Another Pit Bull Attack

[Squeegiebo]

Ferrets stink.

[keggerz]

Seriously? You do realize going to the "anything can happen" card is tantamount to waiving the white flag.

I don't have a dog in this fight but if people think that a Lab or other "lovable" dog can't do any damage then they

are being sorta ignorant with regards to dogs....just the other nite on TV most shocking video 2 or 3 where a police dog handler

had a german shepard and a journalist was doing an interview and the dog snapped up and bit the guys face(they were sitting on a curb or the ground)...it was unprovoked...now granted German Shepards are or can be seen as more dangerous but the point is truly that a dog is an animal and there are times when animals do NOT act the way we want or expect them to.

[Sugar Magnolia]

ANY dog can be dangerous....the bigger and stronger it is the more damage it can do....teeth are teeth and an animal is an animal...so if you think that a lab or any other "accepted" easy going breed can't go bad then you are fooling yourself.....and fwiw, the Cesar Milan(sp?) might be a bit nuts but he knows what he is doing...

 

 

did you know that Royal Standard Poodles were classified as WAR DOGS and used in WW II

 

I have a difference of opinion that Cesar Milan knows what he's doing. Maybe he has been successful with his methods with his own dogs but his methods do not translate well to the average pet owner; which is why National Geographic has a disclaimer-do not try this on your own.

[keggerz]

I have a difference of opinion that Cesar Milan knows what he's doing. Maybe he has been successful with his methods with his own dogs but his methods do not translate well to the average pet owner; which is why National Geographic has a disclaimer-do not try this on your own.

Just because his methods do not translate well to the average pet owner doesn't mean he doesn't know what he is doing.

 

and I would guess that the warning has more to do with the litigious nature of our society and NG not wanting Joe Q. Public bringing a suit against them because "I saw and heard Cesar do this on his show so I THOUGHT it would be safe for me to walk up to that stray dog and make him my b1tch" more so then NG caring about how it translates to the average pet owner.

 

 

edit: and I can appreciate and accept that you have a different opinion

Edited July 7, 2008 by keggerz

[Sugar Magnolia]

Just because his methods do not translate well to the average pet owner doesn't mean he doesn't know what he is doing.

 

and I would guess that the warning has more to do with the litigious nature of our society and NG not wanting Joe Q. Public bringing a suit against them because "I saw and heard Cesar do this on his show so I THOUGHT it would be safe for me to walk up to that stray dog and make him my b1tch" more so then NG caring about how it translates to the average pet owner.

 

 

edit: and I can appreciate and accept that you have a different opinion

 

It is a difference of opinion but want to state that no other dog training TV program I've ever seen has used that kind of disclaimer. Cesar knows what he is doing with his own dogs, but I feel the average pet owner can not follow through on his methods and succeed, and they will try to emulate him. Cesar has a special gift in communicating to dogs-we mortal folks do not.

 

My training approach is fair to the dog, is a do no harm approach, and anyone can accomplish and I get results without putting them in postion to be bitten by their dog which could end up a death sentence for their dog. I deal with dogs as dangerous as the ones on the Dog Whisperer and I have never been bitten by a dog, because I don't provoke them- I see Cesar bitten all the time on his program. I also don't diagnose every behavioral problem as the dog trying to be dominate and take over leadership of the household. Dogs mostly aggress because of fear, stress and frustation. I have actually only had two cases where I felt the dogs were behaving the way they were because it was their desire to be totally dominate over his owners, and was willing to harm their owners if they did not submit;and those dogs were very scary-and the only dogs I have been afraid of.

 

I set up the dog to succeed, mark when they do it right and reward, so they want to do it right again. I find out what causes the fear, stress and frustration and remove it from the dog's environment, I work on building a relationship of trust and mutual respect between owner and dog. The dog feels good about doing it right, instead of fearing the consequences of doing it wrong-no different than different philosophies of parenting children. I use methods based on current scientific principles and my mentors are PhD applied animal behaviorists. Cesar's methods are not new. He uses the Koehler principles used back in the 40's, 50's and 60's and he's bringing those methods back to the limelight I use positive reinforcement, counter conditioning and desensitization. If there are any psychologist in Huddle (Bier?) they know these methods are used on people as well to help with fear behaviors.

 

I'm not saying Cesar's methods don't work, but I feel my methods provide more success and you do not have to intimidate your dog to make them behave. Plus I will not use methods that put me or my client in position to be bitten by their dog. I have even had two former clients of Cesar's who were from So. Cal and moved to Bend. They came to me because of aggression issues and Cesar's was not able to help their dog-and I did. They were both dog-dog agression cases.

 

An interesting read: http://www.stevedalepetworld.com/index.php...3&Itemid=71

[KSUChiefsTarheelFan]

It is a difference of opinion but want to state that no other dog training TV program I've ever seen has used that kind of disclaimer. Cesar knows what he is doing with his own dogs, but I feel the average pet owner can not follow through on his methods and succeed, and they will try to emulate him. Cesar has a special gift in communicating to dogs-we mortal folks do not.

 

My training approach is fair to the dog, is a do no harm approach, and anyone can accomplish and I get results without putting them in postion to be bitten by their dog which could end up a death sentence for their dog. I deal with dogs as dangerous as the ones on the Dog Whisperer and I have never been bitten by a dog, because I don't provoke them- I see Cesar bitten all the time on his program. I also don't diagnose every behavioral problem as the dog trying to be dominate and take over leadership of the household. Dogs mostly aggress because of fear, stress and frustation. I have actually only had two cases where I felt the dogs were behaving the way they were because it was their desire to be totally dominate over his owners, and was willing to harm their owners if they did not submit;and those dogs were very scary-and the only dogs I have been afraid of.

 

I set up the dog to succeed, mark when they do it right and reward, so they want to do it right again. I find out what causes the fear, stress and frustration and remove it from the dog's environment, I work on building a relationship of trust and mutual respect between owner and dog. The dog feels good about doing it right, instead of fearing the consequences of doing it wrong-no different than different philosophies of parenting children. I use methods based on current scientific principles and my mentors are PhD applied animal behaviorists. Cesar's methods are not new. He uses the Koehler principles used back in the 40's, 50's and 60's and he's bringing those methods back to the limelight I use positive reinforcement, counter conditioning and desensitization. If there are any psychologist in Huddle (Bier?) they know these methods are used on people as well to help with fear behaviors.

 

I'm not saying Cesar's methods don't work, but I feel my methods provide more success and you do not have to intimidate your dog to make them behave. Plus I will not use methods that put me or my client in position to be bitten by their dog. I have even had two former clients of Cesar's who were from So. Cal and moved to Bend. They came to me because of aggression issues and Cesar's was not able to help their dog-and I did. They were both dog-dog agression cases.

 

An interesting read: http://www.stevedalepetworld.com/index.php...3&Itemid=71

 

Sounds like they hired the wrong guy to do the show....

 

 

When he does his shows he leads by example. Every dog is different, and needs to be handled different. He tells the clients to assert themselves as the pack leader IN THEIR OWN way.

[detlef]

I don't have a dog in this fight but if people think that a Lab or other "lovable" dog can't do any damage then they

are being sorta ignorant with regards to dogs....just the other nite on TV most shocking video 2 or 3 where a police dog handler

had a german shepard and a journalist was doing an interview and the dog snapped up and bit the guys face(they were sitting on a curb or the ground)...it was unprovoked...now granted German Shepards are or can be seen as more dangerous but the point is truly that a dog is an animal and there are times when animals do NOT act the way we want or expect them to.

Sort of a creative version of the transitive property?

 

Pit Bulls are dangerous

Well, so are Labs

Really?

Sure, see I saw a German Shepherd attack some dude on TV.

 

Now, I'm not absolutely certain, but I don't recall anyone implying that Labs were 100% assured of never attacking anyone. There was somebody who claimed that he could turn any of our dogs into attack dogs and some of us laughed saying that it would take a ton of hard work to get them to do that. However, nobody implied that Pits were the only breed to be careful of nor did they say that any breed was completely 100% safe.

 

However, that's where the "anything can happen" card I mentioned comes into play. See, there's a reason why they send labs into nursing homes to hang with old people or that they're usually the ones you see leading blind people around or that they're the ones that you see photos of children crawling all over. Because, unlike Pits, there's not story after story of them flipping out one day and mauling that same kid. There's not stories of cops having to unload an entire clip into their chest before they stop charging. And, of course, it's no coincidence that they're not the chosen breed for dog fighting either.

 

I mean, if you're simply arguing that it's possible that any breed can flip out, well gee thanks. Well, it's also possible that a meteor can crash through your house and kill your kids regardless of how careful you are so maybe I'll use that next time we're discussing child safety.

 

I mean, I assume that you're not implying that labs are as dangerous as Pits in general.

[Squeegiebo]

The top causes of accidental death for children are traffic accidents and drowning. I bet you let your kids ride in cars, walk on sidewalks, and swim.

[Caveman_Nick]

The top causes of accidental death for children are traffic accidents and drowning. I bet you let your kids ride in cars, walk on sidewalks, and swim.

 

what are the top causes of accidental deaths in kids that play with loaded guns?

[Squeegiebo]

what are the top causes of accidental deaths in kids that play with loaded guns?

 

Dog bite?

[Double Agent]

The top causes of accidental death for children are traffic accidents and drowning. I bet you let your kids ride in cars, walk on sidewalks, and swim.

 

Very good point. Since kids can die doing every day activities...let's say f-it and expose them to all known dangers. Is a 22 month old too young for cocaine?

[Puddy]

Dog bite?

[Squeegiebo]

Very good point. Since kids can die doing every day activities...let's say f-it and expose them to all known dangers. Is a 22 month old too young for cocaine?

 

What a silly example.

[MrTed46]

What a silly example.

 

[detlef]

The top causes of accidental death for children are traffic accidents and drowning. I bet you let your kids ride in cars, walk on sidewalks, and swim.

Question 1: Is that directed at me?

Question 2: What is the point of that statement?

 

If the answer to 1 is yes, I don't have kids, first off and don't intend to. However, surely you're not implying that in light of the fact that more kids die in cars or pools, parents shouldn't think twice about owning a breed of dog that is predisposed to attack or at very least the consequences of those attacks are bound to be more severe.

 

You're going to buy a toy hammer for your child. You understand that no hammer is completely 100% safe because "anything can happen". After all, even with the soft squishly plastic one, he could trip over it, fall the wrong way, and break his neck. So, with that in mind, I suppose there's no good reason to choose that one over the one that seems safe enough but has been shown to unexpectedly shoot sharp spikes from all angles and start spinning out of control towards your child's head.

[Squeegiebo]

Question 2: What is the point of that statement?

 

That swimming pools and automobiles are more dangerous than pit bulls, but we're not seeing threads decrying the evils of cars, swimming pools, and people who own them/allow children near them.

[KSUChiefsTarheelFan]

That swimming pools and automobiles are more dangerous than pit bulls, but we're not seeing threads decrying the evils of cars, swimming pools, and people who own them/allow children near them.

Hey Squeeg....everything you need is RIGHT HERE!

[i_am_the_swammi]

just the other nite on TV most shocking video 2 or 3 where a police dog handler

had a german shepard and a journalist was doing an interview and the dog snapped up and bit the guys face(they were sitting on a curb or the ground)...it was unprovoked...now granted German Shepards are or can be seen as more dangerous but the point is truly that a dog is an animal and there are times when animals do NOT act the way we want or expect them to.

 

I saw the same clip, and this example is a little different...the Sheppard in question was a police dog, and the journalist stupidly put his head/face over the dog's head (thus taking a dominating position). The dog was TRAINED to respond the way he did...his trainer said he would have expected nothing less.

 

Carry on....

[detlef]

That swimming pools and automobiles are more dangerous than pit bulls, but we're not seeing threads decrying the evils of cars, swimming pools, and people who own them/allow children near them.

Any you're a lawyer? Really?

 

That is about the lamest logic I'm sure I'll be confronted with for some time.

 

First off, let's just throw cars out because they've basically become an unavoidable part of life. Unlike owning a dog of any kind, they're not really optional for nearly any parent.

 

So, onto pools. I mean, you don't need to own a pool, right? Well, I wonder how dangerous they are compared to pits when you compare the number of child deaths relative to how many times kids swim each year to pit bull attacks relative to the number of kids exposed to them. I mean, you are actually trying to make a point, right? Not just throw random numbers around that you hope nobody will actually think about?

 

So, let's say the numbers still show pools are more dangerous than pits. That means pools are waaayyy more dangerous than other sensible breeds to own. So, considering the fact that most of us agree that one can't protect our children from everything, if we wanted to relate this to pools, it would go more like this.

 

So the real issue is if there was some kind of particularly dangerous pool to have. Maybe the filter sucks kids in more than most. Maybe there's no shallow end or ladders and it's not easy to grab ahold of the sides. Maybe the surface around the pool is quite slick. Would this be the sort of pool that you would want to own if you had kids?

[Squeegiebo]

Kids drown in oceans, lakes, and rivers too.

[wildcat2334]

That swimming pools and automobiles are more dangerous than pit bulls, but we're not seeing threads decrying the evils of cars, swimming pools, and people who own them/allow children near them.

 

 

absolutely brilliant

 

yer not serious with this logic are you?

[detlef]

Kids drown in oceans, lakes, and rivers too.

So, really you're just trying to be obtuse?

 

None the less, do I have you on record as saying that you'd have no problem letting your young children play with a pit bull?

[TheShiznit]

The top causes of accidental death for children are traffic accidents and drowning. I bet you let your kids ride in cars, walk on sidewalks, and swim.

 

As far as the traffic accidents are concerned...that is a necessary evil. However, you cannot drive with kids anymore unless they are in a protective bubble....so I think those numbers will be going lower and lower. You can own a pool....and with proper supervision...no one dies....improper supervision...someone can die.

 

Now, the kid isn't all of a sudden swimming and the once tacit pool water jumps up and attacks him. I mean, lets get real. Let's also get real in comparing something that is not inherently deady such as a dog attack and compare it to high speed collisions and drowning. I would guess that is you look at total injuries....leading to death or otherwise, dog bite would be top five easy.

[KSUChiefsTarheelFan]

EDIT

 

:sigh:

 

 

 

 

 

Detlef lemmie give an assist...

 

 

 

 

Squeeg, we went thru all of this? The last 250+ posts have pretty much covered everyones opinions on dogs, and lakes, and cars, and pools, and abusive parents, and whether they are dangerous. Pits are dangerous, not all are dangerous, but the breed is now considered, without a doubt a dangerous one. Now is that to say if I had one from when it was a puppy, would it be dangerous? Absolutely not...nor would a kid of mine drown in a lake, pool, mud puddle, or in the back of the car...but if you own a pit, and it bites my kid....you see where we are going with this? I made some statements at first, in this long, now extremely drawn out thread. Statements that after seeing what guys like detlef had to say made me think a little about different breeds of dogs.

 

And DMD closed my thread bout Mr. Horn shooting to unarmed robbers in the back.

 

I wish Mr. Horn would shoot this thread in the back...

 

I think we should all be like

then this wouldn't even be a discussion. Edited July 8, 2008 by KSUChiefsTarheelFan

[SEC=UGA]

That swimming pools and automobiles are more dangerous than pit bulls, but we're not seeing threads decrying the evils of cars, swimming pools, and people who own them/allow children near them.

 

Cars have also killed more people than Mesothelioma or Tobacco... I think you have anew class action, you vulture...