to hear, just to make the torture stop. The information you receive cannot be relied upon. That is, if you want to put aside that whole "evil" thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Neutron Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 What ever happened to dark ops? Do we really need public policy on torture? From a general standpoint, I am against torture. Even evil terrorists should not be subjected to rap music. Seriously, once in a while (due to the immidiacy of an actual threat) there may be a justified call for cutting some scumbag's fingers off one at a time, but instituting torture as a policy to get information is a bad idea. It pretty much makes us just like the guys we're fighting and feeds the extremism fire - kinda exactly what we don't want to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whomper Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 The problem is, under torture, an individual will confess to anything and provide whatever the interrogator wants to hear, just to make the torture stop. The information you receive cannot be relied upon. That is, if you want to put aside that whole "evil" thing. So how do you suggest we get information out of these people if they are not cooperating with our non "evil" methods ? Again I dont agree with or believe in extreme tactics being # 1 or even # 2 option. But if we keep feeding creampuffs to these guys and they dont deliver what we ask I say we kick it up a notch. As far as false info I say we hold them until we can verify their info if thats possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Neutron Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 So how do you suggest we get information out of these people This is a key problem with this issue. Who are these people? Some of them are bad guys, no doubt. I think it's safe to say that some of them are innocent. We have innocent people sitting prison in this country that received due process. The "suspected terrorists" we have sitting camps all over the world received no due process and were captured with a pretty broad net thrown out there because we didn't know what else to do. Some of these people have the wrong friends or were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Should they be tortured? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
untateve Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 So how do you suggest we get information out of these people if they are not cooperating with our non "evil" methods ? Again I dont agree with or believe in extreme tactics being # 1 or even # 2 option. But if we keep feeding creampuffs to these guys and they dont deliver what we ask I say we kick it up a notch. As far as false info I say we hold them until we can verify their info if thats possible. I don't know how to best get info. I do know, that under torture, you would eventually confess to sleeping with Polk. You would also confess to liking it and wishing it could happen repeatedly. So confessions under torture are useless. (In this scenario, I'm assuming that you don't enjoy 'relations' with Polk.) And in your scenario--the tortured individual gives us bad info under torture. We hold him and go check it out. We let him know that what he's told us is crap. He swears he doesn't have any info. We torture him some more, he gives us more bad info. We check it out. Rinse, repeat. And Jimmy is right--we are essentially taking the first step toward making torture our stated policy. It would also appear that I have less trust than others of you that we will judiciously apply torture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whomper Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 (edited) This is a key problem with this issue. Who are these people? Some of them are bad guys, no doubt. I think it's safe to say that some of them are innocent. We have innocent people sitting prison in this country that received due process. The "suspected terrorists" we have sitting camps all over the world received no due process and were captured with a pretty broad net thrown out there because we didn't know what else to do. Some of these people have the wrong friends or were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Should they be tortured? You're right. Which is why I said a few times in this thread in specific situations I dont have a problem with it . Unta asked who decides the specific situation . I say we have people that are in positions in our govt to handle these situations and decisions. Ill go back to Khalid Sheik Mohammed. We knew we caught a big shot in al queda and he wasnt talking under our "decent and logical" methods so they upped the ante. I have no problem with that. Do I have a problem with Abu Ghraib and the way we acted were protraited there like a bunch of lowlife clowns ? Of course I do. If your going to tell me torture is our new policy from the get go on everyone we interrogate I will be just as appalled as you. If you are going to tell me we are going to go to that well once in a while when it is warranted and will help us and normal methods are not yielding results . I can live with that. Edited March 9, 2008 by whomper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
untateve Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 If your going to tell me torture is our new policy from the get go on everyone we interrogate I will be just as appalled as you. If you are going to tell me we are going to go to that well once in a while when it is warranted and will help us and normal methods are not yielding results . I can live with that. I think the reason we disagree is that I do not trust individuals in the armed forces/cia/etc to mete out torture in any kind of controlled and "appropriate" manner as much as you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whomper Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 (edited) I think the reason we disagree is that I do not trust individuals in the armed forces/cia/etc to mete out torture in any kind of controlled and "appropriate" manner as much as you do. I agree . Our govt hasnt given us much to believe in by way of decisions made with our military so I certainly see your reasoning. I still think we have to trust that some , not all, of these guys would make good decisions in regards to our topic. Edited March 9, 2008 by whomper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaterMan Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 I say we adopt every tactic China uses. We all ready have torture, what's next...oh yeah, Communism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
untateve Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 I agree . Our govt hasnt given us much to believe in by way of decisions made with our military so I certainly see your reasoning. I still think we have to trust that some , not all, of these guys would make good decisions in regards to our topic. Now that we have some understanding of each other, tell me, why did you sleep with Polk? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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