Azazello1313 Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 There would be a massive shift in overall percentage of taxes paid coming from more middle to lower class income earners and less on the uppermiddle to wealthy....they just cannot consume as much as they earn.... that is silly. money has no intrinsic value, it is only a medium for buying things. even if you save and/or invest all your money, it is only so you can buy more things later on. unless you are going to burn it for fuel or make bricks out of it, ultimately the only thing to do with money is to spend it. it has to turn into "consumption" eventually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaP'N GRuNGe Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 Does a Benz or Bimmer not cost more than a Corolla or Focus? No, Buffet does not spend his whole income. But the guy making $30K a year and rearing three kids pays zero or next to it after the prebate. By the same token, that guy gets an incredible percentage of his taxes completely refunded to him. And Buffet's percentage refunded is a pittance comparatively. I would think those engaged in wealth envy would love the fair tax. It only really hits hard for big purchases. You're also forgetting something very simple - corporations don't pay taxes. They simply pass those costs along to consumers, or shareholders. When that goes away, all products in the marketplace cost less. And that helps the little guy with his toothpaste, groceries and vacation a lot more than the big guy with his $1MM+ house and $100K car. But those products now have a 23% sales tax attached to them, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westvirginia Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 So those ultra wealthy simply spend their money overseas to avoid the Fair Tax. And those foreigners stop buying goods here in America to avoid the Fair Tax as well... OK, what are they spending their money on? Clothes? Cars? A home? Oh, I know, they're buying their toothpaste from Latvia and their bannanas straight from Ecuador. Supercuts, when the imbedded income tax component is gone, the 23% sales tax is no increase in price. That's why Linder and the founders of the movement set it at 23%, not some arbitrary number. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westvirginia Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 But those products now have a 23% sales tax attached to them, right? But they are less the imbedded income/FICA component they've carried for decades now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yo mama Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 So those ultra wealthy simply spend their money overseas to avoid the Fair Tax. And those foreigners stop buying goods here in America to avoid the Fair Tax as well... And lets not forget about the gigantic black market we'd be creating. As long as there is tax, there will be those who try to escape it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westvirginia Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 But those products now have a 23% sales tax attached to them, right? Dude, admit it. You don't like this idea because you don't like the idea of those "evil rich people" having more control over their lives without daddy government making sure they pay "their fair share". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westvirginia Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 And lets not forget about the gigantic black market we'd be creating. As long as there is tax, there will be those who try to escape it. So you send the FBI (or expand the secret service, they're dept of treas, right?) to crack down on black marketeers. As long as there are speed limits, there will be those who try to speed. As long as there are DUI limits, there will be those who try to drive drunk. As long as there are... You're brighter than this, or I thought you were... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaP'N GRuNGe Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 Dude, admit it. You don't like this idea because you don't like the idea of those "evil rich people" having more control over their lives without daddy government making sure they pay "their fair share". Not at all. As a matter of fact for some time I've thought conceptually the idea of a consumpution tax as opposed to an income tax is a pretty good idea. I'm just skeptical about massive shifts in our tax structure, given that the stratification of wealth in this country is already growing exponetially every day. There's nothing "evil" about people making money. More power to them. I just worry about the long term health of a country filled increasing with a handful of people holding all the wealth and the rest increasingly losing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 OK, what are they spending their money on? Clothes? Cars? A home? Oh, I know, they're buying their toothpaste from Latvia and their bannanas straight from Ecuador. Supercuts, when the imbedded income tax component is gone, the 23% sales tax is no increase in price. That's why Linder and the founders of the movement set it at 23%, not some arbitrary number. well, sure...but grunge makes a pretty good point as far as, well, let's say you're a balla and you want to buy a million dollar yacht. you'd be stupid NOT to travel to a country that gets most of its govt revenue from an income tax versus a sales tax to consummate the sale. you can see pretty easily how these guys would be setting it up so all of their "income" happens in the US while all of their purchases happen elsewhere, and it's not taxed on either end. I'm sure these are loopholes that could somehow be closed, but they do pose some obstacles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H8tank Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 handful of people holding all the wealth and the rest increasingly losing it. Nice little socialist lie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westvirginia Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 Not at all. As a matter of fact for some time I've thought conceptually the idea of a consumpution tax as opposed to an income tax is a pretty good idea. I'm just skeptical about massive shifts in our tax structure, given that the stratification of wealth in this country is already growing exponetially every day. There's nothing "evil" about people making money. More power to them. I just worry about the long term health of a country filled increasing with a handful of people holding all the wealth and the rest increasingly losing it. You know what, I actually believe you. Since I believe you, I'm gonn a edamacate ya: Who has the money for lobbyists and politician-purchases? The wealthy. Therefore, under the current system, the people you're most worried about hoarding all the wealth, are the ones with both means and motive to "adjust" the tax laws to their benefit. Fair tax has no loopholes for this tax shelter or that deduction. You buy a limo to use in this country, you're gonna pay the 23%. And if your corporation buys it for you to use, it's not a deduction from income for them - they still pay 23%! My one really problem with the libertarians is I worry about the tyrrany of money. That even though you and I are free to make choices, a monopoly could exist. Well, this would help break things like that. If you look at the "combinations" Teddy broke up at the turn of the century, those boys had politicians, papers and laws in their pockets. Take away some of these folks biggest reasons to buy politicians (and if money isn't the biggest reason...) and you end a bunch of government corruption right there. The fair tax assuages a big bunch of my fear about the tyrrany of money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicCEO Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 Who has the money for lobbyists and politician-purchases? The wealthy. Therefore, under the current system, the people you're most worried about hoarding all the wealth, are the ones with both means and motive to "adjust" the tax laws to their benefit. Fair tax has no loopholes for this tax shelter or that deduction. Why wouldn't I believe that this whole "Fair Tax" impetus is inspired by those same people with money? It's getting a lot of press... it's got a website... and it's even got a handy-dandy Bush-Republican sounding name... "The Fair Tax"... kinda like the "Patriot Act" which any Patriot would have been disgusted by, or the "Clear Skies Act", which rolled back the Clean Air Act to make pollution worse. Sorry, I don't buy it. The people pushing to reform taxes aren't people like you and me. They are people with the most to gain from it... which is to say... the people with the most money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmarc117 Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 Not at all. As a matter of fact for some time I've thought conceptually the idea of a consumpution tax as opposed to an income tax is a pretty good idea. I'm just skeptical about massive shifts in our tax structure, given that the stratification of wealth in this country is already growing exponetially every day. There's nothing "evil" about people making money. More power to them. I just worry about the long term health of a country filled increasing with a handful of people holding all the wealth and the rest increasingly losing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westvirginia Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 Why wouldn't I believe that this whole "Fair Tax" impetus is inspired by those same people with money? It's getting a lot of press... it's got a website... and it's even got a handy-dandy Bush-Republican sounding name... "The Fair Tax"... kinda like the "Patriot Act" which any Patriot would have been disgusted by, or the "Clear Skies Act", which rolled back the Clean Air Act to make pollution worse. Sorry, I don't buy it. The people pushing to reform taxes aren't people like you and me. They are people with the most to gain from it... which is to say... the people with the most money. You're just jaded. You know how I feel about politicians, but John Linder is one I'd trust to leave my mother, wife and daughters alone with. It's his idea, and I think he's a genuinely good man with liberty-minded ideals. Just go read it at fairtax.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Sacrebleu Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 I received a letter this week from a guy I do some business with. He had an interesting string of statistics that I thought I'd share with you (I'm assuming these are accurate). TAXES: In 1979, the top 1% of earners paid 18.3% of all income taxes. In 2004, the top 1% of earners paid 37% of all income taxes. In 2004, the top 10% of earners (those with income over $87,300) paid 71% of all income taxes. LITIGATION: Over 1 million lawsuits are filed in the US every year. 97% of attorneys world wide practice in the United States. PUNCHLINE: Taxes and litigation are the most serious drains on your ability to accumulate assets during your lifetime. How does that LITIGATION figure in any way prove that litigation is the "most serious drain on your ability to accumulate assets during your lifetime"? Since we are into oversimplification as an argument mode, let me ad this: The United States is the greatest, freest nation in the world, where determination and moxie determine a man's fate. 97% of attorneys world wide practice in the US. Punchline: lawyers are what make this country great. Actually, all kidding aside, it would be interesting to see the rise in lawyers per capita in the US, and rise of US as world power in history. I would not be surprised if the two had very similar curves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
millerx Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 (edited) Why wouldn't I believe that this whole "Fair Tax" impetus is inspired by those same people with money? It's getting a lot of press... it's got a website... and it's even got a handy-dandy Bush-Republican sounding name... "The Fair Tax"... kinda like the "Patriot Act" which any Patriot would have been disgusted by, or the "Clear Skies Act", which rolled back the Clean Air Act to make pollution worse. Sorry, I don't buy it. The people pushing to reform taxes aren't people like you and me. They are people with the most to gain from it... which is to say... the people with the most money. Wow. You're comments come across as rather cynical and conspiratorial... Actually, all of the press it has been getting, as you call it, has been from a grassroots effort because people believe in the ideals of it, have researched it, and are sick of the corruptness that comes from the status quo. The handy-dandy name is just a selling point as is any thing you are trying to have people "buy in" to. It developed by people who believe in the individual and not big government and was adopted by the libertarian which is mainly about individual rights and freedoms. If it were republican, I would place a Reagan-Rebpublican title on it, but... there are also Democrats that are supporting it as well. As a popular radio talk show host where I live describes it, "It would be the biggest shift of power back to the individuals of this country in our history and take the power of corruptness out of the hands of the politicians". This in itself lends most people to at least consider it. Edited April 15, 2008 by millerx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yo mama Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 (edited) Actually, all kidding aside, it would be interesting to see the rise in lawyers per capita in the US, and rise of US as world power in history. I would not be surprised if the two had very similar curves We have a lot of lawyers for three main reasons: (1) we're a nation of laws; (2) the practice of law can be a profitable endeavor; and (3) Americans LOVE to sue each other. The laws of supply and demand dictate that there are only as many lawyers as there are clients willing to pay them. (Not necessarily on a 1:1 to ratio, but you get my point). And we know the initial post was bunk (to a certain extent) because as of 2007, the US had only 70% (not 97%) of the worlds lawyers. Its still a lot, but part of that is because we're one of the largest - yet most organized - countries in the world. Want to see what happens to a large, disorganized land mass where the rule of law isn't enforced by guys in ties? Go vacation in Africa. Lawyers may cost money, but for most of us it sure beats settling petty disputes with AKs. Edited April 15, 2008 by yo mama Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 I renegotiated my last raise to be less then what they wanted to give me because it put me just barely into a new tax bracket which would have resulted in a net increase just barley over what I currently made. After negotiations we settled on a salary that put me $1 under the tax bracket. You should have let me know. If you'd sent me the dollars subject to the higher rate I'd have paid the tax on them for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SheikYerbuti Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 Sorry, I don't buy it. The people pushing to reform taxes aren't people like you and me. They are people with the most to gain from it... which is to say... the people with the most money. Off topic, but you just reminded me of a story. I was sitting at a blackjack table when I was 21 years old. The guy next to me had 16 against the dealer's King. The following conversation took place: Dealer: Would you like to surrender? This casino offers it. Player: I don't know what that means. Dealer: You give up your hand now and lose half your bet. Player: Is it to my advantage to do that? Dealer: The house is offering it to you. . .what do you think? Very valuable lesson. OK, back on subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaP'N GRuNGe Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 well, sure...but grunge makes a pretty good point as far as, well, let's say you're a balla and you want to buy a million dollar yacht. you'd be stupid NOT to travel to a country that gets most of its govt revenue from an income tax versus a sales tax to consummate the sale. you can see pretty easily how these guys would be setting it up so all of their "income" happens in the US while all of their purchases happen elsewhere, and it's not taxed on either end. I'm sure these are loopholes that could somehow be closed, but they do pose some obstacles. Excuse me whilst I fall over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 well, sure...but grunge makes a pretty good point as far as, well, let's say you're a balla and you want to buy a million dollar yacht. you'd be stupid NOT to travel to a country that gets most of its govt revenue from an income tax versus a sales tax to consummate the sale. you can see pretty easily how these guys would be setting it up so all of their "income" happens in the US while all of their purchases happen elsewhere, and it's not taxed on either end. I'm sure these are loopholes that could somehow be closed, but they do pose some obstacles. Couldn't customs handle this? I mean, it's not like you can just have goods shipped in from other countries free from inspection as it is. I'm sure once the incentive to sneak stuff in to avoid taxes that would become even more difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 Why wouldn't I believe that this whole "Fair Tax" impetus is inspired by those same people with money? It's getting a lot of press... it's got a website... and it's even got a handy-dandy Bush-Republican sounding name... "The Fair Tax"... kinda like the "Patriot Act" which any Patriot would have been disgusted by, or the "Clear Skies Act", which rolled back the Clean Air Act to make pollution worse. Sorry, I don't buy it. The people pushing to reform taxes aren't people like you and me. They are people with the most to gain from it... which is to say... the people with the most money. Aren't the people pushing pretty much every policy that has any chance in hell of passing the people with the most money? Name one significant public figure pushing an agenda who's not loaded. By your standards, nothing is worth voting for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheShiznit Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 Does a Benz or Bimmer not cost more than a Corolla or Focus? No, Buffet does not spend his whole income. But the guy making $30K a year and rearing three kids pays zero or next to it after the prebate. By the same token, that guy gets an incredible percentage of his taxes completely refunded to him. And Buffet's percentage refunded is a pittance comparatively. I would think those engaged in wealth envy would love the fair tax. It only really hits hard for big purchases. You're also forgetting something very simple - corporations don't pay taxes. They simply pass those costs along to consumers, or shareholders. When that goes away, all products in the marketplace cost less. And that helps the little guy with his toothpaste, groceries and vacation a lot more than the big guy with his $1MM+ house and $100K car. Very cogent point there in the last paragraph. I completely didn't even think of that angle. However, I have no wealth envy...I like wealth...I help create it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheShiznit Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 that is silly. money has no intrinsic value, it is only a medium for buying things. even if you save and/or invest all your money, it is only so you can buy more things later on. unless you are going to burn it for fuel or make bricks out of it, ultimately the only thing to do with money is to spend it. it has to turn into "consumption" eventually. Re-read and then repost.... Of course money has intrinsic value...it either retains it or loses it...depending on how long you hold it and if you earn enough to have it keep pace with inflation. BTW....Carnegie's family is still spending his money....trusts protect money versus letting it be spent. However, if you would have read my other posts on Henry George....then you would have understood where I was coming from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beaumont Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 Ah, the annual Fair Tax love-in ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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